Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Actually, Mujahid I think you've jumbled my statements with the statements of others, so I do not think I can reply, until you unjumble the quotes.

Regards,
Scott

I was referring to your response to something I said in 219#

 

[Popeyesays]

I was referring to your response to something I said in 219#

Is this what you meant?:

"Dear Mujahid,

You do not have the right to say Christians have thrown anything away.

The is extreme pride before God and God does not allow His servants to wax proud.

Regards,
Scott"

If so, perhaps this will add some light:
""The Bahá'í view on that subject is that the Dispensation of Muhammad, like all other Divine Dispensations, has been fore-ordained, and that as such forms and integral part of the Divine Plan for the spiritual, moral and social, development of mankind, It is not an isolated religious phenomenon, but is closely and historically related to the Dispensation of Christ, and those of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. It was intended by God to succeed Christianity, and it was therefore the duty of the Christians to accept it as firmly as they had adhered to the religion of Christ.
"You should also cautiously emphasize the truth that due to the historical order of its appearance, and also because of the obviously more advanced character of its teachings, Islam constitutes a fuller revelation of God's purpose for mankind. The so-called Christian civilization of which the Renaissance is one of the most striking manifestations is essentially Muslim in its origins and foundations. When medieval Europe was plunged in darkest barbarism, the Arabs regenerated and transformed by the spirit released by the religion of Muhammad were busily engaged in establishing a civilization the kind of which their contemporary Christians in Europe had never witnessed before. It was eventually through Arabs that civilization was introduced to the West. It was through them that the philosophy, science and culture which the old Greeks had developed found their way to Europe. The Arabs were the ablest translators, and linguists of their age, and it is thanks to them that the writings of such well-known thinkers as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle were made available to the Westerners. It is wholly unfair to attribute the efflorescence of European culture during the Renaissance period to the influence of Christianity. It was mainly the product of the forces released by the Muhammadan Dispensation.
"From the standpoint of institutionalism Islam far surpasses true Christianity as we know it in the Gospels. There are infinitely more laws and institutions in the Qur'án than in the Gospel. While the latter's emphasis is mainly, not to say wholly, on individual and personal conduct, the Qur'án stresses the importance of society. This social emphasis acquires added importance and significance in the Bahá'í Revelation. When carefully and impartially compared, the Qur'án marks a definite advancement on the Gospel, from the standpoint of spiritual and humanitarian progress. 496
"The truth is that Western historians have for many centuries distorted the facts to suit their religious and ancestral prejudices. The Bahá'ís should try to study history anew, and to base all their investigations first and foremost on the written Scriptures of Islam and Christianity."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 27, 1936)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 495)

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I have seen this verse and it says nothing about Jesus being saved from the cross. You have fantasized that it says this but it doesn't. This is another instance of a Muslim rearranging the Qu'ran to agree with their own ideas instead of accepting the word of God.

Crucified Him Not, what is what suppossedly happened to him on the cross. According to your understanding. So if your understanding is what I think it is, that is to say you agree with 95% of christians. Then if he was not crucified, and that God raised him, Jesus, up to Himself. How is he not being saved from the cross. Jesus peace be upon him the son of mary, prayed to Allah, Allah rescued him by raising him to Him. Not dead, not bloody, not beaten, not downtrodden, not forsaken (as Jesus says on the cross). But saved from the punishment they thought they were inflicting upon him, because as the verse clearly say, they killed him not, nor crucified.

rearranging the Quran, are you even listening to yourself. My son comes to me and says some guys are trying to beat me up at school. so I take him out of school. Did I save my son from being beaten up.

So let me understand you. according to the Quran and the sunnah. for the sunnah helps interpret the Quran. Because the understanding of Quran or exegesis of the text is based on the context of what Allah and His Messenger say. So if you or anybody including muslims try to define it or understand it from any other context you will always run into problems of misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

Now if Jesus was being threated as we all, Christians and Muslims, possibly Jews know and believe he was under pressure and was in fear of imprisonment, and persecution with no doubt torture (I mean it is the romans we are talking about) by the Romans and jews. He did what every prophet and messenger of Allah has done which is pray to Allah, not himself because he himself is not Allah, but would pray to Allah to ask Him for help. Now Allah responded, He raised Jesus up to Himself, unharmed and unscafed and whatever crucifixtion took place it was not Jesus who endured the strain. We believe as muslims that one of the disciples sacrificed himself for Jesus, but that is another issue.

