Quran and women

[paarsurrey]

Alright, so you can tell me why men and women are equal without referring to your book then?
Without referring to any book would be best.

One should see if a statement is reasonable and correct, if Quran also supports it, it should not be a problem for one to acknowledge it. Just because Quran supports that women and men are even-handed; will you deny that they are not even-handed? That won't be fair and I don't expect it from one. Right?

I quote another place from Quran where relationship of women and men has been fairly described:

[2:188] It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are a garment for you, and you are a garment for them. Allah knows that you have been acting unjustly to yourselves, wherefore He has turned to you with mercy and afforded you relief. So you may now go in unto them and seek what Allah has ordained for you; and eat and drink until the white thread becomes distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then complete the fast till nightfall and do not go in unto them while you remain in the mosques for devotion. These are the limits fixed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus does Allah make His commandments clear to men that they may become secure against evil.
[2:189] And do not devour your wealth among yourselves through falsehood, and offer it notas bribe to the authorities that you may knowingly devour a part of the wealth of otherpeople with injustice.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=187
Regards

 

[Deathbydefault]

One should see if a statement is reasonable and correct, if Quran also supports it, it should not be a problem for one to acknowledge it. Just because Quran supports that women and men are even-handed; will you deny that they are not even-handed? That won't be fair and I don't expect it from one. Right?

I quote another place from Quran where relationship of women and men has been fairly described:

[2:188] It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are a garment for you, and you are a garment for them. Allah knows that you have been acting unjustly to yourselves, wherefore He has turned to you with mercy and afforded you relief. So you may now go in unto them and seek what Allah has ordained for you; and eat and drink until the white thread becomes distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then complete the fast till nightfall and do not go in unto them while you remain in the mosques for devotion. These are the limits fixed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus does Allah make His commandments clear to men that they may become secure against evil.
[2:189] And do not devour your wealth among yourselves through falsehood, and offer it notas bribe to the authorities that you may knowingly devour a part of the wealth of otherpeople with injustice.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=187
Regards

I'm aware of the Quran's view on men and women.
That's not the issue I'm addressing.
It's fine to support a belief in gender equality with your literature, I have no problems with that.
But, I want to see you do it without that literature.

Let me reiterate. I have no issue with the Quran interpretation of gender equality.
I just want to you to explain how both genders are equal without the Quran viewpoint.
Without the viewpoint of any form of literature.

 

[paarsurrey]

Your point is irrelevant since the lexicon and ahadith support my view. You have to ignore the language and secondary Islamic texts about the verse in question to extradite your religion from what the text says. Why are you ignoring the verse's lexicon and translation? You are ignoring context, which Muslims love to remind everyone about. Beside if you look at those other verse many still about strike people thus further confirms this is what the word means. Read your own citations.

There were no Ahadith in the time of Muhammad. Ahadith were collected and compiled 250/300 years after Muhammad.There was no lexicon in the time of Muhammad.

"Arabic dictionaries were compiled between the 8th and 14th centuries CE, organizing words in rhyme order (by the last syllable), by alphabetical order of the radicals, or according to
the alphabetical order of the first letter (the system used in modern European language dictionaries). The modern system was mainly used in specialist dictionaries, such as those of terms from the Qur'an and hadith, while most general use dictionaries, such as the Lisan al-`Arab (13th century, still the best-known large-scale dictionary of Arabic) and al-Qamus al-Muhit (14th century) listed words in the alphabetical order of the radicals. The Qamus al-Muhit is the first handy dictionary in Arabic, which includes only words and their definitions, eliminating the supporting examples used in such dictionaries as the Lisan and the Oxford English Dictionary.[10]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary

We Muslims believe only Quran to be 100% correct, Ahadith and lexicon are not 100% correct. No translator of Quran has claimed to be 100% correct. The same is true of the of the Academia, they are not 100% correct. We don't deny that these sources (Ahadith, lexicons, translators, Academia etc) do help to understand Quran but Quran does not need them. Quranic verses are eloquent , their context, and their context verses do clear the meaning always and at all times and in every society/culture/civilisation, these are balanced in such a way.

Please do mention as to why one should ignore 49 verses of Quran that do not suit one's stance and why one should insist on 9 verses that suit one's stance.
Regards

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

All humans are good but it depends in the circumstances, rapists and murderers were just unlucky humans.

This is not the teachings of Islam
Islam considers Muslims the best people and the others are not good
Religious discrimination is one of the most important teachings of Islam

 

[FearGod]

Males and females is an earthly things but we're actually a gender-less souls, we became males
and females for the purpose of reproduction and each has its own place to settle in whether
it's a body of a male or a female.

