Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Muffled]

Sorry, Muffled, but God never steps into or out of Creation. God is not part of Creation--Creation is part of God. That's not an absolute truth but a useful metaphor.

Not only does God cause Creation, but the Will of God maintains Creation from moment to moment.

\Jesus incarnated in perfect reflection of the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit. We stand in awe of that. But Jesus never embodied God, nor did Jesus ever in His Own words say that He did.

If God had been nailed to the cross, then God would have ceased being God because He was at that moment contained in Creation and no longer the infinite being.

God is eternal--no beginning, no end.

Regards,
Scott

I take it the that you don't believe the Bible is the word of God because the Bible contradicts your statement.

This is Universalism. The apostle Paul rejected the concept of Universalism. Mostly this belief comes from the Hindu faith.

Not only doesn't your conclusion follow from the premise but you are in error thinking that God would be contained in the body of Jesus. He was in the body of Jesus and everywhere else and concurrently one. That is how Jesus can say I and my Father are one.

That is true. Incorporation of any spirit does not diminish the etrnality of the spirit. God sojourned in a body temporaneously as do we until He was resurrected into an eternal body (as will we) which is still in existence.

 

[Popeyesays]

I take it the that you don't believe the Bible is the word of God because the Bible contradicts your statement.

This is Universalism. The apostle Paul rejected the concept of Universalism. Mostly this belief comes from the Hindu faith.

Not only doesn't your conclusion follow from the premise but you are in error thinking that God would be contained in the body of Jesus. He was in the body of Jesus and everywhere else and concurrently one. That is how Jesus can say I and my Father are one.

That is true. Incorporation of any spirit does not diminish the etrnality of the spirit. God sojourned in a body temporaneously as do we until He was resurrected into an eternal body (as will we) which is still in existence.

Frankly, Paul is a commentator, not a Prophet. his word is not infallible.

Jesus denied being divine, over and over. Paul tells us He was Divine in the flesh? Who should I believe? Hmmmm? I'll believe Jesus.

It is not rational thinking to assume that God can become flesh or would do so.

Therefore I refrain from superstition and rely on rational logic.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Frankly, Paul is a commentator, not a Prophet. his word is not infallible.

Jesus denied being divine, over and over. Paul tells us He was Divine in the flesh? Who should I believe? Hmmmm? I'll believe Jesus.

It is not rational thinking to assume that God can become flesh or would do so.

Therefore I refrain from superstition and rely on rational logic.

Regards,
Scott

The Christian position is that the Paraclete is God speaking in us and the Biblical evidence is that Paul had the Paraclete. I have said this before. When I speak you are hearing God speak because the Paraclete is in me speaking.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Christian position is that the Paraclete is God speaking in us and the Biblical evidence is that Paul had the Paraclete. I have said this before. When I speak you are hearing God speak because the Paraclete is in me speaking.

And I believe the "Paraclete" would have to be a man with lips and speech to fulfill what Jesus promised.

Paul was a commentator. Paul's opinion may offer sound advice but it is not infallible.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Anastasios]

If we try to accept this alternative transalation, things become a bit more clear:

Quran 4.157: And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
​

Jesus was cricified, but he didn't die on the cross. People thought he was dead, while in fact he was just in a swoon. Remember, a soldier sticked his spear his side and liquid gushed from his body, which means a living body rather than a dead body. At the same time there was an earthquake and people couldn't really what happened in fact to Jesus. After this earthquake, he was taken from cross, he was still in swoon. He was taken to the cave, which was already prepared by Joseph of Arimathea, a secret follower of Jesus. In this cave he was cured through some oinment,that was brought by Nicodemus just before the crucifixion day. One or more followers of Jesus was already in the cave for this purpose. After three days, he was finally able to walk and left the cave to see other uninformed apostles, who were schocked when they saw that Jesus was still living, since they all thought that he was dead on the cross. This incident was understood by many as a miracle. In fact there are many other evidences in bible that support this idea.

So, while there is a rational explanation, which conciliates the books, why should people think more than that. Mabe just belief?

regards...

