Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[neves]

Christians will say: "Yet, He did not die." They are speaking metaphorically. Obviously He did die, ALL men die. This does not destroy the symbolic significance of either the Qur'an or the Gospels.

Not every word of the Gospels or the Qur'an is literal truth. Truth can not be described adequately without symbols and metaphor. To insist on literal truth is childish at best.
To think that any sacred text contains the ABSOLUTE truth is also childish. There is no absolute truth taht can be transmitted in language.

Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott

sorry I just don't see how you can take:

Surah 4:157
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary), the apostle of Allah; they did not kill him nor did they crucify him but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

to metaphorically mean he died... sorry my mind is too childish to comprehend that...

 

[TashaN]

Not every word of the Gospels or the Qur'an is literal truth.

To think that any sacred text contains the ABSOLUTE truth is also childish.

I have found a way to reconcile them that makes sense.

Jesus's spirit was taken up from the cross and the only thing left was the body--the body is insignificant. The flesh is dust.

Both verses are symbolic of the passing of the flesh and the raising of the spirit.

You have absolutely no evidence for what you claim.

[157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. (Quran 4:157)

 

[neves]

Just so I am not accused of Cherry-picking.... here are 10 line before and after that verse (4:157) ... I don't want to quote the whole sura cause it will take up too much space...

Sura An-Nisa

What concern hath Allah for your punishment if ye are thankful (for His mercies) and believe (in Him)? Allah was ever Responsive, Aware. (147) Allah loveth not the utterance of harsh speech save by one who hath been wronged. Allah is ever Hearer, Knower. (148) If ye do good openly or keep it secret, or forgive evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Powerful. (149) Lo! those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and seek to make distinction between Allah and His messengers, and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and seek to choose a way in between; (150) Such are disbelievers in truth; and for disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom. (151) But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (152) The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) Book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority. (153) And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bade them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant. (154) Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few - (155) And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny; (156) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (157) But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. (158) There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them - (159) Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way, (160) And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom. (161) But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward. (162) Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms; (163) And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses; (164) Messengers of good cheer and of warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. (165) But Allah (Himself) testifieth concerning that which He hath revealed unto thee; in His knowledge hath He revealed it; and the Angels also testify. And Allah is sufficient Witness. (166) Lo! those who disbelieve and hinder (others) from the way of Allah, they verily have wandered far astray. (167)

Here In Arabic just so its more clear...