So if Jesus was under strain and distress he as many of us do prays to Allah, and Alllah saves him by raising him, Jesus up to, Himself (Allah). and someone was put on the cross in his place and people thought it was him, because this was the punishment they had in store for him. Would not saving him be that if something was going to happen to you, and someone prevented it from happening in one way or another is that not saving them. So if Allah took Jesus up to Himself and the Romans and Sadduccees took some other guy and it appeared to them that it was him but they killed him not nor crucified him. What does that signify?

This is a problem with the Qu'ran. One event is listed right after another but no time separation is indicated. If one were to assume that the death and resurrection were that closely tied it would be in agreement with the Bible that the resurrection of Jesus occurred within the same time frame.

Quran was not sent by Allah to agree with the bible it was sent to show the people the truth from Allah the truth and simple reality that the people of the book, the jews and christian scribes took the books of guidance from Allah and changed them to their own worldy means. They altered the scripture and many of the things contained are of things with which there is no certain knowledge. and your scholars have proven through categorically comparing the historical nature of the scriptures, their compilation, the interpretations of early church fathers and the actual texts themselves that they have been altered and changed by many known and unknown scribes and church fathers.

The Ascension was not a rising from death since Jesus was alive when He ascended. Jesus does not have to arise on the day of resurrection because he is still alive from the time He ascended.

this is your belief based on what is contained in your book, we are talking about the Quran.

I don't know how you can be so misinformed. The canon of the Bible was well established by 666AD when the Qu'ran was taking shape.

What does the canon establishment have to do with anything how the suppossed witness or testimony of the scriptures you have is not even from the individuals who you say authored them. You have altered copies of copies of copies of copies. the oldest emparchment of Luke is not even the original luke. It is not even a copy of a copy of a copy. Your church fathers and scribes do not even know what Luke really said. so what if the bible came before it. it just had 666 years of alteration, and remixing to go through. I mean the bible has got to the be the Greatest work of all time that is still in progress. Because you cats just keep changing it. Everytime you don't like something, Oh lets just take it out. Put this in its sounds better.

Are the people who do this mad, have they just completely lost all logical senses. They changed the word of God. And the book they changed even warns against that. Subhanallah, your books warns you against it, your scholars prove it has been done, and yet you still accept it as the ABSOLUTE truth from God. Autho billah, it is amazing.

You will have to document this

because I have no information that Barnabus was ever a book in the Bible. In fact I don't remeber seeing this as part of the Apochrypha either.

What do you mean the oldest known complete copy of the New Testament. The codex sinaticus. Has the gospel of barnabus in it. It is the oldest. And Apochrypha is according to whose idealogy you accept. The protestants say 7 of the catholic books are apochrypha. The Mormons say this, Luther this is this and this is that. The original KJV had 80 books, the bishop of Canteburry came and took the books out saying they were apocrypha. Amazing the original KJV that they claim to read is not even the original. For the original had 80 books. 200 years later long after KJ is dead someone changed it so it is actually the unathorized authorized version of the KJ

That is a definite exaggeration. Christianity is not as firmly tied to the scripture as other religions because we have God at our disposal as the Paraclete.

So by your statement Christians are not tied firmly to the scripture, yet you expect me to believe it is the infallible word of God. if the bible is God word why should I not be firmly tied to it. that sounds like hypocricy. Believe something whole heartedly is from God yet you are not firmly tied to the the contents of the scriptures you get the relgious beliefs from.

If that is the case why should I accept it then

This way we don't get caught up in misinterpretations as the Muslims and Jews do because our faith is in the living God not in ourselves. Muslims have developed this myth about the Bible being changed so that they can ignore the word of God. And Muslims don't have the Paraclete to correct their thinking in this regard. Of course you are still without excuse because you can have the faith of Abraham and hear God directly as Abraham did.

