Muffled
Jesus in me
Jesus did not have to die for there to be a resurrection. Only the body had to be dead and the Bible reports that, just as it reports the resurrection of Jesus in a somewhat altered body.
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Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Jesus did not have to die for there to be a resurrection. Only the body had to be dead and the Bible reports that, just as it reports the resurrection of Jesus in a somewhat altered body.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
I thought we were discussing your misunderstanding of the Quran's verses. Verse 4:159 remember, that verse is in the Quran not the bible. Key word is Quran we are not discussing what the bible says about it. For the Bible contradicts in many places the Quran and it agrees with the Quran in many places. The bible contradicts itself so it is not the criterion for us to measure truth with.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Qur'an is spiritual truth. So is the Bible, the Vedas, the Gitas, etc. They have to be read with a spiritual eye, or else the literality one reads is just superstition.
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
Muffled
Jesus in me
If you can badmouth the Bible I can badmouth the Qu'ran. There is no way to know that Mohammed actually heard form an angel and that he didn't just make everything up.
Allah answered you in the Quran.
[82] Do they not consider the Qur-an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (Quran 4:82)
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Badmouthing the Bible is disrespectful to not just Christians but to Christ Himself.
Of course, in my point of view badmouthing the Quran is just as unforgiveable.
Regards,
Scott
Of course, in my point of view badmouthing the Quran is just as unforgiveable.
Regards,
Scott
Muffled
Jesus in me
Allah answered you in the Quran.
[82] Do they not consider the Qur-an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (Quran 4:82)
The consistency of the Qu'ran is abrogated if it's adherents misinterpret it to read contrary to the Bible. Then the Qu'ran becomes inconsistent with the Bible (something that God never intended). The Bible is not authenticated by consistency but by the fulfillment of prophecy. As far as I know the Qu'ran is not so authenticated. Even so I believe the Bible to be consistent.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Qur'an was revealed over decades, and in some instances a command in the Qur'an is later revised or modified as circumstances demanded it.
The condemnation of wine is one those particular laws, changed over the course of years as necessity demanded.
A good example of this is the ordinance against wine. The first law was never to pray whil e inebriated. THe law was later refined to never be inebriated and later to not drink wine at all.
It's kind of like the Talmud. In the talmud the law against boiling a calf in it's own mother's milk is carried to an extreme to build a fence around the law so the law cannot be violated even accidentally.
The dietary law becomes never to eat meat and dairy at the same meal.
Regards,
Scott
The condemnation of wine is one those particular laws, changed over the course of years as necessity demanded.
A good example of this is the ordinance against wine. The first law was never to pray whil e inebriated. THe law was later refined to never be inebriated and later to not drink wine at all.
It's kind of like the Talmud. In the talmud the law against boiling a calf in it's own mother's milk is carried to an extreme to build a fence around the law so the law cannot be violated even accidentally.
The dietary law becomes never to eat meat and dairy at the same meal.
Regards,
Scott
Many of the Christians in this forum told me that those who think that the bible is the word of God word by word missed the whole point, because the authors of the bible might err and put in the bible their own interpretation along with the word of God but that doesn't mean their interpretations are accurate, and thus, it might be corrected later on based on studies concerning that issue.
Therefore, your claim that just because the Quran contradicted the bible in some issues so the Quran can't be the word of God is a false claim based on the facts at hand which state that the bible is not the word of God as whole but only part of it.
As for Muslims, we believe that the Quran as a whole is the word of God, and there is no question about that amongest the Muslims, and its well authenticated.
Peace and blessing,
TT
I agree with you, but that will give the impression that the Quran have been changed by man through years. Nevertheless, as its well known to you, the wine issue happened in the life of prophet Mohammed and it was part of the Quran before the completion of the Quran in the life of the Prophet which took almost 23 years before Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" complete his mission and pass away.
If Jesus is not responsible for our sins, why would God allow him to die.