مَّا يَفۡعَلُ ٱللَّهُ بِعَذَابِڪُمۡ إِن شَكَرۡتُمۡ وَءَامَنتُمۡ*ۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ شَاڪِرًا عَلِيمً۬ا (١٤٧&#65279 ۞ لَّا يُحِبُّ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡجَهۡرَ بِٱلسُّوٓءِ مِنَ ٱلۡقَوۡلِ إِلَّا مَن ظُلِمَ*ۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ سَمِيعًا عَلِيمًا (١٤٨&#65279 إِن تُبۡدُواْ خَيۡرًا أَوۡ تُخۡفُوهُ أَوۡ تَعۡفُواْ عَن سُوٓءٍ۬ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَفُوًّ۬ا قَدِيرًا (١٤٩&#65279 إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ يَكۡفُرُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيۡنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ وَيَقُولُونَ نُؤۡمِنُ بِبَعۡضٍ۬ وَنَڪۡفُرُ بِبَعۡضٍ۬ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يَتَّخِذُواْ بَيۡنَ ذَٲلِكَ سَبِيلاً (١٥٠&#65279 أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡكَـٰفِرُونَ حَقًّ۬ا*ۚ وَأَعۡتَدۡنَا لِلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ عَذَابً۬ا مُّهِينً۬ا (١٥١&#65279 وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ وَلَمۡ يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيۡنَ أَحَدٍ۬ مِّنۡہُمۡ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ سَوۡفَ يُؤۡتِيهِمۡ أُجُورَهُمۡ*ۗ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُورً۬ا رَّحِيمً۬ا (١٥٢&#65279 يَسۡـَٔلُكَ أَهۡلُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ أَن تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيۡہِمۡ كِتَـٰبً۬ا مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ*ۚ فَقَدۡ سَأَلُواْ مُوسَىٰٓ أَكۡبَرَ مِن ذَٲلِكَ فَقَالُوٓاْ أَرِنَا ٱللَّهَ جَهۡرَةً۬ فَأَخَذَتۡهُمُ ٱلصَّـٰعِقَةُ بِظُلۡمِهِمۡ*ۚ ثُمَّ ٱتَّخَذُواْ ٱلۡعِجۡلَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا جَآءَتۡهُمُ ٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتُ فَعَفَوۡنَا عَن ذَٲلِكَ*ۚ وَءَاتَيۡنَا مُوسَىٰ سُلۡطَـٰنً۬ا مُّبِينً۬ا (١٥٣&#65279 وَرَفَعۡنَا فَوۡقَهُمُ ٱلطُّورَ بِمِيثَـٰقِهِمۡ وَقُلۡنَا لَهُمُ ٱدۡخُلُواْ ٱلۡبَابَ سُجَّدً۬ا وَقُلۡنَا لَهُمۡ لَا تَعۡدُواْ فِى ٱلسَّبۡتِ وَأَخَذۡنَا مِنۡہُم مِّيثَـٰقًا غَلِيظً۬ا (١٥٤&#65279 فَبِمَا نَقۡضِہِم مِّيثَـٰقَهُمۡ وَكُفۡرِهِم بِـَٔايَـٰتِ ٱللَّهِ وَقَتۡلِهِمُ ٱلۡأَنۢبِيَآءَ بِغَيۡرِ حَقٍّ۬ وَقَوۡلِهِمۡ قُلُوبُنَا غُلۡفُۢ*ۚ بَلۡ طَبَعَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيۡہَا بِكُفۡرِهِمۡ فَلَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ إِلَّا قَلِيلاً۬ (١٥٥&#65279 وَبِكُفۡرِهِمۡ وَقَوۡلِهِمۡ عَلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ بُہۡتَـٰنًا عَظِيمً۬ا (١٥٦&#65279 وَقَوۡلِهِمۡ إِنَّا قَتَلۡنَا ٱلۡمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ٱبۡنَ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمۡ*ۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱخۡتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّ۬ مِّنۡهُ*ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنۡ عِلۡمٍ إِلَّا ٱتِّبَاعَ ٱلظَّنِّ*ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينَۢا (١٥٧&#65279 بَل رَّفَعَهُ ٱللَّهُ إِلَيۡهِ*ۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمً۬ا (١٥٨&#65279 وَإِن مِّنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ إِلَّا لَيُؤۡمِنَنَّ بِهِۦ قَبۡلَ مَوۡتِهِۦ*ۖ وَيَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيۡہِمۡ شَہِيدً۬ا (١٥٩&#65279 فَبِظُلۡمٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ حَرَّمۡنَا عَلَيۡہِمۡ طَيِّبَـٰتٍ أُحِلَّتۡ لَهُمۡ وَبِصَدِّهِمۡ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيرً۬ا (١٦٠&#65279 وَأَخۡذِهِمُ ٱلرِّبَوٰاْ وَقَدۡ نُہُواْ عَنۡهُ وَأَكۡلِهِمۡ أَمۡوَٲلَ ٱلنَّاسِ بِٱلۡبَـٰطِلِ*ۚ وَأَعۡتَدۡنَا لِلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ مِنۡہُمۡ عَذَابًا أَلِيمً۬ا (١٦١&#65279 لَّـٰكِنِ ٱلرَّٲسِخُونَ فِى ٱلۡعِلۡمِ مِنۡہُمۡ وَٱلۡمُؤۡمِنُونَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ*ۚ وَٱلۡمُقِيمِينَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ*ۚ وَٱلۡمُؤۡتُونَ ٱلزَّڪَوٰةَ وَٱلۡمُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ سَنُؤۡتِيہِمۡ أَجۡرًا عَظِيمًا (١٦٢&#65279 ۞ إِنَّآ أَوۡحَيۡنَآ إِلَيۡكَ كَمَآ أَوۡحَيۡنَآ إِلَىٰ نُوحٍ۬ وَٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِهِۦ*ۚ وَأَوۡحَيۡنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ وَإِسۡمَـٰعِيلَ وَإِسۡحَـٰقَ وَيَعۡقُوبَ وَٱلۡأَسۡبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَـٰرُونَ وَسُلَيۡمَـٰنَ*ۚ وَءَاتَيۡنَا دَاوُ ۥدَ زَبُورً۬ا (١٦٣&#65279 وَرُسُلاً۬ قَدۡ قَصَصۡنَـٰهُمۡ عَلَيۡكَ مِن قَبۡلُ وَرُسُلاً۬ لَّمۡ نَقۡصُصۡهُمۡ عَلَيۡكَ*ۚ وَكَلَّمَ ٱللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَڪۡلِيمً۬ا (١٦٤&#65279 رُّسُلاً۬ مُّبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ لِئَلَّا يَكُونَ لِلنَّاسِ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ حُجَّةُۢ بَعۡدَ ٱلرُّسُلِ*ۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمً۬ا (١٦٥&#65279 لَّـٰكِنِ ٱللَّهُ يَشۡہَدُ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ إِلَيۡكَ*ۖ أَنزَلَهُ ۥ بِعِلۡمِهِۦ*ۖ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ يَشۡهَدُونَ*ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَہِيدًا (١٦٦&#65279 إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَصَدُّواْ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ قَدۡ ضَلُّواْ ضَلَـٰلاَۢ بَعِيدًا (١٦٧&#65279

