Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Popeyesays]

Hi my dear friend, long time no see. I guess you just appear from time to another when you find a good topic to discuss.

I hope you won't mind if i commented on some of your posts.



I'll answer this question "God willing", but first, i'm interested to know whether you believe in the Baha'i faith that Jesus died for the sins of the world or not.



That's what the Baha'i faith followers believe in about the Quran but it's not the case from an islamic point of veiw. If you have any proof that the Quran speaks in metaphor all the time then i'll be interested to know about it.



Why it's unreasonable, and how do you know that it is not based on reality?

What is reality for you as you explained it for me before, is that Bahaullah is the return of Jesus Christ to earth, but i doubt that either Muslims or Christians will agree with you in that.


Peace and blessing,

TT

Essentially, yes. The topic is always what tweaks my interest. It's good to see you as well.

To comment on your questions in order:

Did Jesus die 'for the sins of the world'? No. He died because the people of the time were so opposed to Him and His Message that they murdered Him in an attempt to obliterate His cause. It didn't work. Could Jesus and His Message have been transmitted without the death of Christ upon the cross? Yes. As the Qur'an says of God's Apostles: Some you bring to ridicule and others you murder.

I used the phrase "all the time" in the standard American idion that it happens frequently but not always.

Why do I think the dogma that Christ did NOT die on the cross is unreasonable? Because the language of the verse in question is open to many interpretations, and I find the normal tafseer to be unreasonable. There simply is not enough detail in the verse in question to demand that the normal tafseer be accepted without doubt. I doubt.

Baha`u'llah is an Apostle of God in the Baha`i definition. He is not the same biological being, so therefore the same biological being does not return--now or ever. The "Return of Christ" is a symbolic thing. It's happened three times since the Spirit of Christ left the body of Jesus of Nazareth.

Each of the Manifestations is a unique biological being. They are born in different times and places from different mothers upon the earth. In a Spiritual sense They are all the Word Made Flesh. So Each is the Other, All are different, and All are the Same--all at the same time.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

i think there is a misunderstanding here ,

"it was made to appear to them " doesn't mean he appeared to be dead , it refers to the man who looked exactly like jesus


here is the verse and its tafseer (explanation ) :


" And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."


And for their saying, boastfully, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God', as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says, in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus's] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he; and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā'a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: 'instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]'; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).

Tafsir al-Jalalayn

This is the Ali translation: [157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. (Quran 4:157)

THe translation that you have is contradictory to the Bible and would render the Qu'ran to be not the word of God. The Ali translation is in harmony with the Bible and therefore accredits the Qu'ran.

In order to champion an alternate translation that is contrary to the word of God you will have to come up with very solid evidence that your translation is credible.

There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that there was any substitution for Jesus materially or spiritually.

 

[Muffled]

With that said...what is your perspective then? I've seen cases where the pain was too much that the person passed out.

This does not appear to be the case here. Jesus uttered His last words just before breathing His last. The words "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" bear witness to the event that is taking place.

 

[Muffled]

What are your thoughts on the crucifixion?

This is difficult because these days I don't have my own thoughts very much. I have the mind of Christ.

I can go back to before I knew Jesus. When I was Eleven years old I attended church on a communion day. My thinking was that this man who died for me must have loved me.

 

[TashaN]

Did Jesus die 'for the sins of the world'? No. He died because the people of the time were so opposed to Him and His Message that they murdered Him in an attempt to obliterate His cause. It didn't work. Could Jesus and His Message have been transmitted without the death of Christ upon the cross? Yes. As the Qur'an says of God's Apostles: Some you bring to ridicule and others you murder.

That's why Allah didn't allow them to kill the Messenger of God, not because he is just a prophet of God, because many prophets before him as you know have been killed by the sons of Israel, but because he was a Messenger of God who was holding the message of God to human beings and if a Messenger was killed, so that means he is a false Messenger, because God send messengers to spread his message, and if God can't save his message so how people will accept that message as the truth from the Creator?

Regarding the one who replaced Jesus Christ on the cross according to one of the interpretaions, he died as a martyer for the cause of Allah because he chose to replace Jesus "peace be upon him" by his own will.

I used the phrase "all the time" in the standard American idion that it happens frequently but not always.

Not even frequently, is there any proof for what you claim?

There simply is not enough detail in the verse in question

So you are asking me now why God didn't described it in details because you request that from him or somthing?

I hope you will read that post of mine which was just before the one directed at you, and you might find the answer "God willing" there.

Baha`u'llah is an Apostle of God in the Baha`i definition. He is not the same biological being, so therefore the same biological being does not return--now or ever. The "Return of Christ" is a symbolic thing. It's happened three times since the Spirit of Christ left the body of Jesus of Nazareth.

