Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[MBones]

Of course not Scott, that is not what i said. What I said was the earth is over 6 billion years old. Mankind has only been around for about 3 millions years acording to the lucy finding. That makes the whole statement of the world being 5,000 years old, according to the bible, 5,000 is an estimation by the way, ridiculous. My question for you is did dinosaurs and man walk the earth at the same time? Do you believe that they did?

 

[MBones]

I totally agree with your findings on the problems with the bible, but I also know the findings with the Quran, also are unmerited. That is the total problem with the religions of this world. No one knows what is right, or who to believe. Then why do we all walk along like lost sheep??/ Wanting to believe any stuff that is given to us. I will give you another explanation here. Both of your books is wrong.. .Period. They were written by people of the era... And translated from older books to read into this era. But the fact is all of them are fiction. Books to keep a society in place, most like how our law books are written today. There is no question that the laws today are based on the biblical books of yesterday. the ten commandments, yes they are pretty cool and something to live by. We then bring them into law to control the people of the world. But look at the world today, the problems we are facing and neither of the books you believe in will help us, only destroy us. We are all one people, Homo erectus, that is it. There is no room for silly fighting, we are all one people no matter what the origion, color of skin, religion, sexual preference, height, weight, man, woman, animal, etc.. We are all one, and until we get along as one, the earth is doomed. Global warming, just a myth. Or is it? We created it. And we will pay the price for it. The gluttons of this world keep getting fatter while the meek do not inherit the earth, they inherit disease, poverty, and famine. When are we going to wake up?

 

[Popeyesays]

Of course not Scott, that is not what i said. What I said was the earth is over 6 billion years old. Mankind has only been around for about 3 millions years acording to the lucy finding. That makes the whole statement of the world being 5,000 years old, according to the bible, 5,000 is an estimation by the way, ridiculous. My question for you is did dinosaurs and man walk the earth at the same time? Do you believe that they did?

Lucy is Homo habilis, not Homo sapiens. We kn9w that Homo sapiens neanderthalensis buried people with flowers, but we have no such knowledge of Homo habilis. Lucy may not have been 'human'--we don't know.

As to your basic argument that the Quran and the Gospel are fiction: Well, you simply say believe me because I say so.

That's the same argument you find amusing when it is applied to the opposite side of the question.

Me? I find irony amusing, and you appealing to your own authority to make me disbelieve my own conviction is both ironic and very amusing.

Regards,
Scott

 

[MBones]

Mr. Popeye,
You did not answer my first question. Do you believe Dinosaurs and man walked the earth at the same time? That's it. Very simple, disregard all of the previous jests i have applied.

 

[Popeyesays]

No, dinosaurs and man do not appear to have walked the earth together.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Mr. Popeye,
You did not answer my first question. Do you believe Dinosaurs and man walked the earth at the same time? That's it. Very simple, disregard all of the previous jests i have applied.

The biggest question is........

What does any of this have to do with the supposed death of Jesus in regards to the Quran???????

Can we get back on task or is this thread over?

 

[Booko]

I totally agree with your findings on the problems with the bible, but I also know the findings with the Quran, also are unmerited. That is the total problem with the religions of this world. No one knows what is right, or who to believe. Then why do we all walk along like lost sheep??/ Wanting to believe any stuff that is given to us. I will give you another explanation here. Both of your books is wrong.. .Period. They were written by people of the era... And translated from older books to read into this era. But the fact is all of them are fiction. Books to keep a society in place, most like how our law books are written today. There is no question that the laws today are based on the biblical books of yesterday. the ten commandments, yes they are pretty cool and something to live by. We then bring them into law to control the people of the world. But look at the world today, the problems we are facing and neither of the books you believe in will help us, only destroy us.

This is kinda ironic, MBones, in that the books the Scott and I turn to tell us exactly this:

We are all one people, Homo erectus, that is it. There is no room for silly fighting, we are all one people no matter what the origion, color of skin, religion, sexual preference, height, weight, man, woman, animal, etc.. We are all one, and until we get along as one, the earth is doomed. Global warming, just a myth. Or is it? We created it. And we will pay the price for it. The gluttons of this world keep getting fatter while the meek do not inherit the earth, they inherit disease, poverty, and famine. When are we going to wake up?