And it is He who produced you from one soul and [gave you] a place of dwelling and of storage. We have detailed the signs for a people who understand.(6:98)

 

[leibowde84]

Yet women are delicate and tender.
Regard

Some women are. Some men are.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

There were no Ahadith in the time of Muhammad. Ahadith were collected and compiled 250/300 years after Muhammad.There was no lexicon in the time of Muhamm

You should know chatter so you can interpret and explain some of the verses of the KoranFor this you must know the reasons for writing books every verse of the KoranHadith Muhammadiyah was present but written in the late
The chatter supports the Koran and vice versa

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

We Muslims believe only Quran to be 100% correct, Ahadith and lexicon are not 100% correct. No translator of Quran has claimed to be 100% correct. The same is true of the of the Academia, they are not 100% correct. We don't deny that these sources (Ahadith, lexicons, translators, Academia etc) do help to understand Quran but Quran does not need them. Quranic verses are eloquent , their context, and their context verses do clear the meaning always and at all times and in every society/culture/civilisation, these are balanced in such a way.

You say you believe in the Koran only
Well you be able to explain the Quranic verse about the fact of ideas in own wife Aisha MohammedThose who came Balivk League you do not count him evil to you, but is best for you for each one of them gained from sin and who took them magnify him a great punishment (

(Surat Al-Nur)

If you want to explain this verse must know the reason written in the Koran
And they sent a messenger to you nor a prophet unless he wished the devil threw in his wish Vinsch what God cast Satan and God governs His signs and Allah is

This verse from the Koran
Are you able to interpret for us
You must return and extrapolation chatter wrote down reasons
Knowing, Wise

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

That every verse of the Koran and wrote her cause

 

[paarsurrey]

I'm aware of the Quran's view on men and women.
That's not the issue I'm addressing.
It's fine to support a belief in gender equality with your literature, I have no problems with that.
But, I want to see you do it without that literature.

Let me reiterate. I have no issue with the Quran interpretation of gender equality.
I just want to you to explain how both genders are equal without the Quran viewpoint.
Without the viewpoint of any form of literature.

I appreciate that you have no problem with Quran's view on men and women.

Where do you get that I ever thought that women and men are not equal in humanity and their rights, they existed together since inception, and one is incomplete without the other? Together they are one unit and they both cover one another and benefit from one another. It is inbuilt in the human conscience from the time Quran has not yet descended and Muhammad was no yet even born. Quran supports the inbuilt human nature and the human conscience; that is why Quran has been named (among many) by G-d as Zikrun* (Reminder) . Perhaps Quran would have never descended if humans would have listened to their consciences (for His existence) and would have learnt not to wrong one another . Where the conscience is silent, G-d's Word reminds us of our conscience with spoken Word lest we deprive ourselves from the real life to come in ignorance.

*[21:51] And this is a blessed Reminder that We have sent down; will you then reject it?

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=21&verse=50

Regards

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

to---paarsurrey Member
You do not know the Koran
And you are trying to twist the word of God
And trying to interpret the verses on the breeze
That is why you are outside of Islam
Women of the most important teachings of the Koran hit

 

[Deathbydefault]

I appreciate that you have no problem with Quran's view on men and women.

Where do you get that I ever thought that women and men are not equal in humanity and their rights, they existed together since inception, and one is incomplete without the other? Together they are one unit and they both cover one another and benefit from one another. It is inbuilt in the human conscience from the time Quran has not yet descended and Muhammad was no yet even born. Quran supports the inbuilt human nature and the human conscience; that is why Quran has been named (among many) by G-d as Zikrun* (Reminder) . Perhaps Quran would have never descended if humans would have listened to their consciences (for His existence) and would have learnt not to wrong one another . Where the conscience is silent, G-d's Word reminds us of our conscience with spoken Word lest we deprive ourselves from the real life to come in ignorance.

*[21:51] And this is a blessed Reminder that We have sent down; will you then reject it?

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=21&verse=50

Regards

I didn't think you had anything against equality.
I just wanted to make sure you realized that the Quran is not necessary to know that men and women are equal.

Thanks for your time.

 

[paarsurrey]

Males and females is an earthly things but we're actually a gender-less souls, we became males
and females for the purpose of reproduction and each has its own place to settle in whether
it's a body of a male or a female.

And it is He who produced you from one soul and [gave you] a place of dwelling and of storage. We have detailed the signs for a people who understand.(6:98)

I endorse your views.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Even the idea it is the right of men that their women "...do not make friends with any one whom you do not approve" doesn't sit well with many people.