Why you chose Jesus Christ spirit to be the symbol for that spirit but not the spirit of any other prophets like Moses for instance?

 

[TashaN]

There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that there was any substitution for Jesus materially or spiritually.

Well, of course there will be none, because Jesus wasn't there to tell them what happened to him, isn't it?

Also, human beings won't be able to know more than God about what happened.

This does not appear to be the case here. Jesus uttered His last words just before breathing His last. The words "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" bear witness to the event that is taking place.

Then why he was crying "according to the bible" asking God to save him if he really wanted to offer himself for the sins of the world?

Also, why he was preparing himself for fighting before they catch him?

I can go back to before I knew Jesus. When I was Eleven years old I attended church on a communion day. My thinking was that this man who died for me must have loved me.

Hmmmm, so that means, one must be KILLED "according to the bible" UNWILLINGLY in order to show love for his followers?

How killing a Messenger of God will generate love?

 

[Popeyesays]

Truth:"Hmmmm, so that means, one must be KILLED "according to the bible" UNWILLINGLY in order to show love for his followers?How killing a Messenger of God will generate love?"And yet Muhammad quotes God to say that some of His Messengers meet death at the hands of unbelievers:"Wherefore believe ye in God and His Apostle; and if ye believe and fear, for you is mighty hire. And let not those who are niggard of what God has given them of His grace, count that it is best for them;- nay, it is worse for them. What they have been niggard of shall be a collar round their necks upon the resurrection day. And God's is the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and God of what ye do is well aware. God heard the speech of those who said, 'Verily, God is poor and we are rich.' We will write down what they said, and how they killed the prophets undeservedly, and say, 'Taste ye the torment of burning;' this shall they suffer for what their hands have sent on before;- for, verily, God is no unjust one to His servants,- who say, 'Verily, God has covenanted with us that we should not believe in an apostle until he gives us a sacrifice which fire devours.' Say, 'There have come to you apostles before me with manifest signs, and with what ye talk about; why then did ye kill them, if ye speak the truth?And if they did call thee a liar, apostles before thee have been called liars too, who came with manifest signs, and with scriptures, and with the illuminating Book." (The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)So in those instances the death of the Messenger did not bring the grace and love of God to earth? Of course, it did--even if unbelievers slay the Messenger.Allah does not spare His Messenger death--all must die. God does not spare His Messenger from the hands of unbelievers either, though I, too, believe those who slay the Messenger meet justice at the hands of God.Regards,Scott

 

[TashaN]

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

Which verse?

 

[Popeyesays]

Which verse?

The translations sometimes vary as to verse.

"183. They (also) said: "Allah took our promise not to believe in a messenger unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by fire (from heaven)." Say: "There came to you Messengers before me, with clear signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?"
184. Then if they reject thee, so were rejected Messengers before thee, who came with clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of enlightenment.
185. Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the fire and admitted to the garden will have attained the object (of life): for the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.
186. Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.
187. And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! and vile was the bargain they made!
188. Think not that those who exult in what they have brought about, and love to be praised for what they have not done, think not that they can escape the penalty. For them is a penalty grievous indeed" Yusuf Ali

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

The translations sometimes vary as to verse.

"183. They (also) said: "Allah took our promise not to believe in a messenger unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by fire (from heaven)." Say: "There came to you Messengers before me, with clear signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?"
184. Then if they reject thee, so were rejected Messengers before thee, who came with clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of enlightenment.
185. Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the fire and admitted to the garden will have attained the object (of life): for the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.
186. Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.
187. And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! and vile was the bargain they made!
188. Think not that those who exult in what they have brought about, and love to be praised for what they have not done, think not that they can escape the penalty. For them is a penalty grievous indeed" Yusuf Ali

Regards,
Scott

It's the same as these verses:

[91] When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah hath sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us;" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?" (Surah 2)

[21] As to those who deny the Signs of Allah, and in defiance of right, slay the Prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty. (Surah 3)

That's why the scholars said, if a messenger or a prophet came alone in the verse so it reffer to the same thing, but if it's together so it means two different things.

Anyway, what i was talking about are those whom we call in Islam as أولى العزم "Aoli al-azim" of Messengers like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed "peace be upon them all".

 

[logician]

Just as an important question is, did Jesus ever live?

 

[athanasius]

Just as an important question is, did Jesus ever live?

Personally there is more evidence for Jesus living than we have for you. But then again why do you even care, your a athiest. YOu are God to yourself, and maybe science is another infallible demiGod to you. Booooohooooooo on you!

