Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I am not an ahmadi either, but i see a rationality in what they claim.

I belive that Jesus was crucfied, i just say he was not dead when he was taken from cross.

based on what evidence? where is the evidence for this from the sources of islam

 

[Popeyesays]

Crucify has a particular meaning, and it is NOT to hang a person from a cross. It is to PUT TO DEATH someone on the cross.

Main Entry: cru·ci·fy
Pronunciation: 'krü-s&-"fI
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -fied; -fy·ing
Etymology: Middle English crucifien, from Anglo-French crucifier, from Late Latin crucifigere
1 : to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross

So if Jesus came down alive, or the Spirit rose to heaven before the death of the flesh, then he was NOT crucified at all.

If you MUST argue over something, make it something substantial. And for heaven's sake make some effort to define the word "crucify".

No death, makes it torture, but not crucifixion.

Regards,
Scott

 

[maro]

A crucifixion includes hanging on a cross, letting the body stay there until death (usually not less than 24 hours)

to put to death by nailing or binding the wrists or hands and feet to a cross

So if Jesus came down alive, or the Spirit rose to heaven before the death of the flesh, then he was NOT crucified at all.

If you MUST argue over something, make it something substantial. And for heaven's sake make some effort to define the word "crucify".

No death, makes it torture, but not crucifixion.

wrong, to crucify somone is to put him on the "cross"

if i put someone on the cross (even for half an hour) , i did crucify him

wether he died on the cross or not , this is another story

people used to crucify "others" untill they die , but if they didn't die , and were released before "death" , this doesn't make them " not crucified "

so when the quran tells us ( NOR DID THEY CRUCIFY HIM ) , it means that he wasn't tied to the cross at all

The words are clear to me , why twisting them ?

 

[Anastasios]

based on what evidence? where is the evidence for this from the sources of islam

We are trying to find out what exactly happened to Jesus, and trying to understand what exactly this conjecture occured about him. Quranic information about Jesus' crucifixion is not explaining every detail, in fact Quran doesn't say many things about Jesus's life.
About crucifixion, it just simply says the situation was not like people knew until the quranic revelation saying about ambiquity of the situation, came to Muhammad (pbuh). If someone else would have been put instead of him, Quran would have no reason not to mention this person, to give an end to all those debates and conjectures.

Beside, We see in quran 3.56:

Remember the time when Allah said, 'O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.​

seems to me as a message that Jesus will be saved from such a death, but he will be given natural honourable death. It probably points that Jesus continued his life after survival from crucifixion, until a natural death came upon him.

According to a Quran commentary I have "Ma-Şalabu-hu means, they did not cause his death on the cross. Şalab being a well known of killing. They say Şalaba al-Lişşa, i.e., he put the thief to death by putting him on the cross. The verse does not deny the fact of Jesus's being nailed to the cross but denies his having died on it"

 

[Popeyesays]

Maro,

Do you know HOW to use a dictionary?

Here are some more--not ONE definition I have found fails to use the operative word (KILL) or (EXECUTE).



Crucify (Random House Dictionary):
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
cru·ci·fy

https://secure.reference.com/premiu...7;3A//dictionary.reference.com/browse/crucify /ˈkru

səˌfaɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kroo-suh-fahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -fied, -fy·ing. 1.to put to death by nailing or binding the hands and feet to a cross. 2.to treat with gross injustice; persecute; torment; torture. 3.to subdue (passion, sin, etc.).
[Origin: ME crucifien < AF, OF crucifier < L crucif&#299;gere, equiv. to L cruci- (s. of crux) cross + f&#299;gere to fix, bind fast

]

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

--------------------------------
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
crucify
c.1300, from O.Fr. crucifer, from V.L. *crucificare, from L.L. crucifigere "to fasten to a cross," from cruci, dat. of L. crux "cross" + figere "fasten" (see fix). An ancient mode of capital punishment considered especially ignominious by the Romans.

--------------------------------------------------
WordNet - Cite This Source crucify
verb1. kill by nailing onto a cross; "Jesus Christ was crucified" 2. treat cruelly; "The children tormented the stuttering teacher" [syn: torment] 3. hold within limits and control; "subdue one's appetites"; "mortify the flesh" [syn: mortify]

4. criticize harshly or violently; "The press savaged the new President"; "The critics crucified the author for plagiarizing a famous passage" [syn: savage]




--------------------------------------
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source
crucify [&#712;kru&#720;sifai] verb

to put to death by fixing the hands and feet to a cross
Example: Christ was crucified.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

We are trying to find out what exactly happened to Jesus, and trying to understand what exactly this conjecture occured about him. Quranic information about Jesus' crucifixion is not explaining every detail, in fact Quran doesn't say many things about Jesus's life.
About crucifixion, it just simply says the situation was not like people knew until the quranic revelation saying about ambiquity of the situation, came to Muhammad (pbuh). If someone else would have been put instead of him, Quran would have no reason not to mention this person, to give an end to all those debates and conjectures.