No one saw Jesus die on the cross. Several Bibles and passages say he did not die:
Bible of Barnabas: "The face of Yehuda who led the soldiers to arrest Christ was transfigured into that of Christ who had been rescued by the Angels through the window to the third Heaven."
Also the Bibles of Basilidains, Docetae, The Marcionite Gospel.
Here brothers and sisters you have 4 chosen and recognized Bibles, also Luke 20:34-36, 24:36-41, Hebrew 5:7 and John 20:17 support Jesus was saved.
The Bible says that Jesus did not die on the cross, that his loving creator saved Jesus from the cross as confirmed in the Koran. God loves Jesus.
Would a compassionate, forgiving, merciful God allow his anointed Jesus to die??
* To say he was sacrificed for us, opposes the Bible's teachings (Hosea6:6) and (Matthew 9:13 and 12:7).
* To say he died on the cross, discredits his prophethood (Deuteronomy 13:5) and (21:22-23).
The Jews claimed they killed him to prove he was a false prophet which they still believe. The Koran is here to unite the Jews and Christians and to have them submit their will to God, to be Muslims.
Where is the information on sacrifice coming from?
Paul, who was a Jew and his belief in Jewish sacrifice was transported into Christianity as suggested by a renowned New Testament scholar V. Taylor "The Atonement in the New Testament Teaching." Paul developed the idea by sending letters to the Corinthians, the Romans 4:25, He told the Galatians 6:4., and Ephesians 5:2, read the history yourself. Christianity is the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.
Who are we to believe??
Jesus came to confirm the Torah, not to destroy it (Matthew 23:2-3).
While Paul abolished the teachings of the Torah (Acts 13:39).
What hour was Jesus crucified??
(Mark 15:25) It was the third hour, and they crucified him.
(John 19:14) It was the sixth hour, and he was not yet crucified
Who bore the cross??
(Matthew 27:32) The compelled Simon to bear the cross of Jesus./ also(Luke 23:26)& (Mark 15:21).
(John 19:17) Jesus was bearing his cross himself.
What did they put Jesus on??
(Mark 15:21) They put Jesus on the cross.
(Peter 2:24) They put Jesus on the tree./ also (Gal3:13)
What did they give Jesus to drink??
(Mark 15:23) They gave him wine mingled with myrrh to drink.
(Matthew 27:34) Thew gave him vinegar mingled with gall to drink.
What happened to Judas??
(Mat 27:5) Judas went and hanged himself.
(Acts 1:18) Judas fell headlong, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Many earlier sects of Christians believed that it was Judas who died in the place of Jesus, with the contradictions at hand, maybe those earlier Christians were right.
Who went to the grave of Jesus??
(John 20:1) Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
(Mat 28:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary.
(Luke 24:10) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Jo'an-na and some other women.
(Mark 16:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Sa-lo'-me.
Angel??
(John 20:12) One woman saw two angels at the grave of Jesus.
(Mat 28:2) Two women saw one angel.
(Luke 24:3) Three women saw two men.
(Mark 16:5) Three women saw one man.
Who was told??
(Luke 24:9) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary the Mother of James and Jo'an-na returned back from the grave and told the eleven apostles all of what they saw.
(Mark 16:8) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary and Sa-lo'-me returned
back from the grave, and did not tell anyone anything because
they were afraid.
During the time of the assumed crucifixion, as you see, was a time of confusion, because no one saw Jesus die. (Matthew 26:56)
But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might
fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled."
So the Qur'an says: 4:157
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, butonly conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:"
When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.
Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?
The sacrifice that has to be made to be forgiven for our sins is the sacrifice of our will to the Creator Allah, as confirmed in the Bible.
Not only do we rely on faith, but also action and reality all combined.We believe in the same God, you have been taught by the recipients of your hard earned 10% of your income tithing that the Koran is not the word of God, that is sad, because then you would learn as every chapter begins "God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful."