Try reading some books which will give you scriptural evidence. They have seen the scriptures, the ones in the vatican the one held by the church. The ones everyone needs to see but no one is allowed to see. It there read their books see what they say. there is obvious alteration.

You say it is the word of God but also that you are not firmly attached to the scripture which gives you the evidence to preach your religion. That makes no sense, so just believe without any knowledge or understanding. Wow, people will never have blind faith with their money, but in terms of their eternal blessing or punishment they leave it to chance. truly amazing, all the knowledge is gathered in terms of worldly matters but in terms of religion just accept what you are told without looking at the evidence. Just believe no matter what common sense or rational thinking tells you.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Is this what you meant?:

"Dear Mujahid,

You do not have the right to say Christians have thrown anything away.

The is extreme pride before God and God does not allow His servants to wax proud.

Regards,
Scott"

If so, perhaps this will add some light:
""The Bahá'í view on that subject is that the Dispensation of Muhammad, like all other Divine Dispensations, has been fore-ordained, and that as such forms and integral part of the Divine Plan for the spiritual, moral and social, development of mankind, It is not an isolated religious phenomenon, but is closely and historically related to the Dispensation of Christ, and those of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. It was intended by God to succeed Christianity, and it was therefore the duty of the Christians to accept it as firmly as they had adhered to the religion of Christ.
"You should also cautiously emphasize the truth that due to the historical order of its appearance, and also because of the obviously more advanced character of its teachings, Islam constitutes a fuller revelation of God's purpose for mankind. The so-called Christian civilization of which the Renaissance is one of the most striking manifestations is essentially Muslim in its origins and foundations. When medieval Europe was plunged in darkest barbarism, the Arabs regenerated and transformed by the spirit released by the religion of Muhammad were busily engaged in establishing a civilization the kind of which their contemporary Christians in Europe had never witnessed before. It was eventually through Arabs that civilization was introduced to the West. It was through them that the philosophy, science and culture which the old Greeks had developed found their way to Europe. The Arabs were the ablest translators, and linguists of their age, and it is thanks to them that the writings of such well-known thinkers as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle were made available to the Westerners. It is wholly unfair to attribute the efflorescence of European culture during the Renaissance period to the influence of Christianity. It was mainly the product of the forces released by the Muhammadan Dispensation.
"From the standpoint of institutionalism Islam far surpasses true Christianity as we know it in the Gospels. There are infinitely more laws and institutions in the Qur'án than in the Gospel. While the latter's emphasis is mainly, not to say wholly, on individual and personal conduct, the Qur'án stresses the importance of society. This social emphasis acquires added importance and significance in the Bahá'í Revelation. When carefully and impartially compared, the Qur'án marks a definite advancement on the Gospel, from the standpoint of spiritual and humanitarian progress. 496
"The truth is that Western historians have for many centuries distorted the facts to suit their religious and ancestral prejudices. The Bahá'ís should try to study history anew, and to base all their investigations first and foremost on the written Scriptures of Islam and Christianity."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 27, 1936)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 495)

OK I agree with some of what you said but it is still does not touch on the the point that I still do not see what this has to do with saying Christians do not have the right to threw something away.

they changed the scriptures, not just bibles but the sources for the bible were altered. this is a fact. You tell me do they have the right to do that. To throw away some and take some of Gods words. Do they have that right.

 

[Popeyesays]

OK I agree with some of what you said but it is still does not touch on the the point that I still do not see what this has to do with saying Christians do not have the right to threw something away.

they changed the scriptures, not just bibles but the sources for the bible were altered. this is a fact. You tell me do they have the right to do that. To throw away some and take some of Gods words. Do they have that right.

They did not change the scripture. God does not allow His word to be changed. I trust God to protect it.

There is not so much there in the Injeel. It is about personal conduct and personal salvation. The Qur'an is much more, it provides a system of law and society that the Gospel does not trouble itselof with. Why does the Gospel not trouble it \self in that way? Because it pleases God for the Gospel not to do that.

regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

They did not change the scripture. God does not allow His word to be changed. I trust God to protect it.