Beside, We see in quran 3.56:

Remember the time when Allah said, 'O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.​

seems to me as a message that Jesus will be saved from such a death, but he will be given natural honourable death. It probably points that Jesus continued his life after survival from crucifixion, until a natural death came upon him.

Where is your tafsir or evidence. the verse sends you a message? Where is your statements of the Messenger or the Quran to back up the message the ayats is giving and please give it in relation to the verses in Surah Nissa Verse 157.

And because of their saying in boast that "We killed Issa (Jesus) son of Maryam, The Messenger of Allah, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjectture to follow, for of a suretly they killed him not.

According to a Quran commentary I have "Ma-&#350;alabu-hu means, they did not cause his death on the cross. &#350;alab being a well known of killing. They say &#350;alaba al-Li&#351;&#351;a, i.e., he put the thief to death by putting him on the cross. The verse does not deny the fact of Jesus's being nailed to the cross but denies his having died on it"

Wow, and what about the above verse and give me the tafsir for the verse above. the one you claim says that he was crucified. for that is what I asked you for originally was an evidence he was crucified.

You said and i believe

Originally Posted by Anastasios
I am not an ahmadi either, but i see a rationality in what they claim.

I belive that Jesus was crucfied, i just say he was not dead when he was taken from cross

So I asked you for an evidence from the Islamic sources of Islam the Quran and Sunnah. I gave you a clear verse from the Quran stating he was not crucified Surah Nissa 157, you gave me a message or personal interpretation you took from a specific verse. No tafsir, no seerah evidence of when the verse was revealed and what was going on at the time or the context. Just your opinion has been giving and as you know the only opinions that are accepted as authorities in our religion is Allah and His Messenger and those they put in authority over us like the righteous scholars of the first 3 generations only.

So again i am asking you to give me an evidence for your claims.

 

[maro]

Maro,

Do you know HOW to use a dictionary?

Here are some more--not ONE definition I have found fails to use the operative word (KILL) or (EXECUTE).



Crucify (Random House Dictionary):
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
cru·ci·fy

/&#712;kru

s&#601;&#716;fa&#618;/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kroo-suh-fahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -fied, -fy·ing. 1.to put to death by nailing or binding the hands and feet to a cross. 2.to treat with gross injustice; persecute; torment; torture. 3.to subdue (passion, sin, etc.).
[Origin: ME crucifien < AF, OF crucifier < L crucif&#299;gere, equiv. to L cruci- (s. of crux) cross + f&#299;gere to fix, bind fast

]

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

--------------------------------
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
crucify
c.1300, from O.Fr. crucifer, from V.L. *crucificare, from L.L. crucifigere "to fasten to a cross," from cruci, dat. of L. crux "cross" + figere "fasten" (see fix). An ancient mode of capital punishment considered especially ignominious by the Romans.

--------------------------------------------------
WordNet - Cite This Source crucify
verb1. kill by nailing onto a cross; "Jesus Christ was crucified" 2. treat cruelly; "The children tormented the stuttering teacher" [syn: torment] 3. hold within limits and control; "subdue one's appetites"; "mortify the flesh" [syn: mortify]

4. criticize harshly or violently; "The press savaged the new President"; "The critics crucified the author for plagiarizing a famous passage" [syn: savage]




--------------------------------------
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source
crucify [&#712;kru&#720;sifai] verb

to put to death by fixing the hands and feet to a cross
Example: Christ was crucified.

First ,i don't prefer using "English dictionaries " when it comes to the quran , and i am not obliged to take the meaning of the english translation as an equivalent to the meaning of the original arabic word in the (Arabic_arabic) dictionaries

but let's assume , that the word (crucify) means : 1) to put somone on the cross
2) untill he dies

what evidene supports that jesus was put on the cross ,and was released before he die ? (instead of not being tied to the cross at all ) , what supports this story from the islamic sources ?

 

[Anastasios]

So I asked you for an evidence from the Islamic sources of Islam the Quran and Sunnah. I gave you a clear verse from the Quran stating he was not crucified Surah Nissa 157, you gave me a message or personal interpretation you took from a specific verse. No tafsir, no seerah evidence of when the verse was revealed and what was going on at the time or the context. Just your opinion has been giving and as you know the only opinions that are accepted as authorities in our religion is Allah and His Messenger and those they put in authority over us like the righteous scholars of the first 3 generations only.
So again i am asking you to give me an evidence for your claims.

