Qur'an Vs Bible Vs Bhagavad Gita Vs None

[Trailblazer]

Can i suggest that rather then 'interpret' the verse, you just accept what the verse is saying??

The verse does not 'say' anything, people read and interpret the verse to determine what it means.

Is it so hard to accept that a verse is already interpreted by its writer? If the writer said 'the soul dies' why do you feel the need to 'interpret' that differently?

No, that is not an interpretation, that is just what the writer wrote. All written material requires interpretation to determine the meaning. "The soul dies" means different things to different people and has to be understood in context or the verse and the verses it is surrounded by.

Also, if the bible (Gods Word) says that the spirit 'returns to the true God who gave it' then why do you believe it means that the spirit and the person who had that spirit are still living??

The spirit (soul) is the person and that person continues to live in the spiritual world after the physical body dies.

If the spirit is from God, it belongs to God and if it leaves the body when the person dies, then what makes you think the dead person still has control of that spirit? What makes you think that 'spirit' is the person themselves??

The spirit belongs to each person, not to God. Each person directs their own spirit. "Returns to God" means gets close to God and attains God's presence..

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159

“Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world….” Gleanings, p. 156

 

[CG Didymus]

With all the religions including Krishna and the Gita, the spiritual virtues such as the love of God, detachment and spiritual qualities never need be questioned for they are eternal in all faiths so automatically accepted as truth. For example the wisdom of Buddha, mindfulness and meditation are all things the Writings of Baha’u’llah agree upon and promote also.

Then there are the social laws which might be things like eating meat or pork or fish and whether one can divorce or not. These laws are not eternal and change from age to age according to our evolution and progress etc.

Lastly there are man made doctrines derived from the interpretation of the clergy and religious leaders. So some may create the sacraments such as baptism, communion and also reincarnation as well as the prophecies regarding the future Promised One. In this area because there is so much disagreement, conflict, controversy and even thousands of sects and wars created over the true meanings, no ordinary man is able to solve this problem. So the scriptures of all Faiths speak of One Who will come and bring unity over these matters such as ‘the Spirit of Truth When He appears, will explain everything, that the true interpretation of the Quran will come on the Day of Judgement and so on.

So we can agree with all the spiritual virtues and teachings of all religions and organisations and truths proven by science. Only the social laws will vary but the true interpretation of the Holy Books it is stated cannot be unravelled by ordinary man.

To make this very important point I have quoted Revelation 5:5 which says just that. Only a God sent Messenger is able to do this.


1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Daniel 13:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”

Sura 7:50

50 And now have we brought them the Book: with knowledge have we explained it; a guidance and a mercy to them that believe. What have they to wait for now but its interpretation? When its interpretation13 shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, ‘The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth;

So CG ALL the interpretations going around by ordinary men, scholars and clerics, acoording to the Holy Texts are WRONG because the Scriptures state that ONLY the Promised One is able to unravel the true meanings, which are literal and which are symbolical not the Baha’is, Christians, Muslims or any other person.

We claim that Baha’u’llah is that One. The Guardian Shoghi Effendi stated that the Book of Certitude broke the "seals" of the "Book" referred to by Daniel, and disclosed the meaning of the "words" destined to remain "closed up" till the "time of the end."

Yeah, that's great. But this is what I asked...

Okay, let's just take the Hindu Scriptures for now. Are any of them, especially the ones that mention Krishna, accepted as The Truth from God by Baha'u'llah?

What I've never seen is Baha'u'llah saying, "The Bhagavad Gita" or the "Ramayana" or the "Upanishads" or the "Vedas" are the true and revealed word of God. The problem is... How can Baha'is say that Hinduism is a true religion that has been revealed by God by not believing in the Scriptures of Hinduism? And, as far as I know, Baha'is can't give their support and acceptance to any of the Hindu Scriptures in the same way they do for the Bible and Quran.

So, if Baha'is don't believe any of them are true Scriptures revealed by a manifestation, then what do they believe about them? Are they the works of men that are based on the myths about the Gods? The way it is now, it is too easy for Baha'is to say they believe in Hinduism. But why do they believe in Hinduism? Unless Baha'is also believe in the Scriptures of Hinduism. And I'm not sure Baha'is do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah, that's great. But this is what I asked...
What I've never seen is Baha'u'llah saying, "The Bhagavad Gita" or the "Ramayana" or the "Upanishads" or the "Vedas" are the true and revealed word of God. The problem is... How can Baha'is say that Hinduism is a true religion that has been revealed by God by not believing in the Scriptures of Hinduism? And, as far as I know, Baha'is can't give their support and acceptance to any of the Hindu Scriptures in the same way they do for the Bible and Quran.