I see you have not read any books by those scholars who have examined the greek and latin text from which the bible was compiled and have concluded that yes it has been altered by a whole lot of unamed authors. get the books in the earlier posts you will have you evidence of alteration. It is clear and concise and cannot be refuted for it is a fact. I hate to say it and I am sorry it is that way but, it is what it is.

There is not so much there in the Injeel. It is about personal conduct and personal salvation.

how would you know when the Injeel does not exist anymore because of alteration.

The Qur'an is much more, it provides a system of law and society that the Gospel does not trouble itselof with.

I agree and?

Why does the Gospel not trouble it \self in that way? Because it pleases God for the Gospel not to do that.

regards,
Scott

that is if is is the word of God mor you believe it is. Speaking about the bible. for the perception may override the rationality of the contents.

 

[Muffled]

Quran 4:157 (Arberry Translation)
and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;



Are you about to seriously teach me how to read the Quran. Will you be teaching me in arabic as well?



I think I see where you're going. Are you saying that Jesus was put up on the cross but wasn't slained, wasn't crucified, because the act itself was halted by God in the next verse saying he was raised up?

"and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. "

However you try to interpert it, he wasn't slained or crucified. The original question will still be NO.. He didn't die.



So now you can understand how muslims arrived at the notion that the bible has been tampered with. It may or may not be intentional but the different manuscripts of the bible do raise the questions.

If you can't undestand the English translation it is doubtful that the Arabic will improve your understanding but I don't believe understanding can be taught.

No. the text does not say that God halted anything. However the Bible indicates that Jesus did not die but left and then the body died. So God can say in the Qu'ran that He was not slain nor crucified but of course it appeared to everyone that He was because that is what they saw. They could not see the spirit of God leave before death. So God did not stop the process of crucifixion and death, He simply did not participate in it.

Although God did not experience the death of the body it died anyway. There was no way He could return to it until He had resurrected it.

Notion is most likely it as in conjecture. I believe that Muslims want to believe that nothing in the Bible is the word of God so they can promote the Qu'ran as the only book. This little bit of self promotion will never work because it is God who raises up and God who sets down. Despite all its dings the Bible is still the Word of God.

 

[Popeyesays]

I see you have not read any books by those scholars who have examined the greek and latin text from which the bible was compiled and have concluded that yes it has been altered by a whole lot of unamed authors. get the books in the earlier posts you will have you evidence of alteration. It is clear and concise and cannot be refuted for it is a fact. I hate to say it and I am sorry it is that way but, it is what it is.

how would you know when the Injeel does not exist anymore because of alteration.

I agree and?

that is if is is the word of God mor you believe it is. Speaking about the bible. for the perception may override the rationality of the contents.

Mujahid,

I have the Gospels in my hand. So it is not gone. God would not suffer that book to exist if He did not want it to.

I read in Englih, have a tiny capacity for reading in Persian and Russian. I trust translations that are reputedly in good faith. I trust translations of the Qur'an, actually I trust n several at once since Ihave copies of Rodwell, Pickthall, yusuf Ali, and Palmer. I am capable of reading in parallel to cushion any translation shock.

The Word of God is not language dependent. It sings to the heart.

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

"They slew Him not but so it was made to appear to them"

- Surih 4:157

Something occurred that convinced them Jesus had been executed and that they thought the Christ had been crucified and that would be an end to it...

We know that Jesus title was Ruh'u'llah the Spirit of God. No one can "crucify" the Spirit of God. In a short time within about three days, the disciples became convinved that the Cause of God was not dead but greater than ever and they mostly accepted this and were martyred themselves later for this Cause.

Else where in Qur'an it mentions that we should not view martyrs as dead.

See

"And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah: 'They are dead'. Nay they are living, THOUGH YE PERCEIVE IT NOT."

- Surih 2:154

I believe the Gospel or teachings of Jesus are found in the New Testament but it is not necesarily accurate as a "history book".