I corrected a little mistake i meade in my previous post by changing the word "crucified" with "put on the cross".
I have also given a translation of Nisa 157 before.
And I don't think I should feel an obligation to move just in the circle you mention above to be accepted. There is not only one tafsir and seerah! I would expect you to be more free and open. but anyway, so, please don' try to bound me with the borders you wrote.

regards

 

[Popeyesays]

First ,i don't prefer using "English dictionaries " when it comes to the quran , and i am not obliged to take the meaning of the english translation as an equivalent to the meaning of the original arabic word in the (Arabic_arabic) dictionaries

but let's assume , that the word (crucify) means : 1) to put somone on the cross
2) untill he dies

what evidene supports that jesus was put on the cross ,and was released before he die ? (instead of not being tied to the cross at all ) , what supports this story from the islamic sources ?

Please remember, I am not a Muslim. If I choose to look at it from many sources that is my right and, in the boundaries of my own faith, it is my responsibility to do so.

The Gospel and the Qur'an can be rectified with one another if one tries. You have no interest in trying, believing the Gospel is flawed.

Frankly, I don't find myself bound by your strictures. We can disagree and let God sort it out when the time comes.

In my opinion much of the 'tradition' of the Mullahs is just as flawed as the traditions of the Pharisees were in the time of Christ. I have no desire to participate in what amounts to, in my estimation, baseless superstition.

I do not mean to offend, but I do mean to make myself clear.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I am using both Quran and Bible, I believe It is a quite strong idea that may reconcile Quran and Bible on a rational base about the issue of crucifixon.

Brother, we can't be sure of what is in the bible because we don't believe its accurate 100%. It's all guesses and certain assumptions and interpretations of his disciples and others. We only trust the pure word of God and the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed.

 

[TashaN]

We are trying to find out what exactly happened to Jesus, and trying to understand what exactly this conjecture occured about him. Quranic information about Jesus' crucifixion is not explaining every detail, in fact Quran doesn't say many things about Jesus's life.

Does God HAVE to explain everything in details for us?

Jesus is nothing but another prophet of God and i don't really know why you need to know excatly what happened 100% when God already said that they didn't kill him nor crucify him.

About crucifixion, it just simply says the situation was not like people knew until the quranic revelation saying about ambiquity of the situation, came to Muhammad (pbuh). If someone else would have been put instead of him, Quran would have no reason not to mention this person, to give an end to all those debates and conjectures.

We are talking about God in here, who revealed the Quran to Prophet Mohammed, and i don't think that God is obligid to tell us everything the way we want it.

Beside, We see in quran 3.56:

Remember the time when Allah said, 'O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.​

seems to me as a message that Jesus will be saved from such a death, but he will be given natural honourable death. It probably points that Jesus continued his life after survival from crucifixion, until a natural death came upon him.

Despite the idea of Jesus passing away in natural way, how do we know whether it was him on the cross or someone else?

According to a Quran commentary I have "Ma-&#350;alabu-hu means, they did not cause his death on the cross. &#350;alab being a well known of killing. They say &#350;alaba al-Li&#351;&#351;a, i.e., he put the thief to death by putting him on the cross. The verse does not deny the fact of Jesus's being nailed to the cross but denies his having died on it"

In Arabic, when someone say &#350;alaba so it means they put him on the cross because sometimes arabs and some other nations used to put even *dead* people on the cross and even stone them sometimes as a humiliation. Therefore, the arabic word &#350;alaba is much more broad than the english word "crucify", which means to put someone to death by putting him on the cross.

 

[TashaN]

Please remember, I am not a Muslim. If I choose to look at it from many sources that is my right and, in the boundaries of my own faith, it is my responsibility to do so.

Hmmm, i'm confused. sometimes you claim to be a muslim and sometimes you say you are not, maybe it depends on the argument you want to make or something.

Anyway, you are free of course to believe in what you want because the Baha'i faith believe in the Quran as well as the word of God.

The Gospel and the Qur'an can be rectified with one another if one tries. You have no interest in trying, believing the Gospel is flawed.

Its one thing to believe in this theory of yours, and its something totally different to make this assertion because you will not be able to make two totally different things to mean one thing. What you read in the bible are just the interpretations of some Christian writers of what they thought Jesus meant. That is not to say there is no truth in the bible, of course not, i just meant that we don't know which part to trust and which one to not trust, because it all mixed up.

Frankly, I don't find myself bound by your strictures. We can disagree and let God sort it out when the time comes.

Fair enough, but you can't just make some assumption then back off later on saying only God knows. Why to post it in the first place if you can't defend what you believe in.

In my opinion much of the 'tradition' of the Mullahs is just as flawed as the traditions of the Pharisees were in the time of Christ. I have no desire to participate in what amounts to, in my estimation, baseless superstition.

The majority of Muslims don't have Mullahs and you can find that only in the shi'ite beliefs.

 

[Popeyesays]

Hmmm, i'm confused. sometimes you claim to be a muslim and sometimes you say you are not, maybe it depends on the argument you want to make or something.

