Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Qur'an says God took Jesus up to Himself. Jesus passed in an inordinately short time, therefore the texts are reconciled.
Regards,
Scott
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Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?
- Thread starter Muffled
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The Qur'an says God took Jesus up to Himself. Jesus passed in an inordinately short time, therefore the texts are reconciled.
Regards,
Scott
The Quran says they didn't crucify him.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
And they did not--not in any real sense.
Instead God took Him up to Himself. You have to understand that crucifixion was not a quick death. It took days. Yet Christ seems to have passed within a few hours.
The Spirit was taken from the body. In answer to the prayers of Jesus? Probably. To prevent suffering? Probably.
The custom of crucifixion ws to let the body hang there til it rotted. Yet the Romans allowed that body to be taken down and laid away in some honor.
There are recorded instances of victims being pardoned by Rome, even when they were hanging on the cross. Some recovered others did not.
The recorded Gospel is subject to removal in time from the events. The public knowledge of Roman crucifixion in Palestine was changed drastically after the fall of Jerusalem approximately 70 AD. At that time rebellious Palestinians were crucified in the hundreds from the walls.
God kept His promise to Jesus, and spared Him the worst of it by taking up His spirit so quickly. To the people it appeared Jesus had died upon the cross, but the Spirit of Jesus was taken up to God. This satisfies the Qur'anic description and metaphor, it satisfies the Gospel. Therefore the verses are reconciled.
If that doesn't satisfy you, it doesn't. Suck it up. We're not dealing with forensic evidence here, we're just dealing with scripture. Scripture does not ask anyone to accept it.
If there were not many levels of understanding, it would not be the Word of God. The will of God does not need to be understood literally, it just is what it is.
Regards,
Scottt
And who was that man who appeared to his disciples after they HEARD that Jesus Christ died?
"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself(I am the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 24:39-40
What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? That he was a spirit? What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is I MYSELF!" Can't you see? "For a SPIRIT ..." any spirit, has "NO flesh and bones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have to convince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone will acknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!
Jesus was telling his disciples, when he said: "Behold my HANDS and my FEET", that the body he wanted them to see, feel and touch was not a SPIRITUAL body, nor a METAMORPHOSED body, nor a RESURRECTED body. Because a resurrected "body" becomes spiritualised!
by the way, you should have taken a look at any performance for crucifiction because you will notice that they weren't putiing any nail in thier feet at that time but the hands.
so we know now that he didn't mean to tell them he has been nailed by looking to his hands and feets but to see that he was alive not a ghost or spirit and the proof is:
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones ( you calaimed i'm a spirit but i'm not ), as you see me have. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 24:39-40
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Scott the Quran says very clearly he did not die. Die is the key word here and then he raised him up to Himself.Popeyesay said:
Now if they say Jesus is God. Are they saying he raised himself up to Himself. the Texts will never reconcile they are different. You have to see that, maybe you can reconcile their texts within themselves because they can be changed and altered. Islam cannot.
I asked you to reconcile all the matters. that is a reconciliation. there must be an agreement or compromise on what is said and laid out.
the Quran says no other religion other then Islam is going to be accepted, how do we reconcile when they come with something else.
The Quran says Jesus is not the son of Allah (literally - begotten) the Bible otherwise.
The Quran says Jesus did not die on the cross and he did not die. they believer otherwise.
The Quran says to not worship anything but God, yet they worship Jesus because they believe he is God when Jesus says contrary (not going into the fact they need reconciliation within themselves in this issue)
the Quran says they (non-muslims,christians,and jews) changed the word of Allah, they killed the Messengers and prophets, they are arrogant, and they deny the Quran and the Finality of the Messenger of Allah Muhammed as being the last and final messenger so they according to it will be in Hellfire forever.
Reconcile these issues.
Also the Bible says Allah is one and besides Him there is no saviour Isaiah 43:10 they say Jesus is God and he is apart of a trinity. They say jesus is god, and the bible in Number 23:19 says otherwise.
they say he is the son of god the bible does not say that in the geneology of jesus Matt 1:1, Luke 3:21 i believe. so reconcile the text within itself first, maybe you and others should try to get that straight first before you start trying to reconcile two books which will never be fully reconciled hence no reconciliation.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
According to you or to the testimony of the bible. they stuck a spear in his side. how long can a man, yeah i said man hold on before the Angel of death takes him.
and this is even if you believe this because as myself, truth and others have said this is a biblical dogma. We do not think this is true. Besides read any scholars lecture over the issue. It is not as clear as you claim. there are disagreements among christian scholars as to whether it went down the way they said. because of again, the alteration and non preservation of Allah's word whom he entrusted to these people.
I thought it was god praying according to our trinitarian friends or those who accept the methodology of the trinity.
