Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[KWED]

Are you saying there is no history mentioned in the Quran!

No. It's mostly stories about the past (although ho much you can call "history" is questionable).
But it's supposed to be god's final attempt at providing mankind with the perfect guide for life - so it makes sense that anything in there must have some relevance to life today.

 

[KWED]

And your point?

You claimed that ISIS recruits were not experts on Islam. I pointed out that most Muslims aren't experts on Islam.
So the question is actually - what was was your point?

 

[RAYYAN]

Sorry, 9:61, not 9:62.
Surely not that hard to figure out.
"And those who abuse the Messenger of Allah - for them is a painful punishment." Quran 9:61

Sure, Show me where is the command to Muslims to do any harm, there is none

No it doesn't. it says...
"Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world

Clearly referring to this world. They are cursed by Allah.[/QUOTE]

Ok, they are cursed by God
then? your point?

That does not say where the punishment will take place, but he has already said that they are cursed in this world, so your claim that no action is to be taken in this world has no foundation.
Remember we are seeing if the Quran could be interpreted by those disaffected Muslim youths in Gaza or the banlieues of Paris as justifying attacks on people who insult Muhammad.

They are cursed by God
It is God's action, not humans

Sunan Abi Dawud 4362 - Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) - كتاب الحدود - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4362

Oh, please
read your own link. It says this Hadith is a week hadith. no one is allowed to act upon it

Er, what? You just repeated exactly what I posted. I merely left off the list of other barbaric punishments and some more invective.
The point (which we seem to agree on) is that there verse prescribes killing for those people described.

I never said there are no verses of killing
What I am saying is, there is a reason for it like killing others

The verse says "wage war on Allah". Allah is immaterial and has no physical presence so "waging war" on him can only mean attacking the idea of him, attacking the concept of Islam.
Ibn Kathir explains that "wage war" includes "opposition, contradiction and disbelief".

Waging war on Allah means rejecting his rules, BUT, that is not it
There are three things mentioned here and the three must be present to apply this;

- wage war against Allah
- Wage war against Messenger
- trive upon earth [to cause] corruption

No. A small proportion of Muslims act on that interpretation of those verses. It is reasonable to assume that more accept those interpretations. As I pointed out, percentages in the teens claim that suicide bombings are justified. 80% of Egyptians who favour sharia believe that adulterers should be stoned to death. 50% of UK Muslims think homosexuality should be a crime. Half! You can't try to tell me that there is no support amongst ordinary Muslims for violence and intolerance against those they consider to de deserving of it.

All these examples you mentioned don't really matter because;
- These rules are applied to Muslims only like Adultery
- Islam 101 if someone is sinning behind closed doors, there is no harm to come to him unless he goes and spreads that sin in the society in society that is Muslim like homosexuality

More question begging. You are simply assuming that your interpretation is the right way. (not sure what that figure refers to).

This is the figure I remember reading some time ago
If you have another figure, you can enlight me and I will be thankful

Then you are in denial. You may not consider there to be such passages, but there are others who think there are. You are simply insisting that whatever your opinion is, is the only possible opinion. And if there is one absolute, verifiable, 100% stone cold fact about Islam - it is that there are differing opinions about what the Quran means. And everyone is convinced their is the correct one.

Remember, I am not saying that any one interpretation must be the correct one. I am simply pointing out that there are some Muslims who take the passages calling for violence at face value.
I mean though, 9:61 is pretty explicit - "A painful punishment for those who abuse Muhammad". How can you claim that it isn't saying that there is a painful punishment for abusing Muhammad?

Fair enough
Yes, I agree there are people who interpret the Quran differently, what I am saying is, is it a small percentage of people who have weak Islamic education and knowledge. And I agree, that is a problem.

Quran 9:61 is talking about the punishment of God, not an action to be taken by people. Anyone who is familiar with the Quran knows that

 

[RAYYAN]

You claimed that ISIS recruits were not experts on Islam. I pointed out that most Muslims aren't experts on Islam.
So the question is actually - what was was your point?