We must realize is that people have perverted the true teachings of Jesus by doctrinal and dogmatic presumptions later...same is true in my view wqith Qur'an...people have misinterpreted God's Word.

- Art

 

[TashaN]

I have the Gospels in my hand. So it is not gone. God would not suffer that book to exist if He did not want it to.

What you have is the bible but not the Injil dear Scott.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If you can't undestand the English translation it is doubtful that the Arabic will improve your understanding but I don't believe understanding can be taught.

We went through this battle over words, meanings and language when you sided with Apple Pie in his assertion that the Quran showed that Jesus was the son of Allah. In fact it showed no such thing either in english or arabic as he assumed. He was given a challenge to confront each and every Classical Arabic verse in the Quran that said Allah has no son, no partner, no consort etc. and HE LEFT THIS FORUM to start the same old tired rhetoric at another forum. He didn't even take the challenge.

So I understand the english and the arabic very well. Most christians believe that Jesus died for man's sins so that man would have everlasting life, but as you have said..."He didn't die but left"....so if he didn't die but left then how did he die for man's sins?

No. the text does not say that God halted anything. However the Bible indicates that Jesus did not die but left and then the body died.

So either way you look at it we are correct in making the statement that he didn't die. Are you trying to get our understanding of what "not died" means to us?

So God can say in the Qu'ran that He was not slain nor crucified but of course it appeared to everyone that He was because that is what they saw. They could not see the spirit of God leave before death.

You have to show me how you arrive at this interpertation. In one verse of the bible it describes how Jesus gives up his spirit but after that a centurion is quoted as saying how he praised God after he saw what had happened.....

What did he see? Did he actually see Jesus give up his spirit. That can be interperted as he did...but that information is not explicitly mentioned.

Luke
23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;` and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.

23:47 And the centurion having seen what was done, did glorify God, saying, `Really this man was righteous;`

I'm quite sure, giving what we know of Roman soilders, they killed plenty of people back then so there would be nothing special about a man crying for his god to save him but when looking at his reponse to Jesus one has to wonder if he actually did see something like Jesus actually giving up his spirit (God raising him up). I'm not saying that's how it was because like I said there not enought there to state that as a fact but it is interesting.

So God did not stop the process of crucifixion and death, He simply did not participate in it.

Not sure what you mean here.

Although God did not experience the death of the body it died anyway. There was no way He could return to it until He had resurrected it.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean here. Jesus was not God......

I believe that Muslims want to believe that nothing in the Bible is the word of God so they can promote the Qu'ran as the only book.

This is another assumption. This is an inaccurate assesment of Islamic ideology. Do you actually talk to muslims to get their understanding? I'm not talking about the few that you converse with on this forum.

Muslims beleive that the scripturs have been altered. I gave this example of the different manuscripts that were used when the scriptures were compiled (bible). It is common knowledge that not all of the scriptures are in the bible. Some here have said that the KJV contained more books or pages and now it's different. The christian culture, not all, are filled with various pagan customs and rituals that have crept in over the years from various people across the globe (i.e. easter, christmas, valentines day, holloween,...etc)

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
John 1:18
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote o monogenhV uios o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Alexandrian
John 1:18
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote monogenhV qeos o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

This little bit of self promotion will never work

This is your biased opinion of muslims. Be fair......christians do it too. I've never seen a door to door muslim or a door to door Jew, but you will see christians knocking on your door stopping you on their bikes etc.

because it is God who raises up and God who sets down.

We get it. Jesus didn't die. We totally agree here. We have said from the start that he didn't die. So why are we still in debate if we are in agreement?

Despite all its dings the Bible is still the Word of God.

If you say so, even though it is incomplete (due to man not including all the scrptures, changing the words in the scriptures, adding words that weren't originally there). All that exist today are copies of copies of copies and a few of the manuscripts are different than the others. So what's wrong with scrutanizing the bible?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Mujahid,

I have the Gospels in my hand. So it is not gone. God would not suffer that book to exist if He did not want it to.

