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Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

firedragon

Veteran Member
That's not answering my question my question,it's an easy one to answer,humans ask the questions and find the answers themselves.

A question about Muhammed Quran or Islam would be,why is it that in the places where Islam is prevalent in the world and where it's followers study the quran,perform prayers 5 times a day are also some of the worst places to live in the world?.

Your question (correct me if i am wrong)

why is it that in the places where Islam is prevalent in the world and where it's followers study the quran,perform prayers 5 times a day are also some of the worst places to live in the world?.

This question is not a theological question. You could actually just go google some responses. I just googled, and some list came up. Its i think based on an expats point of view. Worst places to live. Kuwait has been ranked 1, then comes rome, and apparently 3 cities in the U.S is also in the list.

Ranked: The World’s 10 Worst Cities To Live (3 Are In The US)

Sorry. Ran out of time. Cheers.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[34:25]قُلۡ مَنۡ یَّرۡزُقُکُمۡ مِّنَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ قُلِ اللّٰہُ ۙ وَ اِنَّاۤ اَوۡ اِیَّاکُمۡ لَعَلٰی ہُدًی اَوۡ فِیۡ ضَلٰلٍ مُّبِیۡنٍ ﴿۲۵﴾
Say, ‘Who gives you sustenance from the heavens and the earth?’ Say, ‘Allah. Either we or you are on right guidance or in manifest error.’
[34:26]قُلۡ لَّا تُسۡـَٔلُوۡنَ عَمَّاۤ اَجۡرَمۡنَا وَ لَا نُسۡـَٔلُ عَمَّا تَعۡمَلُوۡنَ ﴿۲۶﴾
Say, ‘You will not be questioned as to our sins, nor shall we be questioned as to what you do.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 34: Saba

Right, please?

For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.
  1. Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  2. Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  3. Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
  4. Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?
Regards
____________
  • I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
  • "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
  • "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
  • Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Your question (correct me if i am wrong)

why is it that in the places where Islam is prevalent in the world and where it's followers study the quran,perform prayers 5 times a day are also some of the worst places to live in the world?.

This question is not a theological question. You could actually just go google some responses. I just googled, and some list came up. Its i think based on an expats point of view. Worst places to live. Kuwait has been ranked 1, then comes rome, and apparently 3 cities in the U.S is also in the list.

Ranked: The World’s 10 Worst Cities To Live (3 Are In The US)

Sorry. Ran out of time. Cheers.

Yes I could Google it but paarsurrey asked for the question,maybe I should have been more specific and exchange "worst" for "impoverished".
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
That too I think a simple google search would do. And if I'm not mistaken, the poorest nation is a christian majority. Nothing to do with christianity though. Congo.

Maybe this will help.

Friend!
Please mention one's top most (one) question (only) which has risen in one's own heart naturally while studying/researching Quran/Islam/Muhammad, not from questions which are in circulation like a rhetoric in different sites opposed to Islam, please.

Right, please?

Regards

I disagree about it not having anything to do with a religious majority,I would venture that Catholics not being allowed to use condoms in places such as the congo which,and pointed out by you are indeed a consequence of religiosity imo.

As for my question to paarsurrey,my question still stands,i i would add though that it appears that no matter how ardent onei in ones belief it doesn't cure poverty,I would venture that itincreases it,jmo though.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Maybe this will help.



I disagree about it not having anything to do with a religious majority,I would venture that Catholics not being allowed to use condoms in places such as the congo which,and pointed out by you are indeed a consequence of religiosity imo.

As for my question to paarsurrey,my question still stands,i i would add though that it appears that no matter how ardent onei in ones belief it doesn't cure poverty,I would venture that itincreases it,jmo though.

If the condom issue is the reason for their demise,
Maybe this will help.



I disagree about it not having anything to do with a religious majority,I would venture that Catholics not being allowed to use condoms in places such as the congo which,and pointed out by you are indeed a consequence of religiosity imo.

As for my question to paarsurrey,my question still stands,i i would add though that it appears that no matter how ardent onei in ones belief it doesn't cure poverty,I would venture that itincreases it,jmo though.

Yep. But your claim about so called islamic countries being the most impoverished was just an anecdotal statement. False.

