• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Quran is free of errors

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The process that continues to drive mountains up, specifically plate collision, also continues to generate earthquakes. This is evident from the understating I presented from a primary school level textbook on the subject. That ongoing plate collision continues to both drive up mountains, while simultaneously generating earthquake activity, show the ineffectual nature of mountains for the purpose of preventing earthquakes.

Response: Exactly. But the point is this,"is the earth shaking you as we speak"? No! Therefore there comes a point in which the shakes of the earthquake that cause us to move eventually stop. I'm asking the simple question, "what prevented the quakes from contuining?"

The problem I see with your response Fatihah, is the assumption that there would be any reason for the earth to be shaking. The tectonic plates move VERY slowly, so the idea that we would feel the earth shaking is erroneous to begin with. Here is the question for you. Why would we feel the ground shaking beneath our feet?

Your answer to this will be very interesting and will show the extent of your knowledge on this subject. My assertion is that your (and other Muslims) argument is based on a false assumption. So please, take the ball and run with it. Explain, precisely WHY we would feel the ground shaking without mountains acting as pegs.

I think YOU have a lot of explaining to do.
 
Last edited:
Response: Exactly. But the point is this,"is the earth shaking you as we speak"? No! Therefore there comes a point in which the shakes of the earthquake that cause us to move eventually stop. I'm asking the simple question, "what prevented the quakes from contuining?"
Well, I do not know much about this subject, but nothing prevented it from happening, it stopped as a result of the vibrations getting weaker and weaker till it was virtually non-existent.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I have not read every single post in this thread, so I dont know if the discovery of the Sana'a manuscripts in Yemen in 1972 has been brought up.
we have started discussing it in thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/80184-does-bible-even-exist-5.html


Sana'a manuscripts / What Is the Koran? - The Atlantic (January 1999) (quote from sources found below)

some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God."
More than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Qur'ans have been flattened, cleaned, treated, sorted, and assembled. They await further examination in Yemen's House of Manuscripts. Yet that is something Islamic authorities seem unwilling to allow. Puin suggests, "They want to keep this thing low-profile, as we do, although for different reasons."

a 3 minute video on youtube discussing the Sana'a manuscripts, I apologize for the semi-provocative title of the video, I couldnt find a more academic title on youtube:
YouTube - Proof that the Koran of today is different from the original
 

McBell

Unbound
Response: I'm reading a statement. Where's the proof?
Please.
Anyone paying even partial attention to this thread can see the proof in most of your posts.
Of course, you will not see it because you have chosen to turn a blind eye to all truth that you think hurts your position.
Again, the proof is in most of your posts.

grow up mestemia.
Just stating the facts.
Facts that your posts clearly show to any one paying even partial attention to the thread.
"You can lead the willfully ignorant to the truth, but you cannot make them see it."
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
The problem I see with your response Fatihah, is the assumption that there would be any reason for the earth to be shaking. The tectonic plates move VERY slowly, so the idea that we would feel the earth shaking is erroneous to begin with. Here is the question for you. Why would we feel the ground shaking beneath our feet?

Your answer to this will be very interesting and will show the extent of your knowledge on this subject. My assertion is that your (and other Muslims) argument is based on a false assumption. So please, take the ball and run with it. Explain, precisely WHY we would feel the ground shaking without mountains acting as pegs.

I think YOU have a lot of explaining to do.

Response: Actually, the problem is that you somehow comprehended that I said something in my response that I've never said. I never made any assumption that there would be any reason for the earth to be shaking.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Well, I do not know much about this subject, but nothing prevented it from happening, it stopped as a result of the vibrations getting weaker and weaker till it was virtually non-existent.

Response: Well, since you've admittedly acknowldge that you do not have much knowledge of the subject, I would only suggest that you look up the answer and see for sure if it is in fact what you say it is.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Please.
Anyone paying even partial attention to this thread can see the proof in most of your posts.
Of course, you will not see it because you have chosen to turn a blind eye to all truth that you think hurts your position.
Again, the proof is in most of your posts.


Just stating the facts.
Facts that your posts clearly show to any one paying even partial attention to the thread.
"You can lead the willfully ignorant to the truth, but you cannot make them see it."

