Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Crowley]

Phil,

Of course you don't. But I will reply... The only thing I was trying to get across is how does anyone determine the right religion to follow? That is what I want to know. From my point of view, and I am not trying to **** of anyone here, but Christianity seems to say love thy brother and then go on a rampage and kill or convert anyone who doesn't believe the same things. That has been happining for years and years and no one seems to acknowledge what has happened in the past. Everyone takes the approach that God is love and that is all they are trying to show. Why are we killing innocent people in other countries? If we are a Christian nation, we should show them sympathy. I grew up a catholic and was confirmed in the church but now deny the ways that they exist.I don not believe that forcing someone to take a faith is right, and I do not believe the way we are taking over other countries is right. The whole Did Jesus die thing, is yes , he did die, for being a person who had beliefs and faught for those beliefs and that is not wrong

The revived Roman Empire (America) is hard at work.

 

[Popeyesays]

:sorry1: What you believe and what God says in the Bible don't coincide.
We have to have a canon, something to measure everything by. Our canon is the Holy Bible. Your beliefs are from Persia.
I was quoting from the Holy Bible.

Well, I would submit you are quoting Ephesians and Revelation as if those books of the Bible were something other than commentary, they are not.

As to religious canon within the Baha`i Faith:
"To them that are endowed with understanding, it is clear and manifest that, when the fire of the love of Jesus consumed the veils of Jewish limitations, and His authority was made apparent and partially enforced, He, the Revealer of the unseen Beauty, addressing one day His disciples, referred unto His passing, and, kindling in their hearts the fire of bereavement, said unto them: "I go away and come again unto you." And in another place He said: "I go and another will come, Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfil all that I have said." Both these sayings have but one meaning, were ye to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with Divine insight."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 21) this is an excerpt from the Kitab'i Iqand (The Book of Certitude) written during Baha`u'llah's sojourn in Baghdad at the beginning of His forty year imprisonment.

Regards,
Scott

 

[UnityNow101]

I really hate it when someone calls something lunacy or false without doing ANY research into the matter. That is the sort of thing that is pulling me AWAY from religion. Too many people, just as people of the past, hold fast to the teachings of their forefathers to their own destruction. Whenever the truth comes unto them, they curse it and go back to their wicked ways. Look at the Jews when Jesus arose, Christians/Jews when the beauty of Muhammed was revealed, and Christians/Jews/Muslims when the Bab and Baha'u'llah began teaching humanity.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't know about others reading along, but it seems to me a pretty serious (and hurtful) accusation to tell someone they blaspheme the Spirit.

 

[Crowley]

I don't know about others reading along, but it seems to me a pretty serious (and hurtful) accusation to tell someone they blaspheme the Spirit.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that Baha`i' s believe the Bab is the Holy Spirit.
The Muslims believe Muhammed is so it is blasphemy to think this.[/quote]

The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Please start a new thread if you wish to continue this. This is getting really off topic, though at least Muhammad gets a mention here.

 

[Popeyesays]

baha`i's believe that all of Creation is awash in the Holy Spirit. We move through an ocean of the Holy Spirit every moment of every day as eternity passes by.

Every now and again God sends a chosen Messenger to embody the Holy SPirit in such magnificence that it educates mankind and raises civilization to a higher level. Jesus was such a perfect vessel.

That Jesus was such a perfect vessel does not mean that God cannot send another.

I might suggest that you get your feet wet in the Christian forums, your beliefs will be more sheltered and protected there while you get used to an interfaith forum.

Most of us try, most of the time, to respect the spiritual search of others, even when we disagree.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Crowley]

That Jesus was such a perfect vessel does not mean that God cannot send another.

:yes: I have found in my years of serving him that he is all I need.
I don't need anything else.
Maybe you're right for me to go to another forum where everyone agrees with the Bible.
Bye Scott.

 

[Popeyesays]

:yes: I have found in my years of serving him that he is all I need.
I don't need anything else.
Maybe you're right for me to go to another forum where everyone agrees with the Bible.
Bye Scott.