In Islam, only 3% of your income goes straight to the poor, such as a relative. None is required to go the Church or Mosque. 3% of the wheat in the world would feed all the starving.
No one saw Jesus die on the cross. Several Bibles and passages say he did not die:
Bible of Barnabas: "The face of Yehuda who led the soldiers to arrest Christ was transfigured into that of Christ who had been rescued by the Angels through the window to the third Heaven."
Also the Bibles of Basilidains, Docetae, The Marcionite Gospel.
Here brothers and sisters you have 4 chosen and recognized Bibles, also Luke 20:34-36, 24:36-41, Hebrew 5:7 and John 20:17 support Jesus was saved.
The Bible says that Jesus did not die on the cross, that his loving creator saved Jesus from the cross as confirmed in the Koran. God loves Jesus.
Would a compassionate, forgiving, merciful God allow his anointed Jesus to die??
* To say he was sacrificed for us, opposes the Bible's teachings (Hosea6:6) and (Matthew 9:13 and 12:7).
* To say he died on the cross, discredits his prophethood (Deuteronomy 13:5) and (21:22-23).
The Jews claimed they killed him to prove he was a false prophet which they still believe. The Koran is here to unite the Jews and Christians and to have them submit their will to God, to be Muslims.
Where is the information on sacrifice coming from?
Paul, who was a Jew and his belief in Jewish sacrifice was transported into Christianity as suggested by a renowned New Testament scholar V. Taylor "The Atonement in the New Testament Teaching." Paul developed the idea by sending letters to the Corinthians, the Romans 4:25, He told the Galatians 6:4., and Ephesians 5:2, read the history yourself. Christianity is the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.
Who are we to believe??
Jesus came to confirm the Torah, not to destroy it (Matthew 23:2-3).
While Paul abolished the teachings of the Torah (Acts 13:39).
What hour was Jesus crucified??
(Mark 15:25) It was the third hour, and they crucified him.
(John 19:14) It was the sixth hour, and he was not yet crucified
Who bore the cross??
(Matthew 27:32) The compelled Simon to bear the cross of Jesus./ also(Luke 23:26)& (Mark 15:21).
(John 19:17) Jesus was bearing his cross himself.
What did they put Jesus on??
(Mark 15:21) They put Jesus on the cross.
(Peter 2:24) They put Jesus on the tree./ also (Gal3:13)
What did they give Jesus to drink??
(Mark 15:23) They gave him wine mingled with myrrh to drink.
(Matthew 27:34) Thew gave him vinegar mingled with gall to drink.
What happened to Judas??
(Mat 27:5) Judas went and hanged himself.
(Acts 1:18) Judas fell headlong, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Many earlier sects of Christians believed that it was Judas who died in the place of Jesus, with the contradictions at hand, maybe those earlier Christians were right.
Who went to the grave of Jesus??
(John 20:1) Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
(Mat 28:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary.
(Luke 24:10) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Jo'an-na and some other women.
(Mark 16:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Sa-lo'-me.
Angel??
(John 20:12) One woman saw two angels at the grave of Jesus.
(Mat 28:2) Two women saw one angel.
(Luke 24:3) Three women saw two men.
(Mark 16:5) Three women saw one man.
Who was told??
(Luke 24:9) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary the Mother of James and Jo'an-na returned back from the grave and told the eleven apostles all of what they saw.
(Mark 16:8) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary and Sa-lo'-me returned
back from the grave, and did not tell anyone anything because
they were afraid.
During the time of the assumed crucifixion, as you see, was a time of confusion, because no one saw Jesus die. (Matthew 26:56)
But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might
fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled."
So the Qur'an says: 4:157
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, butonly conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:"
When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.
Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?
The sacrifice that has to be made to be forgiven for our sins is the sacrifice of our will to the Creator Allah, as confirmed in the Bible.