Response: In other words, this response is just a longer version of you saying that you have no proof of your statement.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
I have not read every single post in this thread, so I dont know if the discovery of the Sana'a manuscripts in Yemen in 1972 has been brought up.
we have started discussing it in thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/80184-does-bible-even-exist-5.html


Sana'a manuscripts / What Is the Koran? - The Atlantic (January 1999) (quote from sources found below)



a 3 minute video on youtube discussing the Sana'a manuscripts, I apologize for the semi-provocative title of the video, I couldnt find a more academic title on youtube:
YouTube - Proof that the Koran of today is different from the original

Response: You see, this video is lacking the history of islam and how the verses were revealed. Secondly, what you have to do is try to learn islam from the muslims scholars. I say this based on your post as well as the video. You appear to have a misconception about islam which is why you may take the video to perhaps be proof that the qur'an has been changed from the original by man but what you are actually watching is proof of the qur'an's authenticity. To know what I mean, why don't you briefly summarize what you learned from the video and insha'Allah I will help you fill in the rest.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Response: You see, this video is lacking the history of islam and how the verses were revealed. Secondly, what you have to do is try to learn islam from the muslims scholars.
Why would I do that? I much rather learn from scholars of Islam, who may or may not be Muslim. to illustrate this, when I study several issues which are at the core of Judaism, I study them both from people who may be traditional AND from atheists/secular scholars.

I say this based on your post as well as the video. You appear to have a misconception about islam
Im curious to know what misconception you believe I hold about Islam?
which is why you may take the video to perhaps be proof that the qur'an has been changed from the original by man
to be honest I have no need to prove it to anyone, because at the academic world at large around the world, no sacred text of any religion is considered to be 'the original word of God'.
but what you are actually watching is proof of the qur'an's authenticity. To know what I mean, why don't you briefly summarize what you learned from the video and insha'Allah I will help you fill in the rest.
If you are not a scholar, than I hope I am not going to be preceived as arrogant in saying that I doubt you have concrete insight to share with me on this specific matter. although I may be opened for further discussion. as long as the discussion is not going to be based on your side on assertions based on tradition alone, or pseudo-science.
 
Last edited:

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Why would I do that? I much rather learn from scholars of Islam, who may or may not be Muslim. to illustrate this, when I study several issues which are at the core of Judaism, I study them both from people who may be traditional AND from atheists/secular scholars.

Response: If you do that, then you would only know one source of evidence. We as muslims claim that the qur'an has never been changed. So in order to understand this view of muslims, it would be more logical to ask a muslim scholar how they've drawn this conclusion as well as looking at evidence of non-muslim scholars.

Quote: Caladan
Im curious to know what misconception you believe I hold about Islam?
to be honest I have no need to prove it to anyone, because at the academic world at large around the world, no sacred text of any religion is considered to be 'the original word of God'.

Response: Then what was the purpose of your post? If it is not to prove that the qur'an is not in its original form then why did you post a video from youtube that says just that?


Quote: Caladan
If you are not a scholar, than I hope I am not going to be preceived as arrogant in saying that I doubt you have concrete insight to share with me on this specific matter. although I may be opened for further discussion. as long as the discussion is not going to be based on your side on assertions based on tradition alone, or pseudo-science.

Response: I do not give myself any title. However, I do believe that I have the knowledge, especially on this particular subject.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Response: If you do that, then you would only know one source of evidence.
You need to go back to my post, and see that I have planly stated that I am interested in the work of scholars of Islam, the Muslim ones, and the non-Muslim.

We as muslims claim that the qur'an has never been changed. So in order to understand this view of muslims, it would be more logical to ask a muslim scholar how they've drawn this conclusion as well as looking at evidence of non-muslim scholars.
To be honest, my first priority is to dismantle textual Infallibility in the face of religious passions around the world, the claim that it has been changed is secondary, and is a biproduct of research. I have no religious agenda in telling the Muslims that the Qur'an has been corrupted, the fact that there is a scholarly research that deals with differences between the Sana'a manuscripts and the modern version of the Qur'an is a point of interest and information and is simply part of an ongoing study that seem to point to this.



Response: Then what was the purpose of your post? If it is not to prove that the qur'an is not in its original form then why did you post a video from youtube that says just that?
My main target-crowd in this forum are people who value the exchange of information, in this spirit, I think my post is highly relevant to this thread, and can trigger a wider dialogue.