All of the ideas about women in Islam reflect much closer to how we view/treat children. Think about it in light of 4:34 - saying men are in charge because they spend their wealth on women...an argument parents often use on their kids. When they are being bad you are to advise/instruct them first, send them to their bed second, and third hit/spank. Pretty much the same way people often discipline children, is the same way instructed to discipline a wife.

Treating women closer to the level of children rather than the same/equal level as adults - just won't ever sound right outside of the cultures where Islamic ideologies condition it.

You mean you do that to your dependent family members.

1. Advise and instruct them first.
2. Send them to their bed second
   
3. Hit/spank them third .

Right?

Regards

 

[Sees]

You mean you do that to your dependent family members.

1. Advise and instruct them first.
2. Send them to their bed second
   
3. Hit/spank them third .

Right?

Regards

For my kids, not so much #3...definitely the first two though. Same with seeing them as a helper rather than a partner.

 

[Shad]

There were no Ahadith in the time of Muhammad. Ahadith were collected and compiled 250/300 years after Muhammad.There was no lexicon in the time of Muhammad.

Irrelevant as the ahadith show a consensus regarding the meaning of the word in the verse in question.

"Arabic dictionaries were compiled between the 8th and 14th centuries CE, organizing words in rhyme order (by the last syllable), by alphabetical order of the radicals, or according to
the alphabetical order of the first letter (the system used in modern European language dictionaries). The modern system was mainly used in specialist dictionaries, such as those of terms from the Qur'an and hadith, while most general use dictionaries, such as the Lisan al-`Arab (13th century, still the best-known large-scale dictionary of Arabic) and al-Qamus al-Muhit (14th century) listed words in the alphabetical order of the radicals. The Qamus al-Muhit is the first handy dictionary in Arabic, which includes only words and their definitions, eliminating the supporting examples used in such dictionaries as the Lisan and the Oxford English Dictionary.[10]"

Then you accept the lexicon is correct since a lexicon is above a dictionary when it comes to language. You need lexicons to even create proper dictionaries.

We Muslims believe only Quran to be 100% correct, Ahadith and lexicon are not 100% correct. No translator of Quran has claimed to be 100% correct. The same is true of the of the Academia, they are not 100% correct. We don't deny that these sources (Ahadith, lexicons, translators, Academia etc) do help to understand Quran but Quran does not need them. Quranic verses are eloquent , their context, and their context verses do clear the meaning always and at all times and in every society/culture/civilisation, these are balanced in such a way.

You need lexicons and dictionaries to understand your supposed 100% god given text since the text uses language. Your religious rhetoric is so inane you just support my view unwittingly. You only demonstrate you were told what to think, not how to think otherwise you would not make such an error.

Please do mention as to why one should ignore 49 verses of Quran that do not suit one's stance and why one should insist on 9 verses that suit one's stance.
Regards

Since the other 49 verses are not within the context of the verse in question. It seems like you enjoy a double standard. When someone mentions a verse which reflects upon Islam negatively you rant "Context!" but you ignore your very own arguments by ignoring the context of the verse in order to impose a different definition from another verse with a different context on to the verse in question.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Then you accept the lexicon is correct since a lexicon is above a dictionary when it comes to language. You need lexicons to even create proper dictionaries.

They are trying to mislead people
Through the interpretation of the word in the sense contrary to truth

 

[delizzle]

From what I know women have historically been second-class citizens in both Islam and Christianity.

I would probably go as far to say that almost every nation, religion, culture, ect.. Has at some point treated women with inferiority. I know there are exceptions. I believe the ancient Spartans may have been an exception. I think they had a very high regard for women because they gave birth to men. I am not sure but even women in ancient Sparta could hold political office. Or at least have a strong influence to politics.

 

[delizzle]

Atheists normally have enough intelligence to notice that women and men are equal.
A book is not needed to tell us something so basic.
And that you do need a book says a lot.

I agree that most people desire equal treatment with women. But someone's religious views do not necessarily have any reflection of their views on women's rights and status. All atheist are different some respect women and some don't. The only thing they have in common is their lack of belief on a god or God's.

 

[paarsurrey]

For my kids, not so much #3...definitely the first two though. Same with seeing them as a helper rather than a partner.

OK for the third, nevertheless it is there as you have mentioned it.
The situation would be different if one lives in a different land. There are tribal societies, societies ruled by a monarchy, societies ruled by a dictatorship, societies ruled by democracies etc mixed blend of some sort of the above.
If you don't mind; will you state which type of society you live in? Time, place and occasion are important dimensions on a issue, one cannot ignore it.
Regards