But what you have is different then what the original Christians had. The KJV is different then the original. I did not say it is not here I said it has been altered and the original version of it is gone. What you have in your hands is not the original documents given by the earliest of church fathers

I read in Englih, have a tiny capacity for reading in Persian and Russian. I trust translations that are reputedly in good faith.

I am not talking about translations from the greek and latin texts. I am talking about the alteration of the greek and latin texts before they are even changed. And the ability of whoever is translating to take and leave, and alter verses (Varying degrees of alteration) to make it fit their ideology.

I trust translations of the Qur'an, actually I trust n several at once since Ihave copies of Rodwell, Pickthall, yusuf Ali, and Palmer. I am capable of reading in parallel to cushion any translation shock.

The Word of God is not language dependent. It sings to the heart.

Regards,
Scott

The Word of God cannot ever be altered or changed, or abrogated by human hands. Which unfortunately Christian not muslim, Christian scholars have proven that this has taken place by numerous unknown scribes. I never said that it is language dependent our discussion has never been about language or translations. It is about the categorical alteration of texts which is supposed to be Gods Word. Am I as a muslim allowed to come along and change the Bahai scriptures. You know take out things and leave out certain things the Bahaullah or anyone he put in authority over the scripture.

I am quite sure you are already aware of this. have you read any of the books I listed above. You should invest the time and study in this area of Christology for it concerns the validity of them claiming that the bible is the inerrant word of God which cannot be changed and has no contradiction. when because of the constant changes and the manner in which the gospel was compiled it is quite apparent that all these things took place.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Gospel that we HAVE in our hands is the Gospel God wishes us to have in our hands. Who can flaunt the will of God? Certainly not I. Certainly not those who assembled the Bible. What we have is what God suffers us to have out of His will.

Are you as a Muslim, going to challenge the will of God?

The Qur'an wehave in our hands today is the Qur'an God wants us to have. Surely it is obvious that the earliest Qur'ans had disagreements in the text or there would have been no need for the redaction of the Qur'an under the early Caliphs.

Some might contend those differences are significant. I don't worry about it, because God's will cannot be thwarted.

Same for the Gospels. They are good enough for me, and any servant of God should accept them as good enough for him. To do otherwise is to be ungrateful to God for what we have, and to suggest God has done something imperfectly.

Regards,
Scott

 

[JayHawes]

The Gospel that we HAVE in our hands is the Gospel God wishes us to have in our hands. Who can flaunt the will of God? Certainly not I. Certainly not those who assembled the Bible. What we have is what God suffers us to have out of His will.

Are you as a Muslim, going to challenge the will of God?

The Qur'an wehave in our hands today is the Qur'an God wants us to have. Surely it is obvious that the earliest Qur'ans had disagreements in the text or there would have been no need for the redaction of the Qur'an under the early Caliphs.

Some might contend those differences are significant. I don't worry about it, because God's will cannot be thwarted.

Same for the Gospels. They are good enough for me, and any servant of God should accept them as good enough for him. To do otherwise is to be ungrateful to God for what we have, and to suggest God has done something imperfectly.

Regards,
Scott

Amen to the part about the Gospels!!!:yes:

They are accurate examples of wittness accounts of Jesus and his ministry.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

The Gospel that we HAVE in our hands is the Gospel God wishes us to have in our hands. Who can flaunt the will of God? Certainly not I. Certainly not those who assembled the Bible. What we have is what God suffers us to have out of His will.

are you saying God ordered these unknown men to change his word. Where is it stated that he authorized them to do it. Can you give me one letter from King James saying it is ok for the bishop of canteburry 200 years later to alter his authorized version. The AV Bible, King James Version, AV 1611

besides if the bible was the one Allah wanted us to have then he would not have sent the Quran which is from Allah and has not been changed. the bible would have been sufficient but sadly because of many things it is not.

Are you as a Muslim, going to challenge the will of God?

what do you mean exactly? If we are speaking of Quran no it has not and cannot be changed. If it is the bible you are speaking about I do not have to the Christians have already done that.

The bible clearly warns against the altering of text. what is to become of the people. and it is clear that they changed it.