 

[Muffled]

Well, of course there will be none, because Jesus wasn't there to tell them what happened to him, isn't it?

Also, human beings won't be able to know more than God about what happened.



Then why he was crying "according to the bible" asking God to save him if he really wanted to offer himself for the sins of the world?

Also, why he was preparing himself for fighting before they catch him?



Hmmmm, so that means, one must be KILLED "according to the bible" UNWILLINGLY in order to show love for his followers?

How killing a Messenger of God will generate love?

This is completely bogus reasoning. You are saying that Jesus couldn't tell us because He wasn't there is a proof that He wasn't there. On the contrary if God wanted such a thing to be known it would be known but God is not the champion of falsehoods, so it isn't there becasue God wouldn't speak falsely. All you have is vain speculation without an iota of evidence.

The Christian can know whatever the Paraclete wishes to reveal

There was another time that Jesus wept over Lazarus because He loved him and Lazarus had died. Jesus weeps over us because of our sin which is killing us and for the same reason because He loves us. I agree with Jesus that there ought to be some other way but there just isn't.

Jesus was making it quite clear to the Jews that He was going voluntarily by showing that he could fight but chose not to. So for this verse a Jew can't boast that he killed Jesus because Jesus went to His death voluntarily.

There is no greater act that can be done by one person on behalf of another. It was an eyeopenener for me when I saw that it was God who loved me enough to suffer and die for me.

 

[TashaN]

This is completely bogus reasoning. You are saying that Jesus couldn't tell us because He wasn't there is a proof that He wasn't there.

No, i was simply showing that your claim in the pervious post is not accurate when you said:

"There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that there was any substitution for Jesus materially or spiritually."

The Christian can know whatever the Paraclete wishes to reveal

Who is the Paraclete?

Jesus weeps over us because of our sin which is killing us

Please quote Jesus when he say so.

Jesus was making it quite clear to the Jews that He was going voluntarily by showing that he could fight but chose not to. So for this verse a Jew can't boast that he killed Jesus because Jesus went to His death voluntarily.

Voluntarily? I doubt it.

Jesus Christ prepared himself to fight and asked his deciples to follow him in doing so.

"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36

This is a preparation for Jihaad as you can see.

". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough". (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38

If the swords were spiritual, then the "garments" must also be spiritual. If the disciples of Jesus were to sell their SPIRITUAL garments to buy SPIRITUAL swords, in that case they would all become SPIRITUALLY naked! Furthermore, one does not lop off peoples physical ears with spiritual swords.

"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear." (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:51

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

". . . Master, shall we smite them with the sword?" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:49

But before Jesus could attempt a reply, the impetuous Peter struck out with his sword and cut off the right ear of one of the enemy. Jesus had not anticipated Roman soldiers. Realising that the tables were turned against his misconceived strategy, he advises his disciples:

". . . Put up again thy sword into its place; for all they that TAKE THE SWORD shall PERISH WITH THE SWORD." (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:52

Did Jesus not know the truth of this statement when he ordered his disciples to sell their garments and buy SWORDS? He surely did! Then why the contradiction now? . There is really no contradiction! The situation changes, so the strategy must also change. He had sense enough to realise that against trained and well-equipped Roman soldiers it would be suicidal for his sleepy warriors to offer even a pretence of resistance.

There is no greater act that can be done by one person on behalf of another. It was an eyeopenener for me when I saw that it was God who loved me enough to suffer and die for me.

Why Jesus must be killed in order to make you love him? to make you feel pity for him or something?

 

[Muffled]

No, i was simply showing that your claim in the pervious post is not accurate when you said:

"There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that there was any substitution for Jesus materially or spiritually."



Who is the Paraclete?



Please quote Jesus when he say so.



Voluntarily? I doubt it.

Jesus Christ prepared himself to fight and asked his deciples to follow him in doing so.

"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36

This is a preparation for Jihaad as you can see.

". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough". (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38

If the swords were spiritual, then the "garments" must also be spiritual. If the disciples of Jesus were to sell their SPIRITUAL garments to buy SPIRITUAL swords, in that case they would all become SPIRITUALLY naked! Furthermore, one does not lop off peoples physical ears with spiritual swords.