Show me your evidence... metaphorically or otherwise...

 

[Popeyesays]

"They did not slay him, nor crucify Him, but Allah took Him up unto Himself."

I don't believe we are expected to believe the impossible: to strain at gnats, yet gulp down whales.

It is my opinion, based on decades of reading the world religious texts that the greatest enemy of religious unity and the progress of civilization is the tendency of people to cling to unsubstantiated superstition in place of facing the harsh reality of clearing away those veils created by the imagination of men. I don't mean to chastise anyone here, I embfrace the fact that Muhammad was the Apostle of God and His words are the word of God; but, Islam is ever practical, it does not do well with self-inflicted superstition.

I can read the Qur'an and see clearly that Christ was raised up from the cross by the will of God. I can see that metaphorically the body on the cross NOT Christ. I can also test the proposition that the body up there was someone else entirely and find that position to be unsupported by the words of the Qur'an.

It is unsupported because it is needlessly cruel to inflict that death upon someone else other than Jesus, and God is not cruel. God is merciful. To do so would be to ignore justice and God is Just. To do so would not be the act of the Sovereign of the universe, and God is sovereign above all His created things. Such an act would be beneath the moral level that God requires of us.

So I do not believe that God would substitute someone, anyhone, for Jesus.

How do I balance these two positions:
God saw the death to be inflicted upon His best beloved Messenger, He raised the Spirit of Christ up to Himself and let the ill-wishers and murderers think they had killed Jesus. They never did because the Spirit of Christ was Christ Himself. The Spirit of Christ was the Apostle of God. God rescued the Spirit of Christ because He loved and cherished His Creation.

ANything else to me appears to be clergy-created superstition. It does not satisfy Occam's Razor. It does not staisfy Justice. It does not satisfy rational belief.

"Alas! that humanity is completely submerged in imitations and unrealities notwithstanding the truth of divine religion has ever remained the same. Superstitions have obscured the fundamental reality, the world is darkened and the light of religion is not apparent. This darkness is conducive to differences and dissensions; rites and dogmas are many and various; therefore discord has arisen among the religious systems whereas religion is for the unification of mankind. True religion is the source of love and agreement amongst men, the cause of the development of praiseworthy qualities; but the people are holding to the counterfeit and imitation, negligent of the reality which unifies; so they are bereft and deprived of the radiance of religion. They follow superstitions inherited from their fathers and ancestors. To such an extent has this prevailed that they have taken away the heavenly light of divine truth and sit in the darkness of imitations and imaginations. That which was meant to be conducive to life has become the cause of death; that which should have been an evidence of knowledge is now a proof of ignorance; that which was a factor in the sublimity of human nature has proved to be its degradation. Therefore the realm of the religionist has gradually narrowed and darkened and the sphere of the materialist has widened and advanced; for the religionist has held to imitation and counterfeit, neglecting and discarding holiness and the sacred reality of religion. When the sun sets it is the time for bats to fly. They come forth because they are creatures of the night. When the lights of religion become darkened the materialists appear. They are the bats of night. The decline of religion is their time of activity; they seek the shadows when the world is darkened and clouds have spread over it."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 237)


Regards,
Scott

 

[neves]

"They did not slay him, nor crucify Him, but Allah took Him up unto Himself."

