Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Popeyesays]

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

Which is pregnant with meaning, on many levels, and repeated several times.

I would point out that Muhammad claims to be sent by God and to be an 'Apostle of God' which has the same functional meaning as 'Manifestation" in the Baha`i sense. He also says that Jesus was an Apostle of God as were Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Noah, Hud, Salih, Solomon, David, Lot.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Scott, Thank you. I have a couple of questions about this.

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

Which is pregnant with meaning, on many levels, and repeated several times.

Can you explain the meaning that shows Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not God?

I would point out that Muhammad claims to be sent by God and to be an 'Apostle of God' which has the same functional meaning as 'Manifestation" in the Baha`i sense. He also says that Jesus was an Apostle of God as were Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Noah, Hud, Salih, Solomon, David, Lot.
Regards,
Scott

Solomon, David and Lot were also Manifestations of God on the order of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? They did not claim such, and neither did Moses or any of the rest. Nor did Buddha. Can you explain this?

 

[Popeyesays]

Hi Scott, Thank you. I have a couple of questions about this.



Can you explain the meaning that shows Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not God?



Solomon, David and Lot were also Manifestations of God on the order of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? They did not claim such, and neither did Moses or any of the rest. Nor did Buddha. Can you explain this?

Well, a man and woman are one flesh according to the bible, does that mean they are physically conjoined within a single body? No.
In most places Jesus makes a distinction between Himself and God:
11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(King James Bible, Mark)

13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
(King James Bible, Mark) Over and over Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man, not the Son of God.

14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
(King James Bible, Mark)

6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
(King James Bible, Matthew)

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

There are hundreds of such verses that draw a clear distinction between Jesus and God.

Baha`i's say there are three Great Unities:
God is One
Mankind is One
All the Religions are One

This does not mean mankind is God.

The Qur'an lists several Apostles and Prophets of God. Just as Jesus said They do not speak what They desire, but what God desires Them to speak. If They did not lay claim to something, it was at God's behest.

Muhammad had the authority to name and honor the Apostles of God before Him. God directed that He do so.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Hi Scott, Thank you. I have a couple of questions about this.



Can you explain the meaning that shows Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not God?



Solomon, David and Lot were also Manifestations of God on the order of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? They did not claim such, and neither did Moses or any of the rest. Nor did Buddha. Can you explain this?

Well, a man and woman are one flesh according to the bible, does that mean they are physically conjoined within a single body? No.
In most places Jesus makes a distinction between Himself and God:
11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(King James Bible, Mark)

13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
(King James Bible, Mark) Over and over Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man, not the Son of God.

14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
(King James Bible, Mark)

6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
(King James Bible, Matthew)

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

There are hundreds of such verses that draw a clear distinction between Jesus and God.

Baha`i's say there are three Great Unities:
God is One
Mankind is One
All the Religions are One

This does not mean mankind is God.

The Qur'an lists several Apostles and Prophets of God. Just as Jesus said They do not speak what They desire, but what God desires Them to speak. If They did not lay claim to something, it was at God's behest.

Muhammad had the authority to name and honor the Apostles of God before Him. God directed that He do so.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

"What I meant was that the Bible says Jesus was crucified and the Qur'an says He was not."

Again, define Jesus in His state of being. Was Jesus the Christ the body or the spirit?

Which is more important? Which was subject to death?

God brings us each and everyone to life, the He slays us--each and everyone. Every MAN dies. Jesus died. But the Manifestation of God, the APostle of God, The Spirit of God does not die.

There is your reconciliation.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Aupmanyav]

Qur'an: Did Jesus die? - Does it matter? To half the world it does not.

 

[lunamoth]

Well, a man and woman are one flesh according to the bible, does that mean they are physically conjoined within a single body? No.
In most places Jesus makes a distinction between Himself and God:
11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(King James Bible, Mark)

13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
(King James Bible, Mark) Over and over Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man, not the Son of God.

14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
(King James Bible, Mark)

6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
(King James Bible, Matthew)

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

There are hundreds of such verses that draw a clear distinction between Jesus and God.

