• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[35:28]اَلَمۡ تَرَ اَنَّ اللّٰہَ اَنۡزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً ۚ فَاَخۡرَجۡنَا بِہٖ ثَمَرٰتٍ مُّخۡتَلِفًا اَلۡوَانُہَا ؕ وَ مِنَ الۡجِبَالِ جُدَدٌۢ بِیۡضٌ وَّ حُمۡرٌ مُّخۡتَلِفٌ اَلۡوَانُہَا وَ غَرَابِیۡبُ سُوۡدٌ ﴿۲۸﴾
Dost thou not see that Allah sends down water from the sky and We bring forth therewith fruits of different colours; and among the mountains are streaks white and red, of diverse hues and others raven black;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 35: Fatir

Right, please?

For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.
  1. Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  2. Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  3. Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
  4. Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?
Regards
____________
  • I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
  • "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
  • "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
  • Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I believe the prophets said "thus says the Lord"; the angel says in the Qu'ran "say" and Jesus says His words are the words of God. What do the B men say?

The best way to find out is to read what Baha'u'llah wrote, there are no better Tablets than the ones Baha'u'llah wrote to the kings, rulers religious authorities and peoples of the world where He clearly declared the Message from God for this day.

Thus your choice, here is the link

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

I do not ask you to look, I have no desire for you to look and I suspect you and all I post to will not look.

My only part is to offer the choices, pull the plank from my eye and live the life demanded from what I offer.

I do wish for you and all, to partake of the best choices that life can offer, all if your own free will.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Following is an excerpt from my post #401:
The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[35:28]اَلَمۡ تَرَ اَنَّ اللّٰہَ اَنۡزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً ۚ فَاَخۡرَجۡنَا بِہٖ ثَمَرٰتٍ مُّخۡتَلِفًا اَلۡوَانُہَا ؕ وَ مِنَ الۡجِبَالِ جُدَدٌۢ بِیۡضٌ وَّ حُمۡرٌ مُّخۡتَلِفٌ اَلۡوَانُہَا وَ غَرَابِیۡبُ سُوۡدٌ ﴿۲۸﴾
Dost thou not see that Allah sends down water from the sky and We bring forth therewith fruits of different colours; and among the mountains are streaks white and red, of diverse hues and others raven black;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 35: Fatir

Do our friends in the RF, agree with the truth of the contents of the above Quran verse [35:28], please?
If no, one's arguments, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Surely God would have been more direct and said something like
"Me alone you must worship and me alone should you implore for help.."
Quran 1:5-6

There are many "First Person" verses from G-d in Quran, like:

[15:10]اِنَّا نَحۡنُ نَزَّلۡنَا الذِّکۡرَ* وَ اِنَّا لَہٗ لَحٰفِظُوۡنَ ﴿۱۰﴾
Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 15: Al-Hijr
Another name of Quran is الذِّکۡرَ* or Exhortation.

Doesn't it fulfill the sign of First Person direct Converse of G-d with Muhammad as asked by one and Second Person sign of direct Converse of G-d with Muhammad asked by another friend in the Forum, please?
Right, please?

Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
He/she may, when he may like to.
I thought, meanwhile I engage with our friend @icehorse , if one likes it. Right, please?

Regards

Hi @paarsurrey,

@Muffled said:
I believe I am the evidence for a supreme being.

Do you agree with that? If so, do you think of yourself as a theist or a deist? The reason I ask is because @Muffled 's answer only addresses deism. It does not account for theism.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi @paarsurrey,

@Muffled said:

Do you agree with that? If so, do you think of yourself as a theist or a deist? The reason I ask is because @Muffled 's answer only addresses deism. It does not account for theism.

I am not for these terms/classification "theism" or "deism". I hold to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam.
Why does our friend wants to classify me/us in those terms, please? Please elaborate.

Every person or a thing in the World points firmly, I understand, towards Allah or G-d that it is from Him, is His creation.
I think that was the point of friend @Muffled but it is his right to tell it. Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[35:32]وَ الَّذِیۡۤ اَوۡحَیۡنَاۤ اِلَیۡکَ مِنَ الۡکِتٰبِ ہُوَ الۡحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ بِعِبَادِہٖ لَخَبِیۡرٌۢ بَصِیۡرٌ ﴿۳۲﴾
And the Book which We have revealed to thee is the truth itself, fulfilling that which is before it. Surely, Allah is All-Aware, All-Seeing with respect to His servants.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 35: Fatir

Right, please?