So, if Baha'is don't believe any of them are true Scriptures revealed by a manifestation, then what do they believe about them? Are they the works of men that are based on the myths about the Gods? The way it is now, it is too easy for Baha'is to say they believe in Hinduism. But why do they believe in Hinduism? Unless Baha'is also believe in the Scriptures of Hinduism. And I'm not sure Baha'is do.

Baha’is believe in Krishna and the Gita but not every sect of Hinduism as there are some sects which deny God sends Manifestations. Another example is we accept Shiah not Sunni so Hinduism is not a religion but comprises many sects and Baha’is accept only certain ones.


This is an excerpt from ‘One Common Faith’ prepared by the House of Justice.

No one who sincerely poses questions to Heaven, if he persists, will fail to detect an answering voice in the Psalms or in the Upanishads. Anyone with some intimation of the Reality that transcends this material one will be touched to the heart by the words in which Jesus or Buddha speaks so intimately of it. The Qur’án’s apocalyptic visions continue to provide compelling assurance to its readers that the realization of justice is central to the Divine purpose.

Im pretty sure we read from all these scriptures in our Houses of Worship regularly.

 

[KWED]

We don’t believe in violence

You mean that you don't believe in committing violent acts?
But Bahaullah said "The one who deliberately burns a house, he shall also be burned". Sounds not only violent but barbaric.

nor that the Quran or Muhammad taught it.

Did you not read the passages from the Quran that I quoted? How is flogging, crucifixion, amputation and dismemberment "non-violent"?
How is killing, fighting, ambushing and besieging "not violent"?

As I said if you believe differently then keep that belief. That’s your right to believe what you want. I see it completely differently. So you go your way and I’ll go mine. I’m not going to change my views just like you wont change yours.

If you want to say you’re right and I’m wrong feel most welcome. It’s your own view and I know different so believe what you want.

It's not a matter of belief or opinion. It is a matter of what the Quran says.
You are simply denying reality. Your failure to actually address any of the quotes confirms this.

 

[KWED]

I don’t believe it’s fair to judge past ages by todays standards.

Of course we can judge past events by our standards. We look at the Atlantic slave trade and condemn it as barbaric.
Moreover, if an ideology or philosophy is claimed to be perfect and a valid moral guide, then of course we can judge that ideology by today's standards.

As I tried to point out that the harsh laws which may by todays standards feel violent and intolerant, were aimed at education vicious barbarians who committed things like infanticide if the first born was a female and there were serial rapes, murders and theft between the various tribes. At that time there were no prisons, corrective facilities, police, judges, courts or lawyers, so if crime was not deterred, the result would be repeat offending resulting in further harm to the innocent.

Once again, you are showing your biased sources. There is no evidence for routine female infanticide in pre-Islamic Arabia. What's more, another propaganda claim is that Islam reduced the rampant polygamy in pre-Islamic Arabia to a maximum of 4 wives.
Think about that. If female babies were routinely killed, where did all these women come from? By your argument there must have been a shortage of women to provide even one wife for most men.
Can you point to the references to the lawless Mecca with constant rapes and murders? After all, Muhammad lived there for most of his life and the first 10 years of Islam took place there. Do you know how many Muslims were killed sin those 10 years? Two! And that is tasing into account the "constant brutal persecution" they suffered.
The reality is that pre-Islamic Arabian society was probably more peaceful than the years following the migration - because Muhammad started a a war!

Just killing for killing sake is forbidden in the Quran.

Capital punishment is "killing for the sake of killing".

Muslims were only permitted to defend themselves against their oppressors and fight against those who took their homes and possessions etc.

I have explained, with references, that the Quran enabled and promoted aggressive military action. You have ignored that and keep repeating the same flawed claims. I detect a pattern emerging.

Baha’is fully accept Muhammad and the Quran as peaceful and just and that it teaches tolerance. It’s disobedience to the Quran which is the cause of any violence or intolerance for the Quran states that there should be ‘no compulsion in religion’, yet fanatics commit atrocities against other faiths despite the Quran commanding them not to.