Those verses distinguish between Jesus and the Father, I see that. Of course the Christian view is that they are two Persons of the Trinity.

I am still unclear how this explains the distinction between Jesus being God vs. being a Manifestation of God.

Baha`i's say there are three Great Unities:
God is One
Mankind is One
All the Religions are One

This does not mean mankind is God.

???

So when Jesus said The Father and I are one it had no more significance than when I say my husband and I are one?

The Qur'an lists several Apostles and Prophets of God. Just as Jesus said They do not speak what They desire, but what God desires Them to speak. If They did not lay claim to something, it was at God's behest.

Muhammad had the authority to name and honor the Apostles of God before Him. God directed that He do so.

Regards,
Scott

So, Solomon, David and Lot were also Manifestations of God on the order of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah?

BTW, if anyone thinks this is too far off-topic I apologize and will withdraw my questions. I was thinking that this thread was aimed at reconciling the differences between Islam and Christianity, and the Baha'i Faith claims to be able to make this reconciliation. To me, however, as legitimate as the Baha'i beliefs are to Baha'is, to others they are not a reconciliation, but just a different interpretation with no more logical basis than the others.

 

[Popeyesays]

"So, Solomon, David and Lot were also Manifestations of God on the order of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah?

BTW, if anyone thinks this is too far off-topic I apologize and will withdraw my questions. I was thinking that this thread was aimed at reconciling the differences between Islam and Christianity, and the Baha'i Faith claims to be able to make this reconciliation. To me, however, as legitimate as the Baha'i beliefs are to Baha'is, to others they are not a reconciliation, but just a different interpretation with no more logical basis than the others."

It isn't up to us to rank them in importance. Each of Them was part to Knowledge that I will never attain, how much of that knowledge they were directed to give us may seem to rank Them in importance, but that is not our role.

The Manifestations of God are a different Order of Creation than I. That does not make them God,

As to the Trinity, it is not in the Gospels at all. Jesus makes no statement about the "Trinity". THe Son of Man is not part of the trinity invented by the Disciples after the passing of Christ; yet SOn of Man is what Jesus calls Himself.

Son of God is a fine metaphor, but it does not mean that Jesus shares the DNA of God, or IS God in any sense. God is without partners or equals. God is SIngle and Unknowable to His Creation.

One cannot contain the oceans in a teacup, nor God in the body of a man. If you wish to say Jesus is the Avatar of God (in the Hindu sense of the word) I don't think I'd argue one little bit. But the Avatar of God is not God. It is limited by it's very creation.

I'm sure you remember the Baha`i Ring Symbol -- the vertical line passing through the three horizontal lines. It symbolizes the Spirit of God flowing from God through the kingdoms of Creation, But God is not one of those horizontal lines. God can't be represented. A man CAN be represented. A Manifestation of God can be represented. Therefore neither is God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

"So, Solomon, David and Lot were also Manifestations of God on the order of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah?


It isn't up to us to rank them in importance. Each of Them was part to Knowledge that I will never attain, how much of that knowledge they were directed to give us may seem to rank Them in importance, but that is not our role.

I'm not asking to rank them; were Solomon, David and Lot Manifestations of God?

The Manifestations of God are a different Order of Creation than I. That does not make them God,

I'm sure you remember the Baha`i Ring Symbol -- the vertical line passing through the three horizontal lines. It symbolizes the Spirit of God flowing from God through the kingdoms of Creation, But God is not one of those horizontal lines. God can't be represented. A man CAN be represented. A Manifestation of God can be represented. Therefore neither is God.

So, a Manifestation of God is not a human being? Something in between human and God? Is there anything supernatural about a Manifestation of God which sets them apart from the rest of us?

As to the Trinity, it is not in the Gospels at all. Jesus makes no statement about the "Trinity". THe Son of Man is not part of the trinity invented by the Disciples after the passing of Christ; yet SOn of Man is what Jesus calls Himself.