It was because he was jewish, the jews did this NOT THE ROMANS remember Pilat washed his hands of the whole thing. It was the Sadduccees along with some Pharisee who did this. and what is the tradition of the jews concerning this now. Now if he was hung up there friday then what is the next day for the Jews. and what does that mean exactly? I think you know enough about Jewish tradition to know the significance of the Sabbath to them especially at that time.
Why are you bringin up things after the fact.
How? THE QURAN SAYS VERY CLEARLY THEY CRUCIFIED HIM NOT THEY KILLED HIM NOT. THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANS STATE THIS IS THE CASE.
YOU ARE CRAZY IF YOU THINK THIS IS RECONCILED. YOU SAY BECAUSE HE WENT UP TO GOD THE VERSE IS RECONCILED. MAYBE IF YOU TAKE EVERYTHING ELSE OUT AND SAY OH. GOD TOOK HIM UP THERE THAT'S IT AND THE QURAN SAYS IT TO. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER VERSES? RECONCILIATION OF A GIVEN TEXT IS NOT DONE THROUGH ONE PART OF A GIVNE VERSE. YOU ARE TAKING ONE PART OF A VERSE TRYING TO RECONCILE SOMETHING BASED ON THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE STORY BEING REPRESENTED.
thats like telling a story about someone and one instance in their life is alike and is not even central to the story. You say they are the same. One guy killed a guy on the way to the mall and another took his mother to lunch and then to the mall. these stories are reconciled because they both went to the mall.
Besides we all eventually will be taken to Allah. Jesus being a man is no different he just had it done according to Quran before the angel of death came, before the incident of the cross He was gone before then. now if you discuss this with those who believe in trinity you will be hard pressed to convince them.
that is not the issue, the issue at hand is if something that was given to man from God. god said it is His word and you must teach it to the people. If man took it changed it over and over again, and then taught it to people. How are they teaching God's word when man changed it to his own. they made it to what they want. And they change it regularly.
Look at the KJ who authorized this man to change his authorized version. The AV Bible, King James Version, AV 1611
King James did not and God did not, and if God or KJ did where is the evidence he was authorized.
Reconcile the texts, all of them it may be better to start with the christian texts compare them and try to reconcile the changes and alterations between themselves, before you start trying to reconcile the bible and a book which says it is the product of man and not Allah ie. the Quran
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Mujahid:
"It was because he was jewish, the jews did this NOT THE ROMANS remember Pilat washed his hands of the whole thing. It was the Sadduccees along with some Pharisee who did this. and what is the tradition of the jews concerning this now. Now if he was hung up there friday then what is the next day for the Jews. and what does that mean exactly? I think you know enough about Jewish tradition to know the significance of the Sabbath to them especially at that time. "
Nosense. It was Roman authority that condemned Him, it was Roman soldiers who executed Him. It was Roman law which allowed His body to be taken down.
If the Jews had executed jesus, they would have stone Him. The cross would not be the symbol of Christianity, it would be a pile of stones. The Romans had removed the authority of Jewish courts to execute anyone, so they had to come hat in hand to Pontius Pilate. Sure, he washed his hands, and that's a very dramatic scene, but nonetheless it was Pilate's order which crucified the Christ.
Regards,
Scott
"It was because he was jewish, the jews did this NOT THE ROMANS remember Pilat washed his hands of the whole thing. It was the Sadduccees along with some Pharisee who did this. and what is the tradition of the jews concerning this now. Now if he was hung up there friday then what is the next day for the Jews. and what does that mean exactly? I think you know enough about Jewish tradition to know the significance of the Sabbath to them especially at that time. "
Nosense. It was Roman authority that condemned Him, it was Roman soldiers who executed Him. It was Roman law which allowed His body to be taken down.
If the Jews had executed jesus, they would have stone Him. The cross would not be the symbol of Christianity, it would be a pile of stones. The Romans had removed the authority of Jewish courts to execute anyone, so they had to come hat in hand to Pontius Pilate. Sure, he washed his hands, and that's a very dramatic scene, but nonetheless it was Pilate's order which crucified the Christ.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Dear Mujahid,
You say (in all caps): "YOU ARE CRAZY IF YOU THINK THIS IS RECONCILED. YOU SAY BECAUSE HE WENT UP TO GOD THE VERSE IS RECONCILED. MAYBE IF YOU TAKE EVERYTHING ELSE OUT AND SAY OH. GOD TOOK HIM UP THERE THAT'S IT AND THE QURAN SAYS IT TO. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER VERSES? RECONCILIATION OF A GIVEN TEXT IS NOT DONE THROUGH ONE PART OF A GIVNE VERSE. YOU ARE TAKING ONE PART OF A VERSE TRYING TO RECONCILE SOMETHING BASED ON THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE STORY BEING REPRESENTED. "
Using all caps shows yelling and rage, also ill-manners and belligeremnce. It does not portray the beautiful faith of Islam in a good light to behave in such a manner.