It doesnt matter. But it was false.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
If the condom issue is the reason for their demise,

Does the use of condoms reduce the risk of STDs?,yes they do for sure.


Yep. But your claim about so called islamic countries being the most impoverished was just an anecdotal statement. False.

It doesnt matter. But it was false

This thread is about Islam,it's asking (but mostly telling us) that God authored the quran,I am simply asking why the worship of his God hasn't helped those countries that are predominately Islamic to not be among the worst places to live in the world.
 

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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
That would be an interesting argument to make, but it requires a bit of established parameters.

It is true that both atheism and polytheism stand in opposition and contrast to monotheism, but all three stances - including monotheism, even - have a lot more nuance and variety than I would expect to find in something that could be described as flip-sides of each other.


Monotheism's claim to be a natural position is, at best, tentative.

Historically, polytheism and IMO atheism have been shown to be considerably more common, at least as far as spontaneous belief stances go.

Also, and this is very relevant here, to the extent that monotheism may occur spontaneously, it can hardly be said to validate any of the Abrahamics.
It is true that both atheism and polytheism stand in opposition and contrast to monotheism, but all three stances - including monotheism, even - have a lot more nuance and variety than I would expect to find in something that could be described as flip-sides of each other.

Thanks for agreeing with me though partially in one's expression colored in magenta by me.
One knows, if one remembers, that I have never approved use of the terms of "monotheism" and or "Abrahamics" about my Religion, please.
I use "Oneness".
And friend, I am sorry, we both are often on the opposite poles/sides in our discussions, even then our friendship continues and that is OK for me.
Right, please? cheers

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[34:27]قُلۡ یَجۡمَعُ بَیۡنَنَا رَبُّنَا ثُمَّ یَفۡتَحُ بَیۡنَنَا بِالۡحَقِّ ؕ وَ ہُوَ الۡفَتَّاحُ الۡعَلِیۡمُ ﴿۲۷﴾
Say, ‘Our Lord will bring us all together; then He will judge between us with truth: and He is the Judge, the All-Knowing.’
[34:28]قُلۡ اَرُوۡنِیَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَلۡحَقۡتُمۡ بِہٖ شُرَکَآءَ کَلَّا ؕ بَلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ الۡعَزِیۡزُ الۡحَکِیۡمُ ﴿۲۸﴾
Say, ‘Show me those whom you have joined with Him as partners. Nay! You cannot do so, for He is Allah, the Mighty, the Wise.’
[34:29]وَ مَاۤ اَرۡسَلۡنٰکَ اِلَّا کَآفَّۃً لِّلنَّاسِ بَشِیۡرًا وَّ نَذِیۡرًا وَّ لٰکِنَّ اَکۡثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿۲۹﴾
And We have not sent thee but as a bearer of glad tidings and a Warner, for all mankind, but most men know not.
[34:30]وَ یَقُوۡلُوۡنَ مَتٰی ہٰذَا الۡوَعۡدُ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ صٰدِقِیۡنَ ﴿۳۰﴾
And they say, ‘When will this promise be fulfilled, if you are truthful?’
[34:31]قُلۡ لَّکُمۡ مِّیۡعَادُ یَوۡمٍ لَّا تَسۡتَاۡخِرُوۡنَ عَنۡہُ سَاعَۃً وَّ لَا تَسۡتَقۡدِمُوۡنَ ﴿٪۳۱﴾
Say, ‘For you is the promise of a day from which you cannot remain behind a single moment nor can you get ahead of it.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 34: Saba

Right, please?

For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.
  1. Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  2. Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
  3. Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
  4. Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?
Regards
____________
  • I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
  • "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
  • "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
  • Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
That too I think a simple google search would do. And if I'm not mistaken, the poorest nation is a christian majority. Nothing to do with christianity though. Congo.
And, I understand, there has never been any country since inception with Atheism majority. Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You misunderstand my problem -- I consider "the source" to be the written work of human beings. And I only have their word for it that they got it direct from their source, and not from within their own minds.

But in our own time, we've seen the sorts of people who actually do make the assumption that they're getting their guidance directly from Ultimate Authority. They are they David Koresh, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite types. And they don't inspire a lot of confidence in me.