My point is that Jesus made no more mention of Himself being a Manifestation of God than of being God. If you consider the Trinity conjecture on the part of humans, then Jesus as Manifestation of God is equally conjecture.

Son of God is a fine metaphor, but it does not mean that Jesus shares the DNA of God, or IS God in any sense. God is without partners or equals. God is SIngle and Unknowable to His Creation.

I don't know where the thing about DNA comes into this, that's not anything I've said or would say. I agree, God is without partners or equals. God is Single. God is transcendent (unknowable) and immanent (we are in relationship with Him).

Again, my point is that these are two different ways of viewing the nature of Jesus Christ, neither is logically superior, neither is historically superior, although I think the Christian view is theologically superior.

One cannot contain the oceans in a teacup, nor God in the body of a man. If you wish to say Jesus is the Avatar of God (in the Hindu sense of the word) I don't think I'd argue one little bit. But the Avatar of God is not God. It is limited by it's very creation.

You keep saying this. I think I understand what you mean, but it does not undermine the Trinity, nor the Incarnation. Why couldn't God Incarnate as Christians believe?

 

[Popeyesays]

So, a Manifestation of God is not a human being? Something in between human and God? Is there anything supernatural about a Manifestation of God which sets them apart from the rest of us?

A human being is something different than an animal. How? Man has free will and the exercise of logic and reason.

The Manifestation is something different from human. How? He shares a degree of communion with the Will of God that is not possible for me.

Are Lot, Solomon, David and Noah Manifestations of God? The Qur'an says so. The Kitab'i'Iqan says so. We extrapolate from the texts to determine what a Manifestation is and is not, and we have the word of Those we recognize as such. Jesus honored Moses said the law would not be changed a jot or a tittle, He was speaking metaphorically of course.

Jesus says He and God are one. One in purpose. One in Message. One in everything--except one and the same.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

"You keep saying this. I think I understand what you mean, but it does not undermine the Trinity, nor the Incarnation. Why couldn't God Incarnate as Christians believe?"

Because Creation cannot contain the Creator. The Creator existed before Creation. Creation depends upon God for existence. God does not depend upon Creation for existence.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

"You keep saying this. I think I understand what you mean, but it does not undermine the Trinity, nor the Incarnation. Why couldn't God Incarnate as Christians believe?"

Because Creation cannot contain the Creator. The Creator existed before Creation. Creation depends upon God for existence. God does not depend upon Creation for existence.

Regards,
Scott

The Incarnation does not say that creation is containing the Creator. God was fully coexistent with creation. God was not absent from anywhere during the time Jesus was on earth. The Incarnation also does not imply that God depends upon creation for existence. In Revelation 22, Jesus speaking says: 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

That sounds to me like He coexisted with the Creator eternally and before creation.

Anyway, this is getting to be like an angels dancing on pins discussion. Thank you for explaining your POV.

 

[lunamoth]

A human being is something different than an animal. How? Man has free will and the exercise of logic and reason.

The Manifestation is something different from human. How? He shares a degree of communion with the Will of God that is not possible for me.

A Manifestation has an endowment not shared by other humans. I think I understand what you are saying.

Are Lot, Solomon, David and Noah Manifestations of God? The Qur'an says so. The Kitab'i'Iqan says so.

This is new to me...I had no idea that Lot, Solomon and David were considered Manifestations, perfect reflections, of God.

We extrapolate from the texts to determine what a Manifestation is and is not, and we have the word of Those we recognize as such. Jesus honored Moses said the law would not be changed a jot or a tittle, He was speaking metaphorically of course.

I don't think He was speaking metaphorically. He did not change the law. When the rich man asked Him what to do to gain eternal life, Jesus replied that he must keep the commandments. Beyond that we are to 'follow Him.' Jesus taught that we all have direct access to God, through Him (what He did), not through the law (what we do). When He died, the veil was torn. However, the law, when followed in the light of the two greatest commandments, is the way for us to love each other. No need to change the law, it is written on our hearts.