ISIS go around killing people with the claim that is what the Quran says
A lot of Muslims who don't know much about the Quran don't go around killing people
So, what is your point bringing "other Muslims who don't know the Quran" thing

 

[RAYYAN]

No. It's mostly stories about the past (although ho much you can call "history" is questionable).
But it's supposed to be god's final attempt at providing mankind with the perfect guide for life - so it makes sense that anything in there must have some relevance to life today.

We don't tell god how to write his book
There is Islamic history in it. Deal with it

 

[KWED]

That is because Islamic history is rich,

We are taking about the Quran. There was no "Islamic history" at the time the Quran was being written.
And the history of the world is "rich" so not sure what point you think you are making.

many tried to take it down but, of course failed miserably LOL

Are you saying that the various Islamic empires never had any setbacks or defeats, and that they still exist today? Oh dear. They not teach history at your school either?
And once again, why are you claiming a culture of imperial aggression and subjugation as a thing to be celebrated? Reasonable people now realise that empires were dark and brutal, with much to be ashamed of.

You have no argument

 

[RAYYAN]

No. It is a fact that you remember reading something. Whether or not what you recall is itself a fact is a different issue.

Then provide the fact (Number) if you can

Er, yeah. They not teaching maths at your school?

I was not disputing that

So despite previously claiming the there were insignificant numbers of Muslims prepared to engage in violence against their perceived enemies, you are now celebrating having an army of 17 million jihaddists. Wow!

Please don't put words into my mouth

And the reason for the large numbers of Muslims is the spread of the Islamic empires in medieval times. Kinda like how half the world is Christian. Empire and conquest. Nothing to be proud of.
Islam is growing faster than other religions because Muslim women generally have more children than any other group. At a time when overpopulation is one of the biggest crises facing the world, that is not a good thing either!

I am proud because they are led to the truth

 

[KWED]

Don't be silly. You know I don't mean that

But that is the reality of it. People can and do find passages to suit their agenda.

Again, 9:61 has no action to be taken by any human, it is talking about the punishment of God

There is nothing in that verse that says the "painful punishment is only in the afterlife. There is also nothing that says humans are not to inflict that punishment.
You are simply wrong there.
It just says that whoever abuses Muhammad will be painfully punished. That could mean by god or by man or by both. It doesn't say, so you can't say!

Who appointed you to analyze the Quran and say what it means?

More irony!
I am merely pointing out what it says.
You are the one claiming that it means something other than what it says (as you showed with 9:61 above).

For me, I am a simple man who understand the Quran and learned it all of my life

So you admit it is just your opinion. So why do you insist that your opinion is right and the opinions of scholars are wrong?
Look, I accept that the Quran is often ambiguous, vague and contradictory, so much of it needs interpretation as it doesn't make sense taken literally (or people don't like what it says taken literally ). My point is that by definition, no one can show that their interpretation must be the right one. It is all just assertion and opinion.

 

[RAYYAN]

But that is the reality of it. People can and do find passages to suit their agenda.

Sure. But that is not the problem of the Quran. It is the problem of those people.
The Quran says
"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

There is nothing in that verse that says the "painful punishment is only in the afterlife. There is also nothing that says humans are not to inflict that punishment.
You are simply wrong there.
It just says that whoever abuses Muhammad will be painfully punished. That could mean by god or by man or by both. It doesn't say, so you can't say!

No, you are wrong
There is no command here. When god wants us to do something, there should be a command. It is a simple English man

More irony!
I am merely pointing out what it says.
You are the one claiming that it means something other than what it says (as you showed with 9:61 above).

Then you should understand a simple English
No command means no action to be taken

So you admit it is just your opinion. So why do you insist that your opinion is right and the opinions of scholars are wrong?
Look, I accept that the Quran is often ambiguous, vague and contradictory, so much of it needs interpretation as it doesn't make sense taken literally (or people don't like what it says taken literally ). My point is that by definition, no one can show that their interpretation must be the right one. It is all just assertion and opinion.

Did my opinion contradict the opinion of any scholar? I didn't know that
Show with with your example of Quran 9:61 that contradiction

 

[KWED]

Sure, Show me where is the command to Muslims to do any harm, there is none

Really?
2:191, 4:34, 4:89, 5:33, 8:12, 9:5 - and that's just off the top of my head. And it doesn't include all the references to fighting people because you will probably complain that fighting someone doesn't mean harming them.