Regards,
Scott

http://dictionary.reference.com/

Slay: verb, slew, slain, slay·ing, noun –verb (used with object) 1.to kill by violence. 2.to destroy; extinguish. 3.sley. 4.Informal. to impress strongly; overwhelm, esp. by humor: Your jokes slay me. 5.Obsolete. to strike. –verb (used without object) 6.to kill or murder. –noun 7.sley.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME sleen, slayn, OE sléan; c. D slaan, G schlagen, ON slā, Goth slahan to strike, beat

]

—Related formsslay·a·ble, adjective
slayer, noun

—Synonyms 1. murder, slaughter, massacre, butcher, assassinate. 2. annihilate, ruin.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

 

[Popeyesays]

They did not slay the Messenger of God. Instead God raised the Spirit (which WAS the Messenger) up unto Himself.

This does not require a mannequin to have been left behind in His place.

Regards,
Scott

 

[neves]

I foresee this going in circles... Peace friend...

 

[Popeyesays]

I foresee this going in circles... Peace friend...

If you foresee that neither of us is likely to change his mind, that's true. God will choose in the end and we will understand our errors.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

I have found a way to reconcile them that makes sense.

Jesus's spirit was taken up from the cross and the only thing left was the body--the body is insignificant. The flesh is dust.

Both verses are symbolic of the passing of the flesh and the raising of the spirit.

Regards,
Scott

This is the essential meaning of the statement Jesus made that He was comending His spirit to God. THe body was still alive when the Spirit left and the Spirit did not undergo the death of the body. Therefore the Jews neither slayed nor crucified Him.

This isn't entirely true because the body would later be resurrected. (See the thread on the resurrection of Jesus)

 

[Muffled]

If the spirit left the flesh doesn't it mean he died? Well that how I see death... so inturn the contradicts the Quran... unless he was taken flesh, spirit and all... he was killed...no?

Because the Spirit of God was no longer in the body, it was no longer able to raise iself up to breathe and the body died. From God's point of view He wasn't there, did not go through that death and therefore He didn't die. However to anyone witnessing the dead body it appeared to them that Jesus died because they were not able to discern the event taking place as they were unable to discern the import of the statement that Jesus made.

 

[TashaN]

"They did not slay him, nor crucify Him, but Allah took Him up unto Himself."

Please read post # 38 to get your answer and what you are confused about.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50030

Islam is ever practical, it does not do well with self-inflicted superstition.

That's your opinion about Islam and i respect it, but i don't have to agree with it because it my opinion, it's plain falsehood and misjudgement in your part about my faith.

I can read the Qur'an and see clearly that Christ was raised up from the cross

You read all the way as you want but you will never find a single notion in the Quran that states he was crucified, as you claim.

It is unsupported because it is needlessly cruel to inflict that death upon someone else other than Jesus

Awesome, and it's not cruel to crucify Jesus Christ !!!

Do you know what is the problem i noticed in Baha'i point of view?

You try so hard to say that the bible and the Quran say the same thing in certain issues, and when i show you a proof that it doesn't match, you try to escape using the metaphor and spiritual bodies stuff arguments without any evidence but just plain false desire of twisting the word of God.

That's why i mentioned this verse earlier and i think you didn't get it yet, so i'll have to post it again, you might have a look on it this time "hopefully".

.... and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. (Quran 4:157)

 

[TashaN]

This is the essential meaning of the statement Jesus made that He was comending His spirit to God.

No he didn't, he was crying to God asking for help.

Was the prayer of Jesus (pbuh) being answered? He had cried (o the loving father in heaven for help, with strong crying and tears:

"And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:44

What can be expected from such heart-felt prayer and importuning? One of the four brothers of Jesus reminds us that:

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
(HOLY BIBLE) James 5:16

1. The Christians give brothers and sisters to Jesus, through a union of Mary with Joseph the Carpenter. (Matthew 13:55-56).