I am not sure I follow you are saying that is God's will for man to change and alter the text. So why then did he send the Quran or your scripture if the bible is infallible. Why be bahai? Why not be Christian if you believe they are infallible. With no alteration.

The Qur'an wehave in our hands today is the Qur'an God wants us to have. Surely it is obvious that the earliest Qur'ans had disagreements in the text or there would have been no need for the redaction of the Qur'an under the early Caliphs.

That is not even close to true. You are saying there was disagreements in text. You are sadly mistaken. The Quran never changed. They did it to preserve the recitaion of the Quran to be recited in the dialect of the Messenger for their are many in Arabia, and because of it some people were reciting it wrong amongst the people. Abu bakr who first commisioned it knew it by heart, as did all the other Khalifs. What are you talking about in terms of disagreements who disagreed.

Some might contend those differences are significant. I don't worry about it, because God's will cannot be thwarted.

so is your contention that God wanted man to change his word and alter it. It is your contention that what Allah says about people changing the scripture is not an issue. even the bible itself warns against it. I just do not get it. God sends a word to man, man changes it over and over and over again. to the point where the original words of God or His Messiah are lost, and all you have is what people think should have been said. They changed God's word, yet the book warns against it. And you see no problem with that please explain.

I mean the book says not to do it. And it has been PROVEN, a FACT, something that cannot be argued because of what the greek texts we have that they have changed it. It is truly amazing how people belief in something claiming it is from god, when it is clear that man has altered and changed it from the original.

do they allow this in your religion also. Where the Bahai scripture that was given to the man who brought you your belief.

Same for the Gospels. They are good enough for me, and any servant of God should accept them as good enough for him. To do otherwise is to be ungrateful to God for what we have, and to suggest God has done something imperfectly.

Regards,
Scott

so why are you bahai then and not christian if they are good enough for you. so if God says in the scriptures to not alter the text of God, and people do it anyways who is being ungrateful to God. If God told you to not do something and it was done then honestly Scott who is wrong.

I never said God did anything imperfectly, he left the scriptures with the scribes, and they took something from God which was perfect and changed it making it man made now and inherently will have many flaws. if God gave you something and you changed it, is it still what God gave you.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Amen to the part about the Gospels!!!:yes:

They are accurate examples of wittness accounts of Jesus and his ministry.

Even though the witness themselves do not agree on the full account.

So what were Jesus last words according to the Gospels. Why do they all say something different where they not all accurate witnessess as you say.

why are their different accounts as to who was at Jesus suppossed tomb. if they all were witness should they not all have the same names of everyone present.

Will this testimony be accepted in a court of law today. if me, you and scott and lets say the truth all gave different accounts of the same event. Who's testimony is correct for they all cannot be correct. if I asked you who won the NBA championship series and we all gave four different teams. either all 4 will be wrong or at least 3. So why cannot the same be said for the bible in terms of valid testimony.

 

[Popeyesays]

"so why are you bahai then and not christian if they are good enough for you. so if God says in the scriptures to not alter the text of God, and people do it anyways who is being ungrateful to God. If God told you to not do something and it was done then honestly Scott who is wrong.

I never said God did anything imperfectly, he left the scriptures with the scribes, and they took something from God which was perfect and changed it making it man made now and inherently will have many flaws. if God gave you something and you changed it, is it still what God gave you."

I believe the only way to be a fulfilled Christian or Muslim today is to be a Baha`i. Baha`u'llah speaks for this day and age, just as Muhammad did in His time and Jesus in His.

To me, one cannot fully follow Muhammud or Christ today if one is not Baha`i. I'm not militant about that, and I recognize that God can be approached as a Christian or a Muslim, but if you want the highway rather than the back road,be a Baha`i.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

"so why are you bahai then and not christian if they are good enough for you. so if God says in the scriptures to not alter the text of God, and people do it anyways who is being ungrateful to God. If God told you to not do something and it was done then honestly Scott who is wrong.

I never said God did anything imperfectly, he left the scriptures with the scribes, and they took something from God which was perfect and changed it making it man made now and inherently will have many flaws. if God gave you something and you changed it, is it still what God gave you."

these are all my statements.
You have not answered any of my questions If God gave you something told you not to change it and you did it anyway who is being ungrateful.