Anyway, you are free of course to believe in what you want because the Baha'i faith believe in the Quran as well as the word of God.



Its one thing to believe in this theory of yours, and its something totally different to make this assertion because you will not be able to make two totally different things to mean one thing. What you read in the bible are just the interpretations of some Christian writers of what they thought Jesus meant. That is not to say there is no truth in the bible, of course not, i just meant that we don't know which part to trust and which one to not trust, because it all mixed up.



Fair enough, but you can't just make some assumption then back off later on saying only God knows. Why to post it in the first place if you can't defend what you believe in.



The majority of Muslims don't have Mullahs and you can find that only in the shi'ite beliefs.

I've been a Baha`i more than thirty years. That means I accept the Qur'an AND the Gospel, and the Torah, and the Vedas, too for that matter.They are all the Word of God, though each offers more than the last. To most Muslims, I am a heretic at best.

The Gospel has to agree with the Qur'an and vice versa or one or the other is NOT the Word of God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I've been a Baha`i more than thirty years. That means I accept the Qur'an AND the Gospel, and the Torah, and the Vedas, too for that matter.They are all the Word of God, though each offers more than the last. To most Muslims, I am a heretic at best.

That have nothing to do with what i have asked you, anyway, its up to you whether to answer the question or just ignore it.

The Gospel has to agree with the Qur'an and vice versa or one or the other is NOT the Word of God.

Please enlighten me more about this in the link below, which is a thread i have just started for this matter.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=896470#post896470

Thanks in advance.

 

[Xbones]

Hey Scott,
Where did you get these truths from??? If it is the bible then it is a belief, not truths... Sorry my friend you have no credible evidence along with your bible to explain the beliefs that you are portraying. They are what they are beliefs... And they are no stronger than the next person who expresses their beliefs... Beliefs are what they are, a belief in something that can't be proven. But alas you try to prove yourself until others as you have the claim. But you don’t... Prove it to me and everyone where you proof is, that God talks to you, and we will believe. You must have the answer and we all would like to know.

 

[Booko]

Hey Scott,
Where did you get these truths from??? If it is the bible then it is a belief, not truths... Sorry my friend you have no credible evidence along with your bible to explain the beliefs that you are portraying. They are what they are beliefs... And they are no stronger than the next person who expresses their beliefs... Beliefs are what they are, a belief in something that can't be proven. But alas you try to prove yourself until others as you have the claim. But you don’t... Prove it to me and everyone where you proof is, that God talks to you, and we will believe. You must have the answer and we all would like to know.

What does this have to do with whether Jesus died on the cross?

 

[Popeyesays]

That have nothing to do with what i have asked you, anyway, its up to you whether to answer the question or just ignore it.



Please enlighten me more about this in the link below, which is a thread i have just started for this matter.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=896470#post896470

Thanks in advance.

Brother Truth;

I have never claimed to be a MUSLIM as in one who follows the Qur'an as one's sole religion.

I am a Baha`i. In the sense that Muhammad describes Abraham as a Muslim, I, too, am a Muslim. To those who follow the Qur'an as the last word of God on earth, I AM a heretic. Needless to say, I do not believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet and the Qur'an the last revelation. To believe such does not make sense to me, it certainly is not a belief stated in the Qur'an--the traditions that insist upon that interpretation to me are false traditions.

Your mileage may vary.

As to believing that the Quran and the Gospels are in essential agreement with one another:

"XXIV. Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I corrected a little mistake i meade in my previous post by changing the word "crucified" with "put on the cross".
I have also given a translation of Nisa 157 before.
And I don't think I should feel an obligation to move just in the circle you mention above to be accepted. There is not only one tafsir and seerah! I would expect you to be more free and open. but anyway, so, please don' try to bound me with the borders you wrote.

regards

Just give me one tafsir and I am sorry but their is only one seerah. Seerah is the path or the history of islam because it chronicles the life of the Messenger. And since their is only one truth in the matter the seerah is directly related to the tafsir for it gives the context at which the scholars derive the meaning of Quran.

so give a tafsir I do not care which one. Just give one as your evidence for this for it is a evidence for us. And their is only one context in Islam and that is the methodology of the Muhammed and his companions.

I am free and open to any evidence you give but it has to be from our sources for our sources tell an individual you just cannot interpret Quran how you want it must be looked at through the eyes of those who lived it and implemented every part of it without question. For if you look at it through any other lense you may be incorrect forf the Messenger and the companions had the perfect understanding of our religion.

 

[Anastasios]

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=225&region=EN

Mind that ahmadiis are considering every besmele as a verse, so in numbering the verses, it is one more than usual. So you will find the same verse at the number 158.

and this is a larger commentary: http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=581&region=E1&CR=

Regards

 

[SirKnight1788]

He is risen!