Jesus says He and God are one. One in purpose. One in Message. One in everything--except one and the same.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott

If His message were the only important thing, that would be sufficient.

Yours,
Laurie

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I did answer the half of your question that was new. The Gospel does not say that God descended upon Mary to quicken her. It says the Spirit of God descended on her.

As to the other half of the question, I've answered it many times.

Regards,
Scott

I asked you to reconcile the texts. Reconcile the issue that Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. The Quran says clearly otherwise, How they the people of the book changed the word of God for their own worldly benefits. How the Christians need to desist in saying that Allah is Three or part of a Trinity. Allah is one. How no religion other than Islam on the Day of Judgment will be accepted and all those who are not under its fold are doomed to eternal punishment. The issue as to Mary is not about the angel it is the idea that she is carrying God in her womb. This is where the contention lies. This is what I have been asking you to reconcile. The fact that they say God was begotten by a women. The Quran clearly says this is false.

This is what I am talking about. You say your religion reconciles the text because you believe they are both works of God. And I ask you how do you reconcile something when one of them says that it is the word of God and all others are false because they have been altered from their original state.

Please this is what I am asking you to reconcile. I contend that their is no reconciliation unless you twist the meaning of Quran and interpret it in some context you created or heard from someone who is probably very un informed, instead of taking it in the Quran orders us to understand the religion from and that is the understanding of the Messenger and his companions.

I pray this is not the case.

Peace.

Mujahid

 

[Popeyesays]

I think that when Christians--or anyone else, for that matter--think Jesus is the literal "Son of God" they are speaking with no scriptural basis whatsoever. I've said that over and over, and over and over some more.

God does not have nor does He need progeny. Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man, and that has a great deal of significance in the TaNakh and it is a much more important claim.

Do you understand the term "no scriptural basis"?

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

Jesus title was "Son of God" we Baha'is believe which is more of a spiritual relationship of a father with a son just as Abraham was the "friend of God" meaning a relationship of friendship. Over past ages people took more of a literal meaning to the term "Son of God" because it was understood as a literal thing like Son of Zeus and so on.

Baha'i "theology" may not be as defined as yet but the Manifestation of God is a mediator between God and man (and the creation) as Abdul-Baha said:

Surely such a great Man, Who is the mediator of the Divine Bounty and the deliverer of the Law, must necessarily obey the commands of God. These Holy Souls are like the leaves of a tree which are put in motion by the blowing of the wind, and not by Their own desire; for They are attracted by the breeze of the love of God, and Their will is absolutely submissive. Their word is the word of God; Their commandment is the commandment of God; Their prohibition is the prohibition of God. They are like the glass globe which receives light from the lamp. Although the light appears to emanate from the glass, in reality it is shining from the lamp.

 

[lunamoth]

I think that when Christians--or anyone else, for that matter--think Jesus is the literal "Son of God" they are speaking with no scriptural basis whatsoever. I've said that over and over, and over and over some more.

God does not have nor does He need progeny. Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man, and that has a great deal of significance in the TaNakh and it is a much more important claim.

Do you understand the term "no scriptural basis"?

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott, But as a former Christian you of course know that Christianity is about following Jesus, not just about Scripture. It's a Christ-centered religion, not a book-centered religion as Islam is. And most Muslims also believe that the hadith are important for living out their religon in the full.

Scripture, Tradition and Reason...and actually Scripture is part of Tradition. The first Christians did not have the Gospels; they had the example of Christ and what they concluded He was. From that the Gospels were written.

Elevating the literal interpretation of the Bible over the principles of Christianity is a form of idolatry. Even Protestant reformers who developed the doctrine of sola scriptura recognized the Trinity as our best expression of the nature of God handed down from the apostles and the Incarnation as our best expression of the nature of Christ, from a Christian view.

 

[Popeyesays]

Luna,

Yes, Christianity is about following Christ. But this is true even of the more book-founded religions. It's always about following the Prophet of the Faith, that's what we are called upon to do.