Not only do we rely on faith, but also action and reality all combined.We believe in the same God, you have been taught by the recipients of your hard earned 10% of your income tithing that the Koran is not the word of God, that is sad, because then you would learn as every chapter begins "God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful."
In Islam, only 3% of your income goes straight to the poor, such as a relative. None is required to go the Church or Mosque. 3% of the wheat in the world would feed all the starving.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Many of the Christians in this forum told me that those who think that the bible is the word of God word by word missed the whole point, because the authors of the bible might err and put in the bible their own interpretation along with the word of God but that doesn't mean their interpretations are accurate, and thus, it might be corrected later on based on studies concerning that issue.
Therefore, your claim that just because the Quran contradicted the bible in some issues so the Quran can't be the word of God is a false claim based on the facts at hand which state that the bible is not the word of God as whole but only part of it.
As for Muslims, we believe that the Quran as a whole is the word of God, and there is no question about that amongest the Muslims, and its well authenticated.
Peace and blessing,
TT
That is not what I am saying. I believe that the Qu'ran and the Bible are in harmony when both are understood correctly. What I am saying is that the interpretation given to the Qu'ran by many Muslims is in contradiction to the Bible and therefore the interpretation is incorrect.
Here is what the Qu'ran says about the Bible: Sura 3:84 Say "We believe in Allah ... and in the books given to Moses, Jesus and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them"
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
I agree, of course. Many muslims would stipulate "them" to mean the Prophets, not necessarily the books, since many of the books no longer existed at the time.
I understand their distinction, but I do not believe it is justified.
To get more in context with the swingle verse quoted above:
79. It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allâh has given the Book and Al-Hukma (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion, etc.) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allâh's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyun (learned men of religion who practise what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it."
80. Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords (gods). Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allâh's Will? (Tafsir At-Tabarî).
81. And (remember) when Allâh took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allâh, etc.), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad
82. Then whoever turns away after this, they are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious: those who turn away from Allâh's Obedience).
83. Do they seek other than the religion of Allâh, while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned.
84. Say (O Muhammad
The Surah above does not even make a claim of finality for Muhammad.
Regardes,
Scott
Muffled
Jesus in me
The Qu'ran quotes a prophecy by the child Jesus that he would die and rise again to life: Sura 19:33 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life again!"
Jesus is God in the flesh and told His disciples that it was for that purpose (to die) that he came into the world.
Jesus did not die, He left before the body died. A Roman soldier did not break his legs because the body was already dead but he put a sword through his heart just to make sure. SInce the Biblical record is not provided by a Roman soldier it is safe to believe that it was His disciples who witnessed these things. In particular Mary His mother and the Apostle John were spoken to by Jesus from the cross.
Any such text that you might mention would not be the word of God because it contradicts the Bible. There is no book of Barnabus in the Bible.
I have never seen a verse in the Qu'ran that says that Jesus was saved from the cross.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Again this is not what we are talking about. No one is badmouthing anything we are interpreting the verses of the Quran that is it. and what do you mean by your last statement.
The bible has contradictions in it you cannot deny it. And it is not a criterion for us to measure truth. This is a true statement how is this badmouthing?
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
so where is your tafsir and hadith to support what you say about this verse. Again he is talking about rising on the Day of Resurrection.
So who was God praying to when he was on the cross. When God or Jesus said the father is greater then I who is he talking about. When Jesus was praying who was he praying to. Who is the one from his own statement in the bible that sent him and gave him the power.
so where is there books all we have is the canons which none of them but Mark was there and he was 10. Where is the Gospels of the companions of Jesus peace be upon him.
The book contradicts itself so of course it will contradict other books.
because the church, not God or Jesus removed it and called it apocrypha and did not consider someone who walked with him and whose own book says to recieve him when he comes as a testimony of him, not to mention it was in his language.
Your religious leaders change books, and scripture verses like hotels change sheets. Just as the protestants did to the catholics, and the JWs to them, and the Mormons etc. etc. the original king James version itself had books removed by someone other then King James.