But Muhammad never claimed to be author of Quran, and he didn't know how to write.
Has one read Quran/Recitation from cover to cover to know that G-d Himself has claimed to author it , please? Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I believe I don't find the Qu'ran systematic. It appears pretty random.
Does one find nature the Work of G-d to be systematic, please?
Quran the Word of G-d has the same system as does the nature have, being from one Being, please. Right, please?

Regards
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
But Muhammad never claimed to be author of Quran, and he didn't know how to write.
Has one read Quran/Recitation from cover to cover to know that G-d Himself has claimed to author it , please? Right, please?

Regards
I know what is CLAIMED. I also know a lot of people, for a lot of reasons, all through human history, have CLAIMED a lot of things that are manifestly false.

My problem is I don't believe everybody's claims -- especially when they seem to have motives like ruling over others, getting rich, getting extra wives and other benefits that come from fooling the gullible.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Thank you for sharing. Video sounds positive. Muhammad tells us to never criticize other's (non) belief and drop "my way is highway". Very good.

IMO: I see a lot of discrepancy between Koran verses, and even more how different Muslims interpret them. See quote below.

IF there are 2 people who both live exactly the same perfect life (being just, loving, compassionate, empathetic). One is a Theist, and the other is an Atheist or humanist. Then the Muslim below claims that the one who follows his heart (non belief), should be condemned by Muslims (not ordinarily but wholeheartedly)

@paarsurrey: Do you agree with this quote? Don't you feel that something might be wrong with this Muslim's "whole heart"? Lacking "differentiate between"
The quote one gave is just an opinion and , as I understand, is wrong opinion and not supported by Quran.
The sin is to be abhorred, the sinner is to be convinced with reasons and arguments that he has committed a sin. Nevertheless, If the sinner has harmed the society and is a criminal at large, then of course, he is to be tried as per the law of land and if found guilty, is to be punished accordingly by the state so that he does not damage society and the individual irreparably,please. Right, please?
If the sinner has done a sin that has not trespassed any other person's right or the right of the society and the wrong has been against one's own self, then he has:
  1. to repent of his sin wrong and
  2. resolve not to do it again
  3. and ask forgiveness from God, God may forgive such a person on His own decision.
  4. There is no punishment for such a sin in this world, the punishment is in the afterlife.
Right, please?

Regards
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
And naturally for every individual and every problem the solution is different. Right, please?

Right. For some it's the path of Hinduism, for others Buddhism. And for some it's Atheism or Humanism. They all are "ending" even with "ism":)

Right, please?

But asking help from G-d with prayers doesn't absolve one from doing the effort/labor required, rather it concentrates one's effort/labor and to leave no stone unturned to achieve the result. Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Step 1: Define what you mean with "God" or "G-d"?
Step 2: Can we make "any" image of God (mental, verbal, physical?)
Step 3: Is it reasonable to look for "signs" to know if book/chapter/verse is from God?
Friend @stvdv !

We already discussed about Step 1 in one's post. Right, please? Or is there more to it, please, so we could move to discuss the "Step 2: Can we make "any" image of God (mental, verbal, physical?)", please. Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
For me scripture is poetic writing, so I have nothing to agree or disagree with.

However, what you have quoted above does not sound like God wrote it, rather someone talking/praying to God?

Surely God would have been more direct and said something like
"Me alone you must worship and me alone should you implore for help.." Quran 1:5-6

There are many "First Person" verses from G-d in Quran, like:

[36:62]وَّ اَنِ اعۡبُدُوۡنِیۡ ؕؔ ہٰذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسۡتَقِیۡمٌ ﴿۶۲﴾
‘And that you worship Me? This is the right path.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 36: Ya Sin

Right, please?

Regards
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
For me scripture is poetic writing, so I have nothing to agree or disagree with.

However, what you have quoted above does not sound like God wrote it, rather someone talking/praying to God?

Surely God would have been more direct and said something like
"Me alone you must worship and me alone should you implore for help.." Quran 1:5-6
"For me scripture is poetic writing, so I have nothing to agree or disagree with."

What does one mean from "poetic writing", please?
Please elaborate for me.

Regards
 
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