 

[Muffled]

If we try to accept this alternative transalation, things become a bit more clear:

Quran 4.157: And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.​

Jesus was cricified, but he didn't die on the cross. People thought he was dead, while in fact he was just in a swoon. Remember, a soldier sticked his spear his side and liquid gushed from his body, which means a living body rather than a dead body. At the same time there was an earthquake and people couldn't really what happened in fact to Jesus. After this earthquake, he was taken from cross, he was still in swoon. He was taken to the cave, which was already prepared by Joseph of Arimathea, a secret follower of Jesus. In this cave he was cured through some oinment,that was brought by Nicodemus just before the crucifixion day. One or more followers of Jesus was already in the cave for this purpose. After three days, he was finally able to walk and left the cave to see other uninformed apostles, who were schocked when they saw that Jesus was still living, since they all thought that he was dead on the cross. This incident was understood by many as a miracle. In fact there are many other evidences in bible that support this idea.

So, while there is a rational explanation, which conciliates the books, why should people think more than that. Mabe just belief?

regards...

The swoon theory is a fairy tale. There is nothing in the record to support it.
I suppose you think that Lazarus, four days in the grave was in a swoon too? I don't know how long it takes for a body to become stiff but if the death and sword wound came close enough together there would be fluids. What do you think the sword thrust was for, fun? The soldier wanted to make sure that Jesus was dead by piercing His heart. How does one recover from a stabwound to the heart?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Frankly, Paul is a commentator, not a Prophet. his word is not infallible.

Jesus denied being divine, over and over. Paul tells us He was Divine in the flesh? Who should I believe? Hmmmm? I'll believe Jesus.

It is not rational thinking to assume that God can become flesh or would do so.

Therefore I refrain from superstition and rely on rational logic.

Regards,
Scott

WOOOOO HOOOOO......!!!!!!!

GO Scott.....

 

[Anastasios]

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[Anastasios]

The swoon theory is a fairy tale. There is nothing in the record to support it.
I suppose you think that Lazarus, four days in the grave was in a swoon too? I don't know how long it takes for a body to become stiff but if the death and sword wound came close enough together there would be fluids. What do you think the sword thrust was for, fun? The soldier wanted to make sure that Jesus was dead by piercing His heart. How does one recover from a stabwound to the heart?

I don't believe any theory that says a body raised from dead. So, Lazarus story should be exaggerated "miracle", which might have based and developed on an incident. I don't belive in such miracles, i believe they can mostly be understood metaphorically. Just think, if god is just why didn't he give the chance to ahow every one of us those miracles? If some one who sees that Jesus raised a dead, would certainly believe becasue he was given this immunity of believing Jesus without comprehending his teachings and without learning anything about the God. On the hand, interestingly enough he couldn't have more than a dozen of apostles, in spite of his numerous miracles. Even, he was alone when he was "dead", there is no eye witness.
But I don't have this chance of seeing miracle. Maybe I would ask for the cahance to believe, and i wouldn't need to read many books, and loose my time for understanding it. If such miracles would be way of living God, he should have offered that to us too. I don't think that God would choose such a mentally fruitless way of telling about himself. That is why Quran is miracle for us, it is always under our hands and every muslim was given the chance of seeing it originally. A rational and non-dogmatic person wouldn't need to see such miracles, and God wouldn't make himself less by such miracles, but by logos which makes human understand him, then love him truely, honestly and conscious. I think this way suits God, who works through logos and affection, more than anything else.

Jesus was pierced from his right side, not from heart. It was always known like that, see the paintings and statue below. And i think it is written only by John(? please correct if i am wrong).

and believe swoon theory is certainly most rational explanation, which removes many problematic points, while raising from dead can be a fairy tale and makes the situation more complicated and conjectural and creates many doubts, as it is mentioned in the Quran.

I know, many muslim friends will not agree with me, too. But i am always on the side of rationalism and based on scriptures and traditions.

 

[maro]

Anastasios , i can see that you are a muslim , but forgive me ,what you are saying is not islamic at all ,
it sounds more like the Bahai beliefs :sarcastic


Muslims belive that jesus was not creucified at all
and that raising the dead was one of his miracles

Are you a Bahai or Muslim ?!!!!

and by the way , this is not an accurate translation

but he was made to appear to them like one crucified;

the translation says : " it was made to appear to them "

 

[maro]

I know, many muslim friends will not agree with me, too

Muslim friends ?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm not sure who here knows anything about dead bodies, but if a dead body is in a certain position the blood does not flow...correct?