Seriously. You need to read the Quran rather than just reading Bahai propaganda websites.[/quote]

 

[KWED]

When people point out what are my mistakes I admit I am wrong.
When people point out what are not my mistakes I do not admit I am wrong.

I showed that "opinion" and "belief" are synonymous in this context. You refuse to accept that.
You claim that "x is certain" and "x is not certain" are not contradictory.
Etc...

I did not say that makes it true, I said it is more authentic than the Bible.

What do you think "authentic" means here?

 

[KWED]

The verse does not 'say' anything, people read and interpret the verse to determine what it means.

So basically you are saying that the words used used by the author, and the way they used them are irrelevant to the meaning of a passage. It is what the reader wants it to mean that is important.
You have certainly put that principle into practice!

 

[KWED]

Another example is we accept Shiah not Sunni

The Quran doesn't mention either sect, so how do you determine which is true and which is false?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You mean that you don't believe in committing violent acts?
But Bahaullah said "The one who deliberately burns a house, he shall also be burned". Sounds not only violent but barbaric.

Did you not read the passages from the Quran that I quoted? How is flogging, crucifixion, amputation and dismemberment "non-violent"?
How is killing, fighting, ambushing and besieging "not violent"?

It's not a matter of belief or opinion. It is a matter of what the Quran says.
You are simply denying reality. Your failure to actually address any of the quotes confirms this.

Because the Quran teaches peace that is largely why there are 1.7 billion Muslims who are peaceful people instead of violent.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Quran doesn't mention either sect, so how do you determine which is true and which is false?

Because we believe Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all religions including Islam and He has confirmed that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course we can judge past events by our standards. We look at the Atlantic slave trade and condemn it as barbaric.
Moreover, if an ideology or philosophy is claimed to be perfect and a valid moral guide, then of course we can judge that ideology by today's standards.

Once again, you are showing your biased sources. There is no evidence for routine female infanticide in pre-Islamic Arabia. What's more, another propaganda claim is that Islam reduced the rampant polygamy in pre-Islamic Arabia to a maximum of 4 wives.
Think about that. If female babies were routinely killed, where did all these women come from? By your argument there must have been a shortage of women to provide even one wife for most men.
Can you point to the references to the lawless Mecca with constant rapes and murders? After all, Muhammad lived there for most of his life and the first 10 years of Islam took place there. Do you know how many Muslims were killed sin those 10 years? Two! And that is tasing into account the "constant brutal persecution" they suffered.
The reality is that pre-Islamic Arabian society was probably more peaceful than the years following the migration - because Muhammad started a a war!

Capital punishment is "killing for the sake of killing".

I have explained, with references, that the Quran enabled and promoted aggressive military action. You have ignored that and keep repeating the same flawed claims. I detect a pattern emerging.

Seriously. You need to read the Quran rather than just reading Bahai propaganda websites.

[/QUOTE]

Muslims are human beings. 1.7 billion of them are peacefully living in our world because of Muhammad and the Quran. They are proof the Quran does not teach violence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course we can judge past events by our standards. We look at the Atlantic slave trade and condemn it as barbaric.
Moreover, if an ideology or philosophy is claimed to be perfect and a valid moral guide, then of course we can judge that ideology by today's standards.

Once again, you are showing your biased sources. There is no evidence for routine female infanticide in pre-Islamic Arabia. What's more, another propaganda claim is that Islam reduced the rampant polygamy in pre-Islamic Arabia to a maximum of 4 wives.
Think about that. If female babies were routinely killed, where did all these women come from? By your argument there must have been a shortage of women to provide even one wife for most men.
Can you point to the references to the lawless Mecca with constant rapes and murders? After all, Muhammad lived there for most of his life and the first 10 years of Islam took place there. Do you know how many Muslims were killed sin those 10 years? Two! And that is tasing into account the "constant brutal persecution" they suffered.
The reality is that pre-Islamic Arabian society was probably more peaceful than the years following the migration - because Muhammad started a a war!

Capital punishment is "killing for the sake of killing".

I have explained, with references, that the Quran enabled and promoted aggressive military action. You have ignored that and keep repeating the same flawed claims. I detect a pattern emerging.

