Quran and Science : Just wanted some comments

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you would read the second verse, it clearly says that all celestial bodies are in motion.This even includes earth. Notice that the word "All" has been used. Thus, Earth according to Quran is not stationary.

If you consider the Earth to be a fixed feature, you probably wouldn't consider it to be a celestial body.

Secondly, did I mention that there were no telescopes at that time to observe planets?

You can see several planets with the naked eye.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

If you consider the Earth to be a fixed feature, you probably wouldn't consider it to be a celestial body.


You can see several planets with the naked eye.

I think that if someone does say that all celestial bodies are in motion it includes earth as well. Being stationary has got nothing to do with being celestial.
Secondly, the Quran does not say anywhere that earth is stationary. If at that time it was believed that earth was stationary, why was this not mentioned in the Quran?
Secondly, not all planets can be seen from eye. Only at special times, can planets such as Venus and Mars be observed. If you would realize the verse talks about all celestial objects. This includes comets etc. .

 

[kai]

this is getting silly
Astronomy 101 - Lesson 1: History, Ancient Astronomers to The Renaissa - Early History of Astronomy

astrology or the observation of the heavens has been going on as long as man was able to look up at the night sky

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

this is getting silly
Astronomy 101 - Lesson 1: History, Ancient Astronomers to The Renaissa - Early History of Astronomy

astrology or the observation of the heavens has been going on as long as man was able to look up at the night sky

Well, i might agree with you that it was known that planets moved in orbits. But what about the sun? Quran talks about sun as well. Nowhere was it mentioned in the link you provided, that sun too moved and rotated about it's axis.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Well, i might agree with you that it was known that planets moved in orbits. But what about the sun? Quran talks about sun as well. Nowhere was it mentioned in the link you provided, that sun too moved and rotated about it's axis.

Infact if you would check the original post too concerned the motion of sun.

 

[kai]

As far as the forer effect you have mentioned still: (check these verses)
1)“It is not permitted
to the Sun to catch up the Moon,
nor can the Night outstrip the Day:
Each (just) swims along
in (its own) orbit
(according to Law).”
[Al-Qur’an 36:40]


“It is He Who created
the Night and the Day,
and the sun and the moon:
All (the celestial bodies)
swim along, each in its
rounded course.”[Al-Qur’an 21:33]

so you are saying that the above means that the sun too moved and rotated about it's axis. where does it even imply that , it says they all swim along in its rounded course, i can give you some poetic license here but come on this is not miraculous is it.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

As far as the forer effect you have mentioned still: (check these verses)
1)“It is not permitted
to the Sun to catch up the Moon,
nor can the Night outstrip the Day:
Each (just) swims along
in (its own) orbit
(according to Law).”
[Al-Qur’an 36:40]


“It is He Who created
the Night and the Day,
and the sun and the moon:
All (the celestial bodies)
swim along, each in its
rounded course.”[Al-Qur’an 21:33]

so you are saying that the above means that the sun too moved and rotated about it's axis. where does it even imply that , it says they all swim along in its rounded course, i can give you some poetic license here but come on this is not miraculous is it.

Go back to post 160 and read the entire explanation. Did you really miss out on the explanation and were debating without even reading fully what I had to present?

 

[kai]

i did read it my answer is the same
i can give you some poetic license here but come on this is not miraculous is it.
""Do you know where this sun goes?" I said, "Allah and his Apostle know best." He said, It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and one day it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west."" (Bukhari 9:520)
and thats hardly science is it

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

i did read it my answer is the same
i can give you some poetic license here but come on this is not miraculous is it.

Well in post 160 it was proved that Quran does speak of rotation of sun. These are mere translations, to understand the text fully we have to read it in original manuscript, which is Arabic. Thus, Quran does imply that sun is not stationary and even moving about it's axis.
Even if you do argue, that Quran does not imply that sun rotates about it's axis: as it is mentioned in the link you provided that it was previously believed that sun was completely stationary. It is clearly mentioned that not only is it moving but also rotating about it's axis.

 

[McBell]

Well in post 160 it was proved that Quran does speak of rotation of sun. These are mere translations, to understand the text fully we have to read it in original manuscript, which is Arabic. Thus, Quran does imply that sun is not stationary and even moving about it's axis.
Even if you do argue, that Quran does not imply that sun rotates about it's axis: as it is mentioned in the link you provided that it was previously believed that sun was completely stationary. It is clearly mentioned that not only is it moving but also rotating about it's axis.