Doesn't it pool?

Jesus being "tied" to a tree in an upright position and being dead for a certain amount of time... the blood would not have flowed from his side if he was dead...correct?

Wouldn't the running blood denote life??

 

[Anastasios]

Anastasios , i can see that you are a muslim , but forgive me ,what you are saying is not islamic at all ,
it sounds more like the Bahai beliefs :sarcastic


Muslims belive that jesus was not creucified at all
and that raising the dead was one of his miracles

Are you a Bahai or Muslim ?!!!!

:yes: I am muslim and i can see no problem in believing in what i said

I'm not sure who here knows anything about dead bodies, but if a dead body is in a certain position the blood does not flow...correct?

Doesn't it pool?

Jesus being "tied" to a tree in an upright position and being dead for a certain amount of time... the blood would not have flowed from his side if he was dead...correct?

Wouldn't the running blood denote life??

please take a look at: http://www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html

regards

 

[Muffled]

And I believe the "Paraclete" would have to be a man with lips and speech to fulfill what Jesus promised.

Paul was a commentator. Paul's opinion may offer sound advice but it is not infallible.

Regards,
Scott

There is no Biblical evidence for this. There is a verse where Jesus breathes on His disciples and says receive the Paraclete. Also Jesus says the Paraclete will come upon them. At Pentecost the Paraclete did come upon them and they spoke in tongues as a result.

As long as Paul speaks with the Paraclete uttering the words, the word is infallible. It is near impossible for us to judge whether Paul is speaking with the Paraclete or from his own mind. God must be the judge of that.

 

[TashaN]

:yes: I am muslim and i can see no problem in believing in what i said

Well, the painting you posted shows that he was crucified. Do you believe so, or you think that was someone else in there, not Jesus?!

please take a look at: http://www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html

So, are you Ahmadiyya muslim?

 

[Anastasios]

I am not an ahmadi either, but i see a rationality in what they claim.

I belive that Jesus was put on the cross, i just say he was not dead when he was taken from cross.

 

[TashaN]

I am not an ahmadi either, but i see a rationality in what they claim.

I belive that Jesus was crucfied, i just say he was not dead when he was taken from cross.

I see, what about the verse in the Quran which states clearly that Isa "Jesus" wasn't killed nor crucified?

 

[Anastasios]

I see, what about the verse in the Quran which states clearly that Isa "Jesus" wasn't killed nor crucified?

A crucifixion includes hanging on a cross, letting the body stay there until death (usually not less than 24 hours, and Jesus was at the age 33 when his body ahould be strong enough) thorugh dehydration, hunger, loosing the vitality, psychologically pain as well as physically etc...

Jesus was taken from cross only after 3 or 4 hours later, also everybody who is watching the scene run away because of earthquake, noone was really sure he was dead (that is what quran says as a "conjecture"). He was rapidly moved from there and put in the cave. So I believe, crucifixion was failed by the will of God, because the procedure was not completed. And in fact, he was not killed through crucifixion. So, that is why "Isa "Jesus" wasn't killed nor crucified"

 

[TashaN]

A crucifixion includes hanging on a cross, letting the body stay there until death (usually not less than 24 hours, and Jesus was at the age 33 when his body ahould be strong enough) thorugh dehydration, hunger, loosing the vitality, psychologically pain as well as physically etc...

Jesus was taken from cross only after 3 or 4 hours later, also everybody who is watching the scene run away because of earthquake, noone was really sure he was dead (that is what quran says as a "conjecture"). He was rapidly moved from there and put in the cave. So I believe, crucifixion was failed by the will of God, because the procedure was not completed. And in fact, he was not killed through crucifixion. So, that is why "Isa "Jesus" wasn't killed nor crucified"

Is this based only on what the Quran taught or also based on your understanding from the bible?

 

[Anastasios]

I am using both Quran and Bible, I believe It is a quite strong idea that may reconcile Quran and Bible on a rational base about the issue of crucifixon.