Please note there is a Christian Forum right here in Abrahamic Beliefs.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

Our canon is the Holy Bible. Your beliefs are from Persia not the Bible.

You are free to believe that God's promise to Abraham only extended to one of his three wives if you like, just as we are free to believe that it extended to all of them, since text containing that promise does not outline any limits to just one of the wives

Sara - Judaiam and Christianity
Hagar - Islam
Keturah - Babis and Baha'is (3 of her 6 sons, the tribes of the Medes, ended up in Persia).

But I do think we should probably get back to the topic at hand.

I've said it before -- my personal belief is that the whole problem with Muslims thinking that Jesus didn't die is more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

Neither Muslims nor Christians believe you can kill a soul anyway.

As a practical matter, I've never understood why anyone would think they might convince a Christian to even read the Qu'ran if their approach is to tell that Christian that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross and their texts are worthless.

 

[MBones]

600 years??? Where did that come from? The earth is over 2 billion years old. What about that fact?

 

[blueman]

Remember, the Quran was written almost 700 years after the life ofJesus and the New Testament Gospels and Epistles were written well within the lifetime of the witnesses of siad events. When you apply all the applicable steps that histioians and scholars undertake in determining authenticity, which one would you believe to be more credible? Jesus did not only die, but God raise Him from the dead. Jesus predicted His death a few times prior to the actual event and the Quran depicts Jesus as a great prophet. Now if He did not really die, would that not make Him a false prophet which would impact to some level the credibility of the Quran?

 

[Popeyesays]

600 years??? Where did that come from? The earth is over 2 billion years old. What about that fact?

Mankind is not two billion years old--that we can tell.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Remember, the Quran was written almost 700 years after the life ofJesus and the New Testament Gospels and Epistles were written well within the lifetime of the witnesses of siad events. When you apply all the applicable steps that histioians and scholars undertake in determining authenticity, which one would you believe to be more credible? Jesus did not only die, but God raise Him from the dead. Jesus predicted His death a few times prior to the actual event and the Quran depicts Jesus as a great prophet. Now if He did not really die, would that not make Him a false prophet which would impact to some level the credibility of the Quran?

Jesus conquered death in much more palpable terms.

Yes, the body died on the cross; but what was raised?

The Spirit of Christ could not die, it was raised to God.

The Cause of Christ could not die, it was rejuvenated in the hearts of His followers.

The flesh is dust.

"10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
(King James Bible, Hebrews)

"34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
(King James Bible, Job)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Yəhošafat]

Jesus conquered death in much more palpable terms.

Yes, the body died on the cross; but what was raised?

The Spirit of Christ could not die, it was raised to God.

The Cause of Christ could not die, it was rejuvenated in the hearts of His followers.

The flesh is dust.

"10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
(King James Bible, Hebrews)

"34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
(King James Bible, Job)

Regards,
Scott

The Body of Jesus Christ rose from the dead, not just his spirit:
Jesus testifies after his ressurection:
Lu 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus' flesh is not dust. Jesus did not remain in his tomb, but the Gospels proclaim that early on the third day Jesus rose from the Dead!

"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.[And the Angel proclaimed] He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead..." Matthew 28:2,6,7.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The Body of Jesus Christ rose from the dead, not just his spirit:
Jesus testifies after his ressurection:
Lu 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus' flesh is not dust. Jesus did not remain in his tomb, but the Gospels proclaim that early on the third day Jesus rose from the Dead!

"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.[And the Angel proclaimed] He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead..." Matthew 28:2,6,7.

OK....So are we done with this thread as well?

So he was "risen"......

Can we say for certain he was dead and was raised from the dead or was it made to appear that he was dead???? And because they sealed the tomb the angels opened the tomb so that this very much alive Jesus could exit.

Who really knows......?

 

[Popeyesays]

OK....So are we done with this thread as well?

So he was "risen"......

Can we say for certain he was dead and was raised from the dead or was it made to appear that he was dead???? And because they sealed the tomb the angels opened the tomb so that this very much alive Jesus could exit.

Who really knows......?