Post 160 "proves" no such thing.
All you did was present the verse and someone else's use of the Forer Effect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think that if someone does say that all celestial bodies are in motion it includes earth as well. Being stationary has got nothing to do with being celestial.

It depends on one's point of view and base assumtions. You haven't presented any evidence that ancient Arabs included the Earth when they talked of celestial bodies.

Secondly, the Quran does not say anywhere that earth is stationary. If at that time it was believed that earth was stationary, why was this not mentioned in the Quran?

Perhaps it's not mentioned because the Quran is not a science textbook.

Secondly, not all planets can be seen from eye. Only at special times, can planets such as Venus and Mars be observed. If you would realize the verse talks about all celestial objects. This includes comets etc. .

The planet Venus can be observed almost every night. It's sometimes erroneously called the "Evening Star", because it's so much brighter than most stars that it's the first celestial body seen in the sky after sunset.

BTW - I'm at a disadvantage here, because I can't read the original Arabic. Would the word that's translated as "rounded" also imply "circular"?

 

[credance]

Who did dig sun out of "booz"? Give the verse plz. The thread's topic is Quran and Science. The questions you are asking belong to the thread " What do you feel is wrong with Islam" in Religious debates forum. Don't make this an off-topic discussion, thank you.

Quran, The Cave,
Sura 18 verse 86
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a people: We said "O Zul-qarain ( thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or treat them with kindness.

 

[McBell]

Quran, The Cave,
Sura 18 verse 86
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a people: We said "O Zul-qarain ( thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or treat them with kindness.

Well it is clear from this verse that the sun sets in a "spring of murky water."
I wonder how it gets set afire each morning?
Is there perhaps a verse that explains that as well?

 

[camanintx]

I think that if someone does say that all celestial bodies are in motion it includes earth as well. Being stationary has got nothing to do with being celestial.

Maybe you include Earth in all celestial bodies because you looking at it from a modern perspective.

"Celestial" comes from the Latin caelestis which is derived from caelum meaning heaven or sky.

Wouldn't it be more that a little difficult to consider Earth part of the heavens or sky when it is clearly below our feet?

 

[camanintx]

Secondly, provide evidence for your statement. As far as I knew, before Quran was revealed this fact was not known. Provide evidence or anyone can just stand up and pass of such statements. The claim made in my post had verses to support it. You are just passing statements that this was a known fact.

Take a few minutes each day and look at the position of the Moon relative to the Sun. Since the Moon orbits Earth in the same direction that Earth rotates, it is actually orbiting west-to-east, not east-to-west, so the Sun will appear to be catching up with the Moon a little every day. Isn't this just the opposition of what it says in Al-Qur’an 36:40?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Take a few minutes each day and look at the position of the Moon relative to the Sun. Since the Moon orbits Earth in the same direction that Earth rotates, it is actually orbiting west-to-east, not east-to-west, so the Sun will appear to be catching up with the Moon a little every day. Isn't this just the opposition of what it says in Al-Qur’an 36:40?

Very good point.

1)“It is not permitted
to the Sun to catch up the Moon,
nor can the Night outstrip the Day:
Each (just) swims along
in (its own) orbit
(according to Law).”
[Al-Qur’an 36:40]

The sun does catch up to the Moon occasionally - once a month, in fact. Sometimes, they even appear to meet - when this happens, we call it a solar eclipse.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Quran, The Cave,
Sura 18 verse 86
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a people: We said "O Zul-qarain ( thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or treat them with kindness.