For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.
  1. Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  2. Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  3. Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
  4. Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?
Regards
____________
  • I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
  • "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
  • "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
  • Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I am not for these terms/classification "theism" or "deism". I hold to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam.
Why does our friend wants to classify me/us in those terms, please? Please elaborate.

Every person or a thing in the World points firmly, I understand, towards Allah or G-d that it is from Him, is His creation.
I think that was the point of friend @Muffled but it is his right to tell it. Right, please?

Regards

I will try to summarize my understanding here:

A deist believes that some currently unexplainable entity created the universe.
A theist believes that "their" god, with characteristics that they somehow know about, created the universe.

Those are two very different beliefs.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I will try to summarize my understanding here:

A deist believes that some currently unexplainable entity created the universe.
A theist believes that "their" god, with characteristics that they somehow know about, created the universe.

Those are two very different beliefs.
Friend!
I understand G-d exists very naturally like I believe that my father and mother existed. Nobody ever has given me any positive argument of non-existence of G-d, that could convince me heart and soul for His non-existence.
Better classify me in a new classification of a Believer/Muslim, please. Right, please?

Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I am not for these terms/classification "theism" or "deism". I hold to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam.
Why does our friend wants to classify me/us in those terms, please? Please elaborate.

Every person or a thing in the World points firmly, I understand, towards Allah or G-d that it is from Him, is His creation.
I think that was the point of friend @Muffled but it is his right to tell it. Right, please?

Regards
From where I stand it looks like Islaam is firmly theistic - as a matter of fact, monotheistic.

That would, of course, make it non-deistic, and in fact incompatible with deism.

I take it that you either don't agree or don't feel fully confortable with this analysis. But I don't understand why.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Friend!
I understand G-d exists very naturally like I believe that my father and mother existed. Nobody ever has given me any positive argument of non-existence of G-d, that could convince me heart and soul for His non-existence.
Better classify me in a new classification of a Believer/Muslim, please. Right, please?

Regards
You don't feel confortable being called a theist?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You don't feel comfortable being called a theist?

Only because then the discussion leads to what is theism, deism or Atheism and various isms which side tracks the discussion. I call others what they like for themselves to be called. Else, it is not a big issue. Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
From where I stand it looks like Islaam is firmly theistic - as a matter of fact, monotheistic.

That would, of course, make it non-deistic, and in fact incompatible with deism.

I take it that you either don't agree or don't feel fully comfortable with this analysis. But I don't understand why.
Sir, I have clarified in my post #416 :

"Only because then the discussion leads to what is theism, deism or Atheism and various isms which side track the discussion. I call others what they like for themselves to be called. Else, it is not a big issue. "
Right, please?

Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Only because then the discussion leads to what is theism, deism or Atheism and various isms which side tracks the discussion. I call others what they like for themselves to be called. Else, it is not a big issue. Right, please?

Regards
I will have to disagree.

You are a proponent of a decidedly monotheistic doctrine, albeit in one of its most benign forms. That is relevant for attempts at reaching common ground.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I will have to disagree.

You are a proponent of a decidedly monotheistic doctrine, albeit in one of its most benign forms. That is relevant for attempts at reaching common ground.
These are philosophical terms. Do I have to be convinced with the terms of Philosophy or believe in the terms of Philosophy to find a common ground just to facilitate my friend @icehorse? While the common ground is already wide open having common language of "reasons" and "arguments". And our friend @icehorse is not short of them, I am sure. Right, please?

Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
These are philosophical terms. Do I have to be convinced with the terms of Philosophy or believe in the terms of Philosophy to find a common ground just to facilitate my friend @icehorse? While the common ground is already wide open having common language of "reasons" and "arguments". And our friend @icehorse is not short of them, I am sure. Right, please?

Regards

We will find out, of course. However, I think that it is only fair to point out that Muslims have a tendency to expect most everyone to be "potential monotheists" and, well, that is not to be.
 
Top