You probably don't realize that you are suggesting we give up our religious texts so that we can believe...what our texts actually say. :areyoucra

"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah

Hm...we appear to be straying far off topic, though. If you'd like to discuss whether anyone's religious texts support the idea of the oneness of humanity, not to mention some of things things that we need to wake up about, it would make a good new thread, though.

As for the topic, Did Jesus die on the cross? The flesh did, yes. The spirit -- nope. It's unfortunate that so many Muslims have decided to get overly literal in understanding what Muhammad was saying, but they have, and it doesn't help to heal any rifts between them and Christians to focus on the differences, esp. when there are so many similarities. Oh well.

 

[Popeyesays]

We, as a species, are not Homo erectus. We are Homo sapiens sapiens. Homo erectus was first known as Java Man and is distinctly another species than us.

Sorry for the off-topic; but when one posts with such obvious error in thought there are probably other errors implied and explicit.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Phil Lawton]

We, as a species, are not Homo erectus. We are Homo sapiens sapiens. Homo erectus was first known as Java Man and is distinctly another species than us.

Sorry for the off-topic; but when one posts with such obvious error in thought there are probably other errors implied and explicit.

Regards,
Scott

Scott

I do believe that MBones probably is Homo Erectus.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Scott

I do believe that MBones probably is Homo Erectus.

Alright.......Let's keep it clean so that we may exchange free ideas....and not get in any trouble with the MODS (gods)......


Here's a question to anyone...so that we may stay on topic...sorta...

If the body of Jesus "died".....and the spirit remained intact then would that not denote reincarnation?

If he gave up his spirit;

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the Spirit.

And he had not ascended;

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

How did the body die? At this point in the statement, the ascention appears to not have happened. Would this not mean he was still alive after the supposed crucifiction?

Can we try to answer this with some scripture (Matt, Mark, Luke or John)?

 

[Popeyesays]

In answer:
"Therefore we must give praise unto God, for it is the light of His bounty which has shone upon us through His love which is everlasting. His divine Manifestations have offered their lives through love for us. Consider then what the love of God means. Were it not for the love of God all the spirits would be inanimate. The meaning of this is not physical death; nay, rather, it is that condition concerning which His Holiness Christ declared, "Let the dead bury their dead, for that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." Were it not for the love of God the hearts would not be illumined. Were it not for the love of God the pathway of the Kingdom would not be opened. Were it not for the love of God the holy books would not have been revealed. Were it not for the love of God the divine prophets would not have been sent to the world. The foundation of all these bestowals is the love of God. Therefore in the human world there is no greater power than the love of God. It is the love of God which has brought us together here tonight. It is the love of God which is affiliating the East and the West. It is the love of God which has resuscitated the world. Now we must offer thanks to God that such a great bestowal and effulgence has been revealed to us.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 90)

"After the death of Christ the disciples were troubled, and their ideas and thoughts were discordant and contradictory; later they became firm and united, and at the feast of Pentecost they gathered together and detached themselves from the things of this world. Disregarding themselves, they renounced their comfort and worldly happiness, sacrificing their body and soul to the Beloved, abandoning their houses, and becoming wanderers and homeless, even forgetting their own existence. Then they received the help of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit became manifested; the spirituality of Christ triumphed, and the love of God reigned. They were given help at that time and dispersed in different directions, teaching the Cause of God, and giving forth proofs and evidences.
So the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles means their attraction by the Christ Spirit, whereby they acquired stability and firmness. Through the spirit of the love of God they gained a new life, and they saw Christ 107 living, helping and protecting them. They were like drops, and they became seas; they were like feeble insects, and they became majestic eagles; they were weak and became powerful. They were like mirrors facing the sun; verily, some of the light became manifest in them."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 106)

Regards,
Scott

 

[MBones]

Come on Phil, trying to put me down by calling me Homo Erectus, is an expected come back from your part. Your ignorance of accepting that we came from that delineation of species is more incredulous. OK you are right we are getting off of the topic.. Did Jesus die, yes of course he did, according to the texts we have.