Ok, they are cursed by God
then? your point?

The rest of the verse says there will be a humiliating punishment for them.

It is God's action, not humans

Again, doesn't say that. You are forcing your own agenda onto it. It just says there will be punishment.

Oh, please
read your own link. It says this Hadith is a week hadith. no one is allowed to act upon it

It's still a hadith. I bet you're happy to use eat hadith when pushing the "Aisha was 16" argument. Also, the bit in bold has nothing to do with hadith science. You just added that.

But anywho, here's a sahih one where a Muslim kills the mother of his children for insulting Muhammad. He said "no retaliation is payable for her blood.". Sunan Abi Dawud 4361 - Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) - كتاب الحدود - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

I never said there are no verses of killing

You just said..."Show me where is the command to Muslims to do any harm, there is none"
Now you are admitting that you already admitted that there are verses in the Quran that command doing harm (I assume that you accept killing constitutes "doing hard"?)

What I am saying is, there is a reason for it like killing others

Well, duh! Of course there are reasons. No one is claiming that the Quran has any passages that say "Just kill for no reason".

Waging war on Allah means rejecting his rules, BUT, that is not it
There are three things mentioned here and the three must be present to apply this;
- wage war against Allah
- Wage war against Messenger
- trive upon earth [to cause] corruption

So if someone stood up in the town square and was shouting "There is no god, Muhammad was a liar, no not follow Islam!", then killing them would be justified by the Quran.

All these examples you mentioned don't really matter because;
- These rules are applied to Muslims only like Adultery
- Islam 101 if someone is sinning behind closed doors, there is no harm to come to him unless he goes and spreads that sin in the society in society that is Muslim like homosexuality

This kind of excuse always pops up "It doesn't matter if Muslims support stoning for adultery because it doesn't actually happen much."
Still doesn't make either stoning or support for it ok. It is medieval barbarism.

This is the figure I remember reading some time ago
If you have another figure, you can enlight me and I will be thankful

I quoted you much higher figures for Muslims supporting fundamentalist interpretations and supporting violence.

what I am saying is, is it a small percentage of people who have weak Islamic education and knowledge. And I agree, that is a problem.

But consider Al Baghdadi. He was highly qualified in Islamic law and Quran studies, yet he favoured a traditional, literalist interpretation. And there are many more.
Remember that in genuine discussions about this, apologists don't claim that there are no violent, intolerant passages, just that they aren't meant to be taken literally.

Quran 9:61 is talking about the punishment of God, not an action to be taken by people. Anyone who is familiar with the Quran knows that

And yet you cannot show anything to support your claim. The Quran makes no mention of it. You merely assume it means that because that's what you want it to mean. If you just read it, it simply says that there is a painful punishment for those who abuse Muhammad, so you can't insist that anyone who assumes it means in this world, is wrong. You can only disagree with them.

 

[KWED]

ISIS go around killing people with the claim that is what the Quran says

The Quran does say to kill people. You just claim that ISIS are misinterpreting the passages about killing.

A lot of Muslims who don't know much about the Quran don't go around killing people
So, what is your point bringing "other Muslims who don't know the Quran" thing

It was your point. What were you trying to say by claiming that some ISIS recruits had little Islamic knowledge?
I was just pointing out that knowledge or lack of it seems irrelevant.

 

[KWED]

We don't tell god how to write his book
There is Islamic history in it. Deal with it

Again, you are not responding to my points.

 

[KWED]

Then provide the fact (Number) if you can

Whuh?

Please don't put words into my mouth

You seemed pleasantly surprised rather than horrified.

I am proud because they are led to the truth

You are proud because large swathes of North Africa and Asia were invaded and subjugated by Muslim imperialists?
Or you are proud because millions of children are indoctrinated into Islam?

 

[RAYYAN]

Whuh?

You seemed pleasantly surprised rather than horrified.

You are proud because large swathes of North Africa and Asia were invaded and subjugated by Muslim imperialists?
Or you are proud because millions of children are indoctrinated into Islam?

Your whole post here is putting words into my mouth. I will ignore it

 

[RAYYAN]

Again, you are not responding to my points.

I am responding to your point
If there is a command in that verse, show me
You can't show me because there is none

 

[RAYYAN]

The Quran does say to kill people. You just claim that ISIS are misinterpreting the passages about killing.