Surah 4:157 And because of their saying, We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Now you have.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
so what does it mean when the book contradicts itself.
And how is the bible and quran in harmony. When the Quran says the bible is an altered book, no longer a revealed scripture it has been changed and altered as history has shown us. The interpretation of the Quran is from the context of the Messenger. You can come up with your own ideas about what the Quran means and you will be just everybody else who is lost. Trying to define something that has already been defined.
But you do not have the books revealed to any of them, why? Because you changed it as Allah said in many verses. He gave you the truth but you threw it behind your backs.
I mean really you must be joking find a good index of an english Quran and type in Scripture, you will see numerous verses giving you as a person of the book a clear picture about what Allah and Quran feel about you and your books.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Yes but only by the Quran itself, muslims cannot change anything. Please illustrate that when you make points like this.
I apologize but the shariah on alcohol did not change over time. It was permissible to a point, and after the ayat of quran came concerning it making it haram. They followed the decree of Allah. so it was allowed then the ayat came and it was forbidden.
No drinking wine was permissible. Then you could not pray while you are drinking. But drinking is still allowed. Then after that they were not allowed to drink at all.
The law was not refined Allah did not want muslims showing up to pray drunk. they were still allowed to drink.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Dear Mujahid,
You do not have the right to say Christians have thrown anything away.
The is extreme pride before God and God does not allow His servants to wax proud.
Regards,
Scott
You do not have the right to say Christians have thrown anything away.
The is extreme pride before God and God does not allow His servants to wax proud.
Regards,
Scott
JayHawes
Active Member
Jesus faced something no other man had faced. Unlike the two theives to his side. Jesus had no sleep at all for a whole day, becuase they came and took him in the middle of the night as he was praying. The religious leaders took turns smacking Jesus, spitting on him, kicking him, calling him all kinds of names, and puching him in his head and stomach. Jesus was taken to the slaughter as the Roman soldiers took rope, covered in sharp lamb bones and smacked it across Jesus' body. Jesus became so bloody so torn that no man could recognize him, for his face was ripped to streads as the bones tore across his face. Jesus then had to carry the cross beam across his back. Having no sleep, being beaten, being slaughterd, he struggled to carry this beam. He was nailed to the cross through his hands, and his feet. He struggled to breathe as blood filled his lungs slowly. HIs organs bruised, the gravity pulled him down. The nails twisted in his hands as he raised up[ to take a breathe. Then in the middle of it all, God forsoke him. Why? Becuase Jesus became sin, carrying the most horrible sin, for you and me. He took on my sins, your sins, and the sins of the whole world, if only they would believe in him.
Jesus knew he would suffer, he knew he would be in pain. So why did he question his father, becuase he knew what he would face. This cannot be compared to Abraham and Issac. Issac would not suffer. Issac was not beated. Issac was not sinless. Issac was nottorn to shreds by sheep bones. Issac if killed would die almost painless, almost quickly....while Jesus would hang in agony, for your sins, for 3 hours. Why 3 hours? Becuase of the horrors that happened before then. Thank God that God forsake Jesus on the Cross. Becuase if he didn't he would forsake me and you and every oother man and woman and child. But beucase Jesus took our sins, we dont have to worry. Jesus did not insult God, he made him so happy becasue he was obidient unto death:
Php 2:7 Jesus made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
___________
The Bible does not say that Jesus didn't die on the cross. You reference books that are not in the Bible, that have been proven to be flasely escribed. And you read into scripture what is not there becuase you do not understand the words of Jesus and the Apostles. If you're going to reference the rest. Where Jesus says he has come to save the world, (not to be saved):
Joh 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.
Jesus said "Ye know that after two days is the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified" Mt 26:2
Jesus here acknlowges that he will be crufied
Lu 9:20 He said to them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answering, said, Christ of God.
Lu 9:21 And he strictly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing,
Lu 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and be put to death, and be raised the third day.
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.