One would hope, if given the last word, some might let this exhausted thread say, "Father, Father! Why hast Thou forsaken me?" and let it give up the ghost.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Jesus died a real death.

That is an interesting perspective but not a Biblical one depending on what you mean by real. If you mean that Jesus died the way you or I die that is not the case.Jesus leaving the body before it died makes it a different death from ours.

 

[Muffled]

I think that we are arguing over something of very little importance. What difference does it truly make whether Jesus was boldily raised or spiritually raised into Heaven? We know that flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, which would suggest that no mortal body will go into Heaven while veiled in flesh and blood. Either way, we know that the glorious Jesus Christ ascended unto God...Whether that was bodily or spiritually.

The fact that God sits beside Himself ie Jesus sits on the right side of the father, indicates that Jesus is still in the body otherwise there would be no juxtaposition but only the spirit of God everywhere.

You are confused. The Kingdom of God is not equivalent to Heaven. The Kingdom of God is spiritual. Flesh and blood has no part in a spiritual kingdom no matter where it is. The body of Jesus at ascension is immortal. Heaven does not ordinarily contain matter but there is nothing about Heaven to preclude it. I am not totally convinced that Jesus is spending all this time in Heaven given the fact that He is preparing the Holy City, New Jerusalem for us. Does anyone have any scripture on that? I don't recollect but it may be that Jesus made a personal appearance in Heaven but that does not necessitate His staying there.

 

[Muffled]

Rose from the dead? Yes, actually--I agree, but he DIED first, right? He was born of woman, He was a mortal man, all mortal men die--Jesus was different in the regard that His Spirit rose directly to heaven and returned to earth for a period of time (in a sense).

Then when 600 years had passed and it came time for God's will to be made evident to man again, That self-same Spirit came again as a mortal man in the person of Muhammad. 1,260 years after that the self-same Spirit returned embodied in the Bab, and but nineteen years later, again to serve the will of God Baha`u'llah was that self-same Spirit.

Regards,
Scott

Do you have any evidence from any scripture that Jesus left His body to reincarnate as these people? Has any of these people claimed to be reincarnations of Jesus or claimed to be incarnations of God?

 

[Popeyesays]

Do you have any evidence from any scripture that Jesus left His body to reincarnate as these people? Has any of these people claimed to be reincarnations of Jesus or claimed to be incarnations of God?

This isn't 'reincarnation' in the sense people understand the term. Muhammad seems to lay the claim to be "The Comforter". The bab lays the claim to be the Imam Mahdi awaited by the followers of Muhammad. baha`u'llah claims to be He Whom God Will Make Manifest proclaimed by the Bab--also the Shah Bahram, the Fifth Buddha, the return of Christ in The Glory of the Father.

To ponder:

1) All the Great Prophets are the Self-Same Spirit
2) All the Prophets are individual men born in different times and cultures.
3) All are the promised Manifestations of the preceding Dispensantion.

All at the same time.

"Furthermore, it is evident to thee that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!"[1] For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath 153 Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Ali. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but one."[2] Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad our last, Muhammad our all."
[1 Qur'án 2:285.]
[2 Qur'án 54:50.]
It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring 154 in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He verily speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established. Inasmuch as the return of the Prophets of God, as attested by verses and traditions, hath been conclusively demonstrated, the return of their chosen ones also is therefore definitely proven. This return is too manifest in itself to require any evidence or proof. For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, inasmuch as previous to his belief in God and his acceptance of His Manifestation, he had set his affections on the things of the world, such as attachment to earthly goods, to 155 wife, children, food, drink, and the like, so much so that in the day-time and in the night season his one concern had been to amass riches and procure for himself the means of enjoyment and pleasure. Aside from these things, before his partaking of the reviving waters of faith, he had been so wedded to the traditions of his forefathers, and so passionately devoted to the observance of their customs and laws, that he would have preferred to suffer death rather than violate one letter of those superstitious forms and manners current amongst his people. Even as the people have cried: "Verily we found our fathers with a faith, and verily, in their footsteps we follow."[1]"
[1 Qur'án 43:22.]
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 152)

Regards,
Scott