Is it allowed to alter the scripture of Bahaullah, And how is something from god if you changed it. and is the changing or altering of the scriptures by countless unknown scribes, and church fathers. do you not feel this is significant.

I believe the only way to be a fulfilled Christian or Muslim today is to be a Baha`i. Baha`u'llah speaks for this day and age, just as Muhammad did in His time and Jesus in His.
To me, one cannot fully follow Muhammud or Christ today if one is not Baha`i. I'm not militant about that, and I recognize that God can be approached as a Christian or a Muslim, but if you want the highway rather than the back road,be a Baha`i.

Regards,
Scott

this has absolutely nothing to do with anything we are discussing and is really irrelavant. You are entitled to your belief but it has nothing to do with what we are discussing. We are discussing the validity and acceptance of biblical scripture being the word of God or what God intented for us to have even though their is overwhelming evidence and irrefuteable proof that they changed it. you accept the bible as a word of God yet you follow Bahai. They changed Allahs word when Allah warned them against it in their own scripture, yet you still feel it is valid and it is Gods will for Him to allow men to alter His Messages to mankind and fill it with their own ideas and commands, even though Allah specifically told man to not do it in both the Quran and the bible.

God said to not do it and they did it and it is your contention that I am the one who is ungrateful when we as muslims have not changed anything Allah has given us, and has warned us also against altering and innovation within the religion, and what it leads to. You claim it does not matter about the changes and this is what Allah wanted yet you feel it is God's word and you follow something other then the Bibles belief. So why have the Bahai's then if the bible is sufficient with all its alterations, misinterprolations, additions, deletions to verses etc etc.

Well if it is sufficient for then then that is OK for you. Allah will judge us on the matter and on the Day of Judgment all matters concerning these issues will b.e brought to light and Allah will punish those who reject His verses of the Quran and the commands of His final prophet and messeger to mankind, Muhammed peace be upon him.

 

[Popeyesays]

There is irrefutable proof that the Qur'an changed between the timeof Muhammad's death and the redaction.

The purpose of the redaction was to create ONE Qur'an for all Islam.

The creation of the bible created ONE sacred text for all of Christendom.

I fail to see the difference.

Regards,
Scott

 

[JayHawes]

Even though the witness themselves do not agree on the full account.

So what were Jesus last words according to the Gospels. Why do they all say something different where they not all accurate witnessess as you say.

why are their different accounts as to who was at Jesus suppossed tomb. if they all were witness should they not all have the same names of everyone present.

Will this testimony be accepted in a court of law today. if me, you and scott and lets say the truth all gave different accounts of the same event. Who's testimony is correct for they all cannot be correct. if I asked you who won the NBA championship series and we all gave four different teams. either all 4 will be wrong or at least 3. So why cannot the same be said for the bible in terms of valid testimony.

1) Only one Gospel writer, John was present at the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Each writer had a different purpose for writing, each book was for a different people, and each book had different sources. Matthew Mark and Luke draw a huge majority from the Apotles and eye wittnesses, only John gives a 1st Person point of view. So why do his last words change? They dont, all the authors did not write down everything Jesus said, however they wrote down what people remembered.

2) If i ask you who visited your house today you may say, your friend Jerry becuase he came over for something very important. If i ask your brother who visited your house, (on that day), one year fomr now, he may say Johnathan. If i ask you again 20 years from know who visited you house, you may say Jerry and Johnatan. My point is thus, it matters not "who" one says visited the tomb, but that they actually visited it. Certain wittnesses only heard from certain women, so when they confessed to Mark and Luke, they only told of whom they heard, they may have left out one woman or two. However Mary is a reoccuring figure, we can be sure that Mary, and the other women went ot the tomb.

3) Your scenario is not accurate. If we all give a different account of the same event, we can still all agree. For although one may be present for some things that happen another may not be present. However, Every single account in the bible ends up in the same spot, that Jesus rose from the dead ( he won the NBA Championship). They don't disagree on "who won the NBA Championship."