Well, I heard this question in a debate b/w Zakir Naik and William Campbell. ANd, Zakir Naik did give a good response... here it is:
Chapter No.18, Verse No.86, that… ‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’And Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic.So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain.If I make a statement that… ‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ And you say… ‘Oh Zakir said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5. I did not say.I am telling…‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ I am not wrong - The student is wrong.There are various ways to try and analyze this verse.One is this way - according to Muhammad Asad, that 'wajada' means… ‘It appeared to’… ‘It appeared to Zulqarnain.’ Point no.2 - The Arabic word used is 'Magrib' - It can be used for time, as well as place.When we say ‘sunset’ – ‘sunset’ can be taken for time.If I say… ‘The sun sets at 7 p.m.’; I am using it for time.If I say… ‘The ‘Sun sets in the West’, it means I am taking it for place.So here if we use the word 'Magrib' for time.So Zulqarnain did not reach that place of sunset - used - as time - He reached at the time of sun set. The problem is solved.Further more, you can solve them in various ways.Even if Dr. William Campbell says… ‘No No, the basic assumption is too much - It is not… ‘Appeared to’… it is actually this.’ Let us analyze it further.The Qur'anic verse says… the Sun set in murky water.’Now we know, when we use these words, like ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’ - does the sunrise? Scientifically, sun does not rise - neither does the sunset. We know scientifically, that the sun does not set at all. It is the rotation of the earth, which gives rise to sunrise and sunset. But yet you read in the everyday papers mentioning, sunrise at 6 a.m. sun sets at 7.00 p.m. Oh! The newspapers are wrong – Unscientific!’ If I use the word ‘Disaster’, Oh! There is a disaster’ – ‘Disaster’ means there is some calamity which has taken place. Literally, ‘disaster’ means ‘an evil star.’So when I say… ‘This disaster’ every one knows what I mean is ‘a calamity’, not about the evil star.’Dr. William Campbell and I know, when a person who is mad, we call him a lunatic - Yes or no? At least I do, and I believe Dr. William Campbell also will be doing that.We call a person ‘a lunatic’ – He is ‘mad.’ What is the meaning of ‘lunatic’? It means… ‘struck by the moon’ - But that is how the language has evolved. Similarly sun rise, is actually, it is just a usage of words.And Allah has given the guidance for the human beings also - He uses so, that we understand. So it is just ‘sunset’ - Not that it is actually setting - Not that sun is actually rising. So this explanation clearly gives us a clear picture, that the Verse of the Qur’an of Surah Kahf, Chapter.18, Verse No 86, is not in contradiction with established science - That is the way how people speak."

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

It depends on one's point of view and base assumtions. You haven't presented any evidence that ancient Arabs included the Earth when they talked of celestial bodies.


Perhaps it's not mentioned because the Quran is not a science textbook.


The planet Venus can be observed almost every night. It's sometimes erroneously called the "Evening Star", because it's so much brighter than most stars that it's the first celestial body seen in the sky after sunset.

BTW - I'm at a disadvantage here, because I can't read the original Arabic. Would the word that's translated as "rounded" also imply "circular"?

I know I have not included any such evidence. Anyways, imagine if earth was stationary ( just imagine) and planets and sun rotated around it, would it not be called celestial body? I mean it too is in space.
You are assuming that it was believed that earth was considered stationary at that time. Now, first of all, as I have said that if earth was considered stationary why hasn't this been mentioned? Imagine if their is a copier, he will copy everything down including wrong and right. Why did author of Quran only copy the correct things down? Doesn't this imply that he already knew what is wrong and what is right?
I even find this tactic of atheists ( directed at 9 10 penguino) quite disturbing. WHen they ask theists that why they believe in God, and theists reply as their is no evidence against it. Then atheists say, that this is a failed logic. LOOK at what you are saying, If I cannot prove that earth was believed to be moving at that time, then it means at that time it was considered that earth was stationary.
Even if planet venus is observable, I donot think that the verse is referring to only one planet. Go back to the verse and check that it refers to "all celestial bodies". These also include others which are not observable.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Very good point.


The sun does catch up to the Moon occasionally - once a month, in fact. Sometimes, they even appear to meet - when this happens, we call it a solar eclipse.

I believe the answer has been given later in the verse. By "not catching up", it implies that they are not doing so because of separate orbits (which is mentioned later in verse, read it again). Indicating that this does not refer to catching up in sky ( as a previous user had provided directions of sun and moon's setting) but rather catching up as in moving towards each other to a collision.
As I have cleared that this catching up refers to orbitals this eclipse thing is pointless.
(read verse again to check context in which separate orbitals have been mentioned)

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Maybe you include Earth in all celestial bodies because you looking at it from a modern perspective.

"Celestial" comes from the Latin caelestis which is derived from caelum meaning heaven or sky.

Wouldn't it be more that a little difficult to consider Earth part of the heavens or sky when it is clearly below our feet?

It is not difficult to know about earth as a celestial body, when you already know that there are other such bodies in motion and are orbiting in space .