"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear." (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:51

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

". . . Master, shall we smite them with the sword?" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:49

But before Jesus could attempt a reply, the impetuous Peter struck out with his sword and cut off the right ear of one of the enemy. Jesus had not anticipated Roman soldiers. Realising that the tables were turned against his misconceived strategy, he advises his disciples:

". . . Put up again thy sword into its place; for all they that TAKE THE SWORD shall PERISH WITH THE SWORD." (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:52

Did Jesus not know the truth of this statement when he ordered his disciples to sell their garments and buy SWORDS? He surely did! Then why the contradiction now? . There is really no contradiction! The situation changes, so the strategy must also change. He had sense enough to realise that against trained and well-equipped Roman soldiers it would be suicidal for his sleepy warriors to offer even a pretence of resistance.




Why Jesus must be killed in order to make you love him? to make you feel pity for him or something?

You are welcome to try to find a verse supporting your view but you will not be able to.

The Paraclete is the spirit of God in me and others who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior. Jesus and the Father (Allah) are the Paraclete, one spirit and one person in all three cases.

You have heard it for the first time as Jesus spoke through me.

You can doubt God's love for you if you like but Jesus said that it was for that purpose He came into the world.

I never said that. I said that He chose not to use them.

This is pure conjecture on your part. There is no verse that says that Jesus intended to use the swords. Jesus also said that He could have called ten thousand angels but He chose not to do that either.

Again this is pure speculation on your part. Yes Jesus knows but it is evident from the verse that Peter hasn't learned this yet. Since Jesus knows the swords aren't for defense, then His purpose was to teach.

Why should I feel pity for God because He loved me enough to take my suffering, my death and my sin so that I could be free from that suffering, death and sin.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Interesting

The Bible says that Jesus died:

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said "Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit". Having said this, He breathed His last.

and the Qur'an says He did not:

Surah 4:157
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary), the apostle of Allah; they did not kill him nor did they crucify him but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

This does appear to be a contradiction. Have you found a way to reconcile the texts?

What is to reconcile? they are not the same.

 

[Popeyesays]

I have found a way to reconcile them that makes sense.

Jesus's spirit was taken up from the cross and the only thing left was the body--the body is insignificant. The flesh is dust.

Both verses are symbolic of the passing of the flesh and the raising of the spirit.

Regards,
Scott

 

[neves]

If the spirit left the flesh doesn't it mean he died? Well that how I see death... so inturn the contradicts the Quran... unless he was taken flesh, spirit and all... he was killed...no?

 

[Popeyesays]

Christians will say: "Yet, He did not die." They are speaking metaphorically. Obviously He did die, ALL men die. This does not destroy the symbolic significance of either the Qur'an or the Gospels.

Not every word of the Gospels or the Qur'an is literal truth. Truth can not be described adequately without symbols and metaphor. To insist on literal truth is childish at best.
To think that any sacred text contains the ABSOLUTE truth is also childish. There is no absolute truth taht can be transmitted in language.

Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

You are welcome to try to find a verse supporting your view but you will not be able to.

Do you really understand what i'm talking about?

I'll say it for the last time, Jesus wasn't there to write down what happened to him so it's normal not to find any solid proof from the bible for what happened to him excatly, because it's based on human experince but not the word of God.

That's why, when i told you it's normal not to find any evidence from the bible it was a respond to what you said in red below:


"There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that there was any substitution for Jesus materially or spiritually."


I hope you got it this time.

The Paraclete is the spirit of God in me and others who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior. Jesus and the Father (Allah) are the Paraclete, one spirit and one person in all three cases.

Please don't encourage me to start on the trinity issue because i don't want to ruin this thread.

There is absolutely no evidence that God's spirit can only be reserved for you and those who worship Jesus alone, nor you have proof that trinity is a correct doctrine.

You have heard it for the first time as Jesus spoke through me.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that Jesus can speak through you.

Anyone can claim that Jesus is talking to him, me also, i can claim that Jesus talked to me and i can ask people to believe me because Jesus said so through me.

Would you believe me if i said Christ is talking to me?

You can doubt God's love for you if you like but Jesus said that it was for that purpose He came into the world.

Jesus never claimed that he was sent to be crucified, but rather, he clearly said "according to the bible":

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword".

I never said that. I said that He chose not to use them.

He prepared for the battle, but his enemies were much more in number than him and his disciples so he gave up "according to the bible", and he didn't tell them "please crucify me!!!", and i proved that for you from your holy book.

This is pure conjecture on your part. There is no verse that says that Jesus intended to use the swords. Jesus also said that He could have called ten thousand angels but He chose not to do that either.

I have a proof for what i say and you don't.

Tell me, why he asked his disciples to buy swords?

Since Jesus knows the swords aren't for defense

Then for what? cutting bananas?

Why should I feel pity for God because He loved me enough to take my suffering, my death and my sin so that I could be free from that suffering, death and sin.

If God can forgive, then why he couldn't simply forgive you right away, he has no power to forgive?