If you don't agree with me it is no skin off my nose. You might be able to shout someone down in person, but it's a futile effort on a digital message board. Don't be angry it is beneath you. It is also ridiculous.
Regards,
Scott
You say (in all caps): "YOU ARE CRAZY IF YOU THINK THIS IS RECONCILED. YOU SAY BECAUSE HE WENT UP TO GOD THE VERSE IS RECONCILED. MAYBE IF YOU TAKE EVERYTHING ELSE OUT AND SAY OH. GOD TOOK HIM UP THERE THAT'S IT AND THE QURAN SAYS IT TO. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER VERSES? RECONCILIATION OF A GIVEN TEXT IS NOT DONE THROUGH ONE PART OF A GIVNE VERSE. YOU ARE TAKING ONE PART OF A VERSE TRYING TO RECONCILE SOMETHING BASED ON THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE STORY BEING REPRESENTED. "
Using all caps shows yelling and rage, also ill-manners and belligeremnce. It does not portray the beautiful faith of Islam in a good light to behave in such a manner.
If you don't agree with me it is no skin off my nose. You might be able to shout someone down in person, but it's a futile effort on a digital message board. Don't be angry it is beneath you. It is also ridiculous.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Dear Mujahid,
You say: "that is not the issue, the issue at hand is something that was given to man from God. God said it is His word and you must teach it to the people. If man took it changed it over and over again, and then taught it to people. How are they teaching God's word when man changed it to his own. they made it to what they want. And they change it regularly."
Do you really believe that all the knowledge of God can be contained in the scant thousands of verses of the Qur'an. The mind and Might of God are infinite. Human language is finite. God does not speak in Arabic, or English or any language. It was the Angel gabriel who told Muhammed the Qur'an. He did it in human language with all it's limitations and can never contain the sum total of knowledge which God possesses.
Regards,
Scott
You say: "that is not the issue, the issue at hand is something that was given to man from God. God said it is His word and you must teach it to the people. If man took it changed it over and over again, and then taught it to people. How are they teaching God's word when man changed it to his own. they made it to what they want. And they change it regularly."
Do you really believe that all the knowledge of God can be contained in the scant thousands of verses of the Qur'an. The mind and Might of God are infinite. Human language is finite. God does not speak in Arabic, or English or any language. It was the Angel gabriel who told Muhammed the Qur'an. He did it in human language with all it's limitations and can never contain the sum total of knowledge which God possesses.
Regards,
Scott
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
No one said I am angry you assume alot about me the caps are not bold neither are they enlarged nor was there an exclamation point at the end or one of those silly little frubals showing anger or frustration, sorry you interpreted it that way but to me it is my way of getting your attention to that particular statement it is neither rage or anything like that.. As I said before and I say it again, you are entitled to your opinion but in matters of Quran it is always referred to in terms of meaning through the Messengers context and how his companions understood it, people cannot just come along and try to change what has been established. If you gave me the bab and I gave the example before and you say this is the authentic one and someone gives me one says yours is no longer good I made corrections in this one should i accept it?
I have asked you many times to reconcile what we were discussing yet you have still not. Just admit taking each text complete in terms of totality of message there is no reconciliation for there are statements in Quran that completely discredit what some scribes have done to certain scriptures. and there are condemnations of their belief and dogma. Can you at least admit that.
Again sorry you mistook the caps I hope I explained it better for you in terms of my intention. Peace.
Mujahid
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
I believe it is what is needed as Allah said to be successful in this life and for the hereafter. The Quran is not trying to give humans all knowledge of God. It is instructing you how to fulfill the rights the Creator has upon you, and to purify your intentions to where all the things He tells you to do you do it for Him and Him alone. If he orders you to follow His Prophet then you do so. We can never get all the knowledge of Allah our minds in this state cannot handle it. Besides the purpose of our creation was not to learn all we can about Allah. Our purpose is to worship Him and worship Him alone. To submit to His commands and orders to direct all praise, glorification, prayers, supplication to Him.Popeyesays said:
Some knowledge is for Allah Himself as the Messenger of Allah said when they asked him about the soul, to give them the knowledge of the soul and he said that knowledge is for Allah. Are you told when you are going to die. well that knowledge is with Allah so why do we not have it. Because it is not ours to give. We just accept the True unchanged, unaltered, protected and cherished words of Allah and do what it tells us for it has the knowledge as I said before to give us success in this life and the hereafter.