 

[Muffled]

This isn't 'reincarnation' in the sense people understand the term. Muhammad seems to lay the claim to be "The Comforter". The bab lays the claim to be the Imam Mahdi awaited by the followers of Muhammad. baha`u'llah claims to be He Whom God Will Make Manifest proclaimed by the Bab--also the Shah Bahram, the Fifth Buddha, the return of Christ in The Glory of the Father.

To ponder:

1) All the Great Prophets are the Self-Same Spirit
2) All the Prophets are individual men born in different times and cultures.
3) All are the promised Manifestations of the preceding Dispensantion.

All at the same time.

"Furthermore, it is evident to thee that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. [1 Qur'án 43:22.]
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 152)

Regards,
Scott

This sounds like another Muslim tale. If Mohammed were to make such a claim it would be a false claim and he would be a false prophet. The "Comforter," one translation of Paraclete, has already come upon the church gathered at Pentecost.

Have you ever noticed that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are like John the Baptist and Jesus in relation to each other. If the devil ever wanted to present a false religion, it would be a flagrant copy of what God has done. Also the purpose of the Antichrist was to establish a one world religion. Please understand that these are just observations. The baha'u'llah talks and lived as though he were in the light but Christians know that Satan is capable of transforming himself into an angel of light.

If Baha'u'llah made this claim he is a false prophet.

This is tantamount to saying that all the prophets are incarnations of God. I have seen no evidence to support this. My understanding is that prophets have either heard God speak to them or have their information from angels.

I don't see this as being true. Certainly there are those who claim antecedents but I do not believe all fit into that category.

"regarded" is not the same thing as identity. What this is saying is that the origen of all prophecy is God who is one person.

 

[Phil Lawton]

Come on Phil, trying to put me down by calling me Homo Erectus, is an expected come back from your part.

'Twas a joke...you remember humour, yes?

Your ignorance of accepting that we came from that delineation of species is more incredulous.

You mean 'incredible', not 'incredulous'...and when did I show you evidence of any "ignorance of accepting that we came from that delineation of species"? Really, Drex, your memory is failing you these days.

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear Muffled,

God does not incarnate Himself. You cannot empty the ocean by filling a teacup with salt water.

All of Creation is not a big enough teacup to contain God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Xbones]

Sorry old chap its humor not humour. Yes I mean unbelievable (incredulous).

 

[Phil Lawton]

Sorry old chap its humor not humour. Yes I mean unbelievable (incredulous).

The proper spelling is "humour" - exactly how the language was mangled by the colonies is beside the point.

And "incredulous" means "unbelieving"..."incredible" is a word for "unbelievable".

Check your dickshunhairy.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Did Jesus die, yes of course he did, according to the texts we have.

Of Mathew, Mark, Luke or John...what information is given that he "Died"???

He told the woman he had not ascended....

 

[lew0049]

Dear Muffled,

God does not incarnate Himself. You cannot empty the ocean by filling a teacup with salt water.

All of Creation is not a big enough teacup to contain God.

Regards,
Scott

Scott, the death of Jesus is meaningless if Jesus is not God. Only the sacrifice of someone who is perfect can correctly justify our sins being forgiven - and the only One that is perfect is God.

And all that your analogy is implying is that you are limiting the power of God.

 

[Popeyesays]

Scott, the death of Jesus is meaningless if Jesus is not God. Only the sacrifice of someone who is perfect can correctly justify our sins being forgiven - and the only One that is perfect is God.

And all that your analogy is implying is that you are limiting the power of God.

If God cannot die then what significance is the death of Jesus as God?

None whatsoever.

If it was not aman upon the cross, there was no purpose.

man is part of Creation and God is what Created. We are not the same nor can we ever be.

Regards,
Scott