2. God Almighty does not go up or down He is Omnipresent. All-Prevading. Present everywhere!


Paul confirms that his supplications did not fall on deaf ears:

"Who, in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was HEARD in that he feared." (HOLY BIBLE) Hebrews 5:7

What does it mean "God heard" his prayers! It means that God accepted his prayers. God Almighty is not deaf at any time. He is the All-Hearing God. He heard (accepted) the supplication of Jesus in the same way that He had heard (accepted) the prayer of father Abraham. Abraham, in his old-age had prayed for a son, and Ishmael was born. The words of Abraham had become flesh. Ishmael literally means "GOD HEARD", in Hebrew. Zakariah also in his old-age prayed for a son, and God heard (accepted) his prayers, and John the Baptist was born. Now Jesus cried for help, and God heard (accepted) his prayers:

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him."
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:43

Strengthening him in the faith, in the hope that God will save him. This is actually what he was beseeching God to do for him. When and how rests alone in the Hands of God. His ways are not our ways.

Believe me, when you say that Jesus have to be killed in order to save you, you remind me of some horror American movies where the father or the mother, etc have to kill their son or relative, etc if they suspected that a devil spirit or something is inside him, and they bring him to the church and they slay him and then they thank God that their task is done perfectly. :areyoucra

You should be the first one to admit that Jesus wasn't killed nor he was crucified if you really love him. By claiming that you should see your loved one killed in order to spare your self is nonesense to me and show a contradiction of emotions and thinking in your part.

Also, please don't forget to comment in the following.

"Touch me not! For I am not yet ASCENDED unto my Father" (HOLY BIBLE) John 20:17

He is simply saying: "I AM ALIVE!"

"And they (the disciples), when they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her (Mary Magdalene),they BELIEVED NOT." (HOLY BIBLE) Mark 16:11

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I have found a way to reconcile them that makes sense.

Jesus's spirit was taken up from the cross

Quran says he was not on the cross and he did not die. There is no way to reconcile they say Jesus is God, Quran says otherwise. the Quran says obey the Messenger of Allah they do not. the Quran says worship only one God, they do not. the Quran says Trinity desist in saying that those who believe it are in hellfire. they believe in the Trinity. Quran says Jesus is the Messenger of Allah and not his son, the bible says otherwise. the Bible says that the Prophets and Messengers appointed by God committed major sins like fornicating with their siblings, having children, getting drunk, running around naked drunk, sleeping with prostitutes when the Quran says they are the best of people with the best of character and they are the models for mankind for they did not commit major sins. The bible says How do you reconcile. i have many other ways they are no way close. The Quran says only Islam will be accepted by Allah on the Day of Judgment anything other will be in hellfire (surah Imran 3:85). Please, my brother Scott, how do you reconcile. You cannot. It is either Islam or the blazing fire forever.

Both verses are symbolic of the passing of the flesh and the raising of the spirit.

Regards,
Scott

What verse are you talking about. There is no verse in Quran that says any of this or supports it. the bible is an altered text and not authored by those whom they claim to worship. They worship those who authored it which obviously is not Allah. As stated in the Quran. so how do you reconcile?

 

[Popeyesays]

The fires of hell are, in my opinion, a recurring metaphor in the Qur'an. I am pleased you take such concern with my well-being, but I do not fear fire.

To worship God for fear of punishment or hope of reward is not worthy of God.

"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

By the way, I've looked, nowhere in the Gospels does anyone make the claim that Jesus is God. That some may make that claim in the Epistles is a different thing entirely.

Following the Gospels will not lead anyone to perdition. God protects His Own words.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Brother Truth,

It does not reflect well upon you or me to accuse the other of twisting the truth. I make the best effort I can to understand, and you do the same. Please, don't accuse me of twisting the word of God. I have never done so to you.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

The fires of hell are, in my opinion, a recurring metaphor in the Qur'an. I am pleased you take such concern with my well-being, but I do not fear fire.

Again this is your opinion and in terms of Quran it is not an authority. Only what Allah and His messenger are. Death is true, hell is true, paradise is true.

To worship God for fear of punishment or hope of reward is not worthy of God.

Again this is not what is Islam,

"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Thats nice.

By the way, I've looked, nowhere in the Gospels does anyone make the claim that Jesus is God. That some may make that claim in the Epistles is a different thing entirely.

Exactly. it is not there yet they believe it.

Following the Gospels will not lead anyone to perdition. God protects His Own words.

Regards,
Scott

To bad they are not his because of the alterations, you know deletions and additions. That would be like me writing my own bab passing it off as his. would you accept it. I take the bab change what you know to be true would you accept it.