When I WAS a Christian, I had deep and serious problems relating the concept of Jesus as God on Earth. The Trinity did not make sense to me as a rational presentation of that shared Divinity.

It was my belief that divinity could not be shared. What Jesus is actually saying in the Gospels does not leave support for that traditional interpretation of God, the Messenger and the Message.

Even Islam (which you note as a book-founded religion) depends upon traditions that are not scriptural. In fact even, Muhammad says that the Qur'an is complete and nothing else is needed. So why give weight to traditions?

Any of these "traditional" doctrines is more likely to become superstition than a valid path to God.

As to viewpoint, well I always talk from my point of view--every human does. To talk from some other person's point of view is an assumption that is very unreliable. I do not really know anyone else's true point of view. I only know what from MY point of view seems to be THEIR point of view.

To rely on doctrine that cannot be substantiated in the texts of the faith in question is a shifting foundation. This is true whether it be the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus' Divinity, the Seal of the Prophets, or the Day of Judgment.

If I cannot find a way to rationally accept something from my own point of view, I think God intends for me NOT to accept it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

Yes, Christianity is about following Christ. But this is true even of the more book-founded religions. It's always about following the Prophet of the Faith, that's what we are called upon to do.

When I WAS a Christian, I had deep and serious problems relating the concept of Jesus as God on Earth. The Trinity did not make sense to me as a rational presentation of that shared Divinity.

It was my belief that divinity could not be shared. What Jesus is actually saying in the Gospels does not leave support for that traditional interpretation of God, the Messenger and the Message.

Even Islam (which you note as a book-founded religion) depends upon traditions that are not scriptural. In fact even, Muhammad says that the Qur'an is complete and nothing else is needed. So why give weight to traditions?

Any of these "traditional" doctrines is more likely to become superstition than a valid path to God.

As to viewpoint, well I always talk from my point of view--every human does. To talk from some other person's point of view is an assumption that is very unreliable. I do not really know anyone else's true point of view. I only know what from MY point of view seems to be THEIR point of view.

To rely on doctrine that cannot be substantiated in the texts of the faith in question is a shifting foundation. This is true whether it be the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus' Divinity, the Seal of the Prophets, or the Day of Judgment.

If I cannot find a way to rationally accept something from my own point of view, I think God intends for me NOT to accept it.

Regards,
Scott

That's all very reasonable Scott. I can certainly understand that for whatever reason these doctrines did not make sense to you. You're not alone. As for myself I guess I've come to realize that it is not for us to have certainty about the exact nature of God. A Manifestation of God is not more rational than the Incarnation of God, although they have different theological implications. I know that others are not satisfied with that approach and that's fine with me. I was responding to this particular statement:

I think that when Christians--or anyone else, for that matter--think Jesus is the literal "Son of God" they are speaking with no scriptural basis whatsoever. I've said that over and over, and over and over some more.

Clearly Christians believe that they are speaking from a scriptural basis. You did not seem to leave much room for the fact, unless you feel that you should know better than Christians do about their own religion?

yours,
luna

 

[Popeyesays]

That's all very reasonable Scott. I can certainly understand that for whatever reason these doctrines did not make sense to you. You're not alone. As for myself I guess I've come to realize that it is not for us to have certainty about the exact nature of God. A Manifestation of God is not more rational than the Incarnation of God, although they have different theological implications. I know that others are not satisfied with that approach and that's fine with me. I was responding to this particular statement:

I think that when Christians--or anyone else, for that matter--think Jesus is the literal "Son of God" they are speaking with no scriptural basis whatsoever. I've said that over and over, and over and over some more.

Clearly Christians believe that they are speaking from a scriptural basis. You did not seem to leave much room for the fact, unless you feel that you should know better than Christians do about their own religion?

yours,
luna

The only scriptural basis in the Gospels is when Peter says: "16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Even here he denies the importance of the flesh. Clerly the flesh is not the son of God, but the Spirit is.

Regards,
Scott