Response: I do not give myself any title. However, I do believe that I have the knowledge, especially on this particular subject.
I am positive that several of the members who take part in this thread are ready to listen, answer and debate you.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
a funny guy ey.you have a problem with me not capitalising words rEaSoN?since when did you become a perfect freak? (note a "perfect freak" is someone who wants everything perfect, just incase you don't know)you know you can be funny at times, but thats probably because it's unintentional.you should do it more often.
we can't all be smart like you darkendless. can we?
Response: And if you want to show how brilliant you are, you should be able to post comments relative to the subject, because anything otherwise will stand as evidence of you diverting the attention from the subject due to the fact that your logic to the subject is lacking. So in an effort to hide your misfortune, you post comments with the intent to direction our attention from the obvious.[/quot

Response: I never said that there was no scientific community. So your comment is quite pointless.[/q
The earth itself Fatihah. You see mass, which is composed of matter or ‘stuff’, has an
Response: First of all, what is inertia? According to your definition, it is matter that is resistant how was the earth able to move in the first place? You have a lot of explaining to do.
Response: I'm reading a statement. Where's the proof?[/quot

response: idontknowwhyyouguysthinkanyofusarestilllisteningtoyou.
itisn'tlikeyoumakesenseor ever sayanythingofvalue. Ijusthopethatastimegoesby, wecanallgettospeakforallah-justlikeyoutwo.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
You need to go back to my post, and see that I have planly stated that I am interested in the work of scholars of Islam, the Muslim ones, and the non-Muslim.


To be honest, my first priority is to dismantle textual Infallibility in the face of religious passions around the world, the claim that it has been changed is secondary, and is a biproduct of research. I have no religious agenda in telling the Muslims that the Qur'an has been corrupted, the fact that there is a scholarly research that deals with differences between the Sana'a manuscripts and the modern version of the Qur'an is a point of interest and information and is simply part of an ongoing study that seem to point to this.



My main target-crowd in this forum are people who value the exchange of information, in this spirit, I think my post is highly relevant to this thread, and can trigger a wider dialogue.


I am positive that several of the members who take part in this thread are ready to listen, answer and debate you.

Response: I admire your approach to the discussion. I myself approach the discussions on this forum to exchange information and try to draw a logical conclusion myself. My inquiry of your post was to simply understand your intentions of the post in which you have cleary made clear with this response. Glad to know we're on the same page.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
response: idontknowwhyyouguysthinkanyofusarestilllisteningtoyou.
itisn'tlikeyoumakesenseor ever sayanythingofvalue. Ijusthopethatastimegoesby, wecanallgettospeakforallah-justlikeyoutwo.

Response: The fact that you keep responding to our posts is evidence that you are still listening. As for not making sense, we are not responsible for your denial.
 

warlockc1411

New Member
My only question is, for any holy book: Which man/woman said their writings were the word of God? No one can prove their "spritual", or inner experience to anyone else, you can only KNOW for yourself. Your experience is your own; you can share it, you can try and explain it - but don't expect anyone to believe it.


I'm not trying to dispute anyone's experience; just value your own.

"there might have been a better thread for this"!
 
Last edited:

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
My only question is, for any holy book: Which man/woman said their writings were the word of God? No one can prove their "spritual", or inner experience to anyone else, you can only KNOW for yourself. Your experience is your own; you can share it, you can try and explain it - but don't expect anyone to believe it.


I'm not trying to dispute anyone's experience; just value your own.

"there might have been a better thread for this"!