We do not accept it in our faith, we have the Quran and Sunnah they are truth and enough for me. All are entitled to their opinion. but the ulitmate opinion is what Allah has of you on the Day of Judgment. I just pray he gives you hidayah so His opinion on whether you get the fire forever or not that it is the latter.

peace.

 

[UnityNow101]

That is why Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith are all seperate religions. All 3 have different ways of looking at this and many issues...Some of the issues amongst the three cannot be reconciled. I believe, based upon the Bible, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died and rose on the third day. This is all recorded by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. Whereas Islam believes that Jesus didn't even die, thus did not need to be raised from the dead. And the Bahai's believe everything to be spiritual. They are three different viewpoints. All can be respected, but they cannot all be reconciled in my opinion.

 

[Popeyesays]

That is why Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith are all seperate religions. All 3 have different ways of looking at this and many issues...Some of the issues amongst the three cannot be reconciled. I believe, based upon the Bible, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died and rose on the third day. This is all recorded by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. Whereas Islam believes that Jesus didn't even die, thus did not need to be raised from the dead. And the Bahai's believe everything to be spiritual. They are three different viewpoints. All can be respected, but they cannot all be reconciled in my opinion.

Not so separate--they all trace their authority through Abraham. Each in succession accepts the previous religions.

It's the most basic tenet of the Baha`i Faith that there are no truly separate religions--they are all chapters in the NeverEnding Book.

By the way Islam does not say that Jesus never died. Some Muslims accept the death on the cross as I have portrayed it, most believe that Christ was never hung upon the cross, but that does not mean He never died. He did in fact die as all men die in the given time.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

"We do not accept it in our faith, we have the Quran and Sunnah they are truth and enough for me. All are entitled to their opinion. but the ulitmate opinion is what Allah has of you on the Day of Judgment. I just pray he gives you hidayah so His opinion on whether you get the fire forever or not that it is the latter. "

The Justice of God is infinite, but we can take comfort in the fact that the Mercy of God is just as unending. I offer prayers for you as well--not for your 'conversion' to my beliefs but for God to grant you His mercy in an unending flow.

I noticed the statement above that Paradise is true. Hell is true. I want to point out that I completely agree.

However, I would like to point out that the only Absolute Truth is God, and God is beyond my knowledge or understanding. I can only depend upon what the Apostles of God tell me is true. Since Those APostles of God are not God either, they do not possess Absolute Truth either. They possess a more sure knowledge than I, but that knowledge is not Absolute. Absolute knowledge is only possessed by God.

Man can grasp truth, but not absolute truth. He can only comprehend truth relative to man's station as a Creation of God.

Therefore the Torah is true, but it's truth is not Absolute. The Injeel is true, but it's truth is not Absolute. The Qur'an is true, but it's not Absolute Truth.

So, too, are the writings of the Bab and Baha`u'llah relative. In due time another Apostle of God will appear in this new cycle of Revelation and that truth will not be Absolute either.

The Apostles reveal the truth that God bids Them speak and no more. The truth of God is infinite and beyond the comprehension of Man.

Isaac Newton possessed the truth, but Relativity and Quantum Mechanics show that truth was not Absolute. The Laws of Thermodynamics do not apply everywhere, therefore the truth is relative, not Absolute.

Man can never comprehend the Absolute.

Regards--peace to you and yours,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

The fires of hell are, in my opinion, a recurring metaphor in the Qur'an. I am pleased you take such concern with my well-being, but I do not fear fire.

You seem so sure about it. Please read this verse to know whether fire is a metaphor or not.

[56] Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Quran 4:56)

To worship God for fear of punishment or hope of reward is not worthy of God.

[56] Do no mischief on the earth, after it hath been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing (in your hearts): for the Mercy of Allah is (always) near to those who do good. (Quran 7:56)

As you can see, Allah answered the doubts in your heart through the same number of the verse which is '56' in two different Surahs.

Therefore, the metaphor stuff you are talking about is false.

Brother Truth,

It does not reflect well upon you or me to accuse the other of twisting the truth. I make the best effort I can to understand, and you do the same. Please, don't accuse me of twisting the word of God. I have never done so to you.

It wasn't wise from you to accuse our understanding of the Quran which is based on the understanding of Prophet Mohammed by calling it childish.

[23] Then, by the Lord of heaven and earth, this is the very Truth, as much as the fact that ye can speak intelligently to each other. (Quran 51:23)