Why do I believe this? Because it is what Allah says and His Messenger Muhammed peace be upon him affirmed it. And his companions and accepted it and lived it. they lived the Quran and Hadith and are the criterion to see how success can be given through the submission to Allah. Allah will take the weakest nation and turn them into the inheriters of the world. That is what it is and does the evidence is all there you just need to know where to look and have someone teach it to you.
peace.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
That the Prophets and Messengers of God all know far more than They are allowed to reveal is obvious. Each speaks not as He wills, but as God wills.
The essential difference between us is that I deeply believe that knowledge is nver complete and that new Messengers must come to mankind. I believe Judgement Day is something other than you expect. And I believe that God does not inflict pubnishment upon His Messengers, but man is capable of doing so. And that God alone possesses absolute truth, and such truth is beyond my grasp.
These are not arbitrary beliefs for either of us. We have arrived at our beliefs the hard way, by studying, pondering and praying. We should not expect to change each other's minds.
Regards,
Scott
The essential difference between us is that I deeply believe that knowledge is nver complete and that new Messengers must come to mankind. I believe Judgement Day is something other than you expect. And I believe that God does not inflict pubnishment upon His Messengers, but man is capable of doing so. And that God alone possesses absolute truth, and such truth is beyond my grasp.
These are not arbitrary beliefs for either of us. We have arrived at our beliefs the hard way, by studying, pondering and praying. We should not expect to change each other's minds.
Regards,
Scott
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
May Allah give you hidayah, Salam.Popeyesays said:
So sorry for the confusion, but I misread your first post. Thank you for the great link, we do share the same understanding of the crucifixion event, that's well and good. unfortunately that's about all we agree on
There is sharp disagreement between the two viewpoints you proffer, as a matter of fact I can't see how one could reconcile them, ever.
There is no doubt Scripture testifies to the physical resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Like I said the eyewitness testimony very firmly insists that He died on the cross, arose from death and appeared to the Twelve and hundreds of others. He emphasized his physicality. When asked if he were a spirit or ghost he firmly replied in the negative. He insisted upon being seen eating and drinking. He had Thomas touch his wounds to confirm that he was indeed the same PHYSICAL being Thomas had always known him to be. It was Jesus in the flesh, resurrected in the flesh, who ascended to Heaven in the flesh after appearing to the witnesses.
Sorry, but i think views to the contrary are (justifiably) considered blasphemous in most of Christendom.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The fact is that we are presented with a miraculous event on two different levels, and most Christians do not see the more important level.
For a period of days the Apostles had given up their efforts on behalf of the Cause of Christ. They did not teach. They did not preach. The went about in fear of arrest and death. They neither spoke of, nor did they act on the teachings of Jesus Christ.. The only one who still believed was the Magdalene. On that morning, with the tomb empty, their faith was resurrected. Their sense of purpose and mission was resurrected and the faith of Christ -- that had begun with a few dozen believers became what it is today. From that point they spoke of, worked toward, and many found death upon the road of praising the cause of God.
Beside that of what significance is the presence for a few days of the presence of Jesus in a recognizable form?
The forgiveness and love of God had never been removed from mankind in all the ages since the spark of Creation ignited the universe. He did not die for the forgiveness of sins, God always offers forgiveness to the contrite. He died because men chose to kill Him rather than acknowledge the soverreignty of God.
The Spirit of God is in Heaven always. The SPirit of God is with us always, it does not really go anywhere, It does not really have to return. It's beyond all egress and regress descent and ascent. He came for no other person than the education of mankind, and the remembrance of God.
One man's miracle is another man's parlor trick.
Christ was here to say: "I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee! Love one another for the sake of loving God."
Without this Resurrection of Faith in the hearts of the Apostles, Christianity would have faded and died.
Regards,
Scott
maro
muslimah
Hi popsays...
i admire your character to be open minded...BTW i am muslim..
my advice to you since you believe Muhamad and you obey the same GOD.....
Just pray to GOD always and believe that only one GOD to worship my fren...
GOD is most mercifull, GOD will listen to any pray as you sincerely ask for HIS way.
and even in Islam, we are really encourage to pray for GOD hidayah. This is because we never know when GOD can take back HIS hidayah from us.
i admire your character to be open minded...BTW i am muslim..
my advice to you since you believe Muhamad and you obey the same GOD.....
Just pray to GOD always and believe that only one GOD to worship my fren...
GOD is most mercifull, GOD will listen to any pray as you sincerely ask for HIS way.
and even in Islam, we are really encourage to pray for GOD hidayah. This is because we never know when GOD can take back HIS hidayah from us.
maro
muslimah
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
welcome Kulim
May allah grant Hidayah to all of us , Ameen
Absolutely. There are many similarities in Baha`i prayer and Muslim prayer. For us we must pray daily and use one of several offered daily obligatory prayers. The shortest form of the prayer is:
"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment, to my poverty and to Thy wealth; to my powerlessness and to Thy might.There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-subsisting."
Regards,
Scott