Response: I agree to an extent. No one can learn the beauty of any teachings from any religion unless they actually partake in the teachings themselves. However, for some teachings, this is not necessary.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Fatihah said:
First of all, what is inertia?
Where I come from, Fatihah, we have these things called ‘schools’ where we, when we are still young, are educated about subjects like mathematics, geography, science, etc. I apologise for making the mistaken assumption that these ‘schools’ exist in cultures different from my own. I also apologise for making the mistaken assumption that your participation on this forum, proving you have access to a thing called the ‘internet’ and consequently a thing called ‘goolge’, was sufficient grounds to believe you were capable of performing an ‘internet search’. Finally, I most humbly and graciously apologise for crediting you with a desire to learn and seek out new education.
According to your definition, it is matter that is resistant to movement.
Actually, I indicated that inertia was a property of matter. From Wikipedia:
Article on inertia said:
Inertia is the resistance of an object to a change in its state of motion. The principle of inertia is one of the fundamental principles of classical physics which are used to describe the motion of matter and how it is affected by applied forces.
I duly note that, despite you having to ask what inertia was, your arrogance still allowed you to fire the insulting and ironic quip “Your statement concerning inertia ia evidence enough that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about”.
Secondly, how does the earth absorb energy?
By being in direct contact with the energy-rich material. For example, when you drop an object it falls by converting gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy. This kinetic energy is absorbed into the earth when that object comes into contact with the earth. Essentially, due to the sheer size of the earth, any such energy is greatly diluted within the earth’s mass.
Lastly, the earth has inertia which is resistant to movement, than how was the earth able to move in the first place?
There are two ways this question can be interpreted.

Firstly, this question can be interpreted as asking how can earthquakes happen. Every piece of matter has this property of inertia which makes it resistant to changing movement under a force. The more mass an object has the more resistant it is to changing movement under a force. Energy can be expended upon a piece of matter in order to overcome its inertia – this is called doing work and is practically the definition of energy in elementary physics. This is precisely what happens during an earthquake. The potential energy contained within a pressurised plate interaction is suddenly converted into a great deal of kinetic energy (this is similar to when you drop a ball and the gravitational potential energy is converted into kinetic energy) that manifests as vibrations within the material surrounding the release point (called the focus of the earthquake). An earthquake is when the pressure of a plate interaction causes the plates to snap, resulting in the conversion of a large amount of potential pressurise energy into a large amount of kinetic energy – overcoming the inertia of the surrounding material in the process.

Secondly, this question can be interpreted as asking how the earth can be accelerating* around the sun. The sun is exerting a gravitational force upon the earth which overcomes its inertia.

*I use the term accelerating correctly here even if it looks a little odd. Inertia is resistance to change in motion, which is definitionally acceleration. Change in motion is change in direction and/or speed, other wise known as change in velocity. The earth’s motion is under constant change due to the sun’s gravity (basically by moving in a circular orbit the direction of motion is constantly changing) and is hence an acceleration.

I never made any assumption that there would be any reason for the earth to be shaking.
You should reread this comment within the context of your claim that mountains prevent the earth from shaking (which at one stage, almost ironically, you tried to redefine as what we feel). If you have no reason for why we the earth should be shaking, then you also have no reason for supposing mountains prevent that shaking. This is simply another contradiction in a long line of contradictions that have all been topped off with contradictions and served with a side order of contradictions.

Well, since you've admittedly acknowldge that you do not have much knowledge of the subject, I would only suggest that you look up the answer and see for sure if it is in fact what you say it is.
I must point out, once again, of the ridiculousness of your demanding double standards.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Actually, I indicated that inertia was a property of matter. From Wikipedia:

I duly note that, despite you having to ask what inertia was, your arrogance still allowed you to fire the insulting and ironic quip “Your statement concerning inertia ia evidence enough that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about”.

Response: The problem you are having is that you have jumped into battle without any artilery and now you want to grasp for the artilery after the battle has started instead of having your artilery prepared before engaging in the battle. In other words, you made a statement that mountains do not prevent the earth from shaking and that they do not stabilize the earth without any proof or knowledge before you made the claim but since you've already made the claim and lack the humility to take it back, you're now backpeddling for proof. Nonetheless, as you continue to read the rest of this response, you will witness your argument come to a screeching halt and how illogical your claim was to begin with once and for all. But before that, just bare with me. The clear proof is at the end of the response. I would just like for you to gather YmirGF, The Voice of Reason, Mestemia, and all the others who insisted to side with you about your claim concerning mountains.

Adressing your statement of inertia, again you are wrong. Inertia is not a property of matter. Your own definition proves that. It is you who just stated that inertia is the principle in which to describe the motion of matter and how it is affected by applied force. So your own words demonstrate that inertia is not a property of matter. But this is not the issue. Keep reading. And again, make sure YmirGF, Mestemia, and others are reading along with you. The finale is soon to come.