Seriously. You need to read the Quran rather than just reading Bahai propaganda websites.

[/QUOTE]


I detect a strong agenda of Muslim bashing here and I’m ending this conversation because I believe you are deliberately attempting to wound Muslims publicly by making false accusations against their Prophet and Holy Book.

This is a place I believe for civil and respectful debate not a place to attack religions. Of course you’re against Islam as a non Muslim but 1.7 billion peaceful people are peaceful because of their religion and that point seems lost to you.

I don’t want my posts to be used as a platform from which people will attack other peoples religions so I’m ending this conversation.

If you had yourself read the Quran undoubtedly you would have come across innumerable verses teaching peace, but as you make no mention of them then either you have not read them or are afraid to post them here as they would kill your argument that the Quran teaches violence.

 

[ajay0]

Okay, let's just take the Hindu Scriptures for now. Are any of them, especially the ones that mention Krishna, accepted as The Truth from God by Baha'u'llah?

The Bahails claim to believe in Krishna though they do not have any faith in his teaching of reincarnation, which is one of the central themes of the bhagavad gita where Krishna engages in an instructive discussion and dialogue with Arjuna.

Even in the western world, numerous adherents to reincarnation have come up in other religions and psychology without the influence of the dharmic religions.

Dr. Brian Weiss had to research the Dharmic religions to gain more data on his own insights into the reincarnation process which he encountered during hypnotic sessions with his patients, while trying to uncover the sources of their phobias and philias.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Bahails claim to believe in Krishna though they do not have any faith in his teaching of reincarnation, which is one of the central themes of the bhagavad gita where Krishna engages in an instructive discussion and dialogue with Arjuna.

Even in the western world, numerous adherents to reincarnation have come up in other religions and psychology without the influence of the dharmic religions.

Dr. Brian Weiss had to research the Dharmic religions to gain more data on his own insights into the reincarnation process which he encountered during hypnotic sessions with his patients, while trying to uncover the sources of their phobias and philias.

Baha’u’llah, in His Book of Certitude states that by ‘return’ is meant the qualities not the actual same personality.

Return of former generations of believers.


“Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine
Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and
certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in reality, in deeds, in words, and
in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved
similar distinctions.”


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[ajay0]

Baha’u’llah, in His Book of Certitude states that by ‘return’ is meant the qualities not the actual same personality.

Return of former generations of believers.


“Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine
Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and
certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in reality, in deeds, in words, and
in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved
similar distinctions.”


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

What does this has to do with the concept and teaching of reincarnation in the dharmic religions !

 

[loverofhumanity]

What does this has to do with the concept and teaching of reincarnation in the dharmic religions !

Reincarnation is about ‘return’. Baha’u’llah states that qualities not people return so He is making the point that reincarnation is untrue.

 

[ajay0]

Reincarnation is about ‘return’. Baha’u’llah states that qualities not people return so He is making the point that reincarnation is untrue.

But then he would be saying that rebirth process as per Buddhism, which has a similar theme, is correct.

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

 

[Bree]

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 159

“Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world….” Gleanings, p. 156

I believe that God knows more about his creations then Bahaullah does.

The nice thing about God is that he allows you to continue to follow whom ever you choose and never does he force truth onto anyone who does not wish to believe it.

He is truly worthy of our devotion and our attention.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But then he would be saying that rebirth process as per Buddhism, which has a similar theme, is correct.

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

In the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194)

 

[KWED]

Because the Quran teaches peace

But as I have repeatedly show you, the Quran does not "teach peace". It teaches peace and violence. Why do you keep simply ignoring the evidence. (Don't worry, rhetorical question. You keep ignoring it because it is uncomfortable to have your deep-rooted beliefs shaken.)

that is largely why there are 1.7 billion Muslims who are peaceful people instead of violent.

Most people are better than the religion they follow. They are generally just regular folk who want to get on with their lives in peace. The violent and intolerant passages in the Quran are irrelevant to them. Many are not even aware of them (like yourself). Millions of Muslims have never read the Quran. Their knowledge of Islam consists entirely of what their imam/parents/favourite website tells them. It is entirely understandable that people usually want to marginalise the more unacceptable elements of Islam. However, the reason that the extremist Islamists gain traction so easily is because it's all there in black and white in the Quran and sunnah for those with the agenda of promoting it.