It was your point. What were you trying to say by claiming that some ISIS recruits had little Islamic knowledge?
I was just pointing out that knowledge or lack of it seems irrelevant.

You brought up that other Muslims don't know the Quran
So, I am confused with the point you are trying to make

 

[RAYYAN]

Really?
2:191, 4:34, 4:89, 5:33, 8:12, 9:5 - and that's just off the top of my head. And it doesn't include all the references to fighting people because you will probably complain that fighting someone doesn't mean harming them.

Wow, wow wow
Are we changing the topic now?
You said there is a command to harm people in 9:61
I am asking you to show me the command
We can talk about the other verses next time

The rest of the verse says there will be a humiliating punishment for them.

Again, doesn't say that. You are forcing your own agenda onto it. It just says there will be punishment.

No, I asked you to give an opinion of 9:61 that says to harm other
You couldn't and you resourced other verses
You can just say "I can't" and earn my respect and friendship

It's still a hadith. I bet you're happy to use eat hadith when pushing the "Aisha was 16" argument. Also, the bit in bold has nothing to do with hadith science. You just added that.

Big, big mistake on your part
Weak hadith can't be used. This is Islam 101
Dude, if you are going to debate against Islam, learn a bit about it

See my reply to you regarding Aisha, I never used a hadith

I will continue tomorrow
I have to go home now

 

[RAYYAN]

But anywho, here's a sahih one where a Muslim kills the mother of his children for insulting Muhammad. He said "no retaliation is payable for her blood.". Sunan Abi Dawud 4361 - Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) - كتاب الحدود - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

I am sorry, I should have been specific
Find me a hadith that is authentic in Bukhari or Muslim (The two most authentic books)
Don't quote any random hadith you find

 

[RAYYAN]

You just said..."Show me where is the command to Muslims to do any harm, there is none"
Now you are admitting that you already admitted that there are verses in the Quran that command doing harm (I assume that you accept killing constitutes "doing hard"?)

Sorry, we are talking about 9:61 where you claim there is a command, I am telling you there is no command in that verse

Well, duh! Of course there are reasons. No one is claiming that the Quran has any passages that say "Just kill for no reason".

Good. You understand that

So if someone stood up in the town square and was shouting "There is no god, Muhammad was a liar, no not follow Islam!", then killing them would be justified by the Quran.

not really. I know this will open the topic of apostates in Islam
I appreciate if you can make another thread

This kind of excuse always pops up "It doesn't matter if Muslims support stoning for adultery because it doesn't actually happen much."
Still doesn't make either stoning or support for it ok. It is medieval barbarism.

That is your opinion which means nothing of course
A Muslims is abide bu Islamic law, take it all or leave it all
You as a non Muslim, these rules don't affect you

I quoted you much higher figures for Muslims supporting fundamentalist interpretations and supporting violence.

I am sorry if I missed that

But consider Al Baghdadi. He was highly qualified in Islamic law and Quran studies, yet he favoured a traditional, literalist interpretation. And there are many more.
Remember that in genuine discussions about this, apologists don't claim that there are no violent, intolerant passages, just that they aren't meant to be taken literally.

And yet you cannot show anything to support your claim. The Quran makes no mention of it. You merely assume it means that because that's what you want it to mean. If you just read it, it simply says that there is a painful punishment for those who abuse Muhammad, so you can't insist that anyone who assumes it means in this world, is wrong. You can only disagree with them.

Sorry, It is you who can not support your claim
You said there is a command in 9:61 to harm others, I am asking you to
1. Show me where that command is (Of course you can't) it is a verb BTW. don't make me teach you English and it is not my first language OR
2. Show me where qualified scholar said that verse is a command to harm others

You didn't show any of these, so, stop saying I can't support my claim

 

[stevecanuck]

That's right !
If oppressors attack our nation, it is our duty to be relentless.

In the days of the first Muslims, NOBODY attacked the Arabian Peninsula. NO --- BODY.

Islam's wars of aggression occurred off the peninsula. The holy land, Egypt, northern Africa, Iberia, etc. were ALL wars of pure aggression and ALL in accordance with the Qur'an's dictates. You know that's true.