Quote: themadhair
By being in direct contact with the energy-rich material. For example, when you drop an object it falls by converting gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy. This kinetic energy is absorbed into the earth when that object comes into contact with the earth. Essentially, due to the sheer size of the earth, any such energy is greatly diluted within the earth’s mass.

Response: Amazing. We finally agree on something. The odd thing is that in that statement alone, you are demonstrating and proving my case, not yours. But I don't have time for details. You see, what you are doing is parroting what you have read on some website in an effort to prove your point but because you are so fixated on trying to be right, you're not taking the time to analyze your own evidence. Your whole statement above is proving exactly what mountains do and how they prevent the earth from shaking!! Don't you see!? Don't you seee!!? Nonetheless, keep reading. The end is almost near.

Quote: themadhair
There are two ways this question can be interpreted.

Firstly, this question can be interpreted as asking how can earthquakes happen. Every piece of matter has this property of inertia which makes it resistant to changing movement under a force. The more mass an object has the more resistant it is to changing movement under a force. Energy can be expended upon a piece of matter in order to overcome its inertia – this is called doing work and is practically the definition of energy in elementary physics. This is precisely what happens during an earthquake. The potential energy contained within a pressurised plate interaction is suddenly converted into a great deal of kinetic energy (this is similar to when you drop a ball and the gravitational potential energy is converted into kinetic energy) that manifests as vibrations within the material surrounding the release point (called the focus of the earthquake). An earthquake is when the pressure of a plate interaction causes the plates to snap, resulting in the conversion of a large amount of potential pressurise energy into a large amount of kinetic energy – overcoming the inertia of the surrounding material in the process.

Response: Listen to what you just said: "The more mass an object has the more resistant it is to changing movement under a force." These are your words, not mine. So if you understand this concept and you understand how mountains are formed, why are you being so stubborn as to realizing that mountains do in fact stabilize the earth and prevent it from shaking? Your own evidence is showing this. Can't you see?! Anyway, keep reading. It's almost over. Is mestemia and YmirGF around yet?

Quote: themadhair
Secondly, this question can be interpreted as asking how the earth can be accelerating* around the sun. The sun is exerting a gravitational force upon the earth which overcomes its inertia.

*I use the term accelerating correctly here even if it looks a little odd. Inertia is resistance to change in motion, which is definitionally acceleration. Change in motion is change in direction and/or speed, other wise known as change in velocity. The earth’s motion is under constant change due to the sun’s gravity (basically by moving in a circular orbit the direction of motion is constantly changing) and is hence an acceleration.

You should reread this comment within the context of your claim that mountains prevent the earth from shaking (which at one stage, almost ironically, you tried to redefine as what we feel). If you have no reason for why we the earth should be shaking, then you also have no reason for supposing mountains prevent that shaking. This is simply another contradiction in a long line of contradictions that have all been topped off with contradictions and served with a side order of contradictions.

Response: You need to reread the post. No where in the post have I said that I have no reason why the earth should be shaking and I never claimed that the earth "should" be shaking and you can't quote any post of mine saying otherwise.

Quote: themadhair
I must point out, once again, of the ridiculousness of your demanding double standards.

Response: We are finally at the end. Is it proof that you want from me? Very well. It is you who just used wikipedia as a source of evidence, therefore confirming its reliability as a good source. So here we are and here it is. Once again I can not provide a link for you to simply click on due to the fact that I am on this site through my blackberry phone. Nonetheless, I am sure that if I request the link from a fellow muslim or someone else here they will surely assist me. In the mean time, type in the following in your computer as you see it written on your screen. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain) Once there, under the subtitle "geology", go to the second paragraph and read. In it it says "In order to balance the weight of the earth's surface, much of the compressed rock is forced downward, producing deep "mountain roots"(See the Book of "Earth", Press and Siever page. 413). Mountains therefore form downward as well as upward (see isostasy)". Basically word for word what I originally said in post 210 of page 21 in the "Modern science..." thread where this conversation first began.

You have now been presented with clear cut evidence that mountains do in fact stabilize the earth. The only question left to ask now is whether you and those you decided to agree with you have the humility to confess this truth.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
 
Last edited:

McBell

Unbound
Response: In other words, this response is just a longer version of you saying that you have no proof of your statement.
You go right ahead and believe whatever you have to in order to sleep at night.
You have already proven that you care not for truth or facts.
 
Top