Qur'an Vs Bible Vs Bhagavad Gita Vs None

[loverofhumanity]

No. I am talking about torturing people for not accepting a particular version of god. I am talking of torturing people for having adult, consensual sex. I am talking of condoning and facilitating slavery. I am talking of homophobia. I am talking of gender discrimination.

BTW, interesting that you seem outraged by some children throwing stones at Muhammad, but unconcerned by things like his beheading of 600 helpless prisoners.

Not always. And why does that justify returning more violence and intolerance?

He also said that if we disagree with him, we'll be tortured forever. Nice!

Pre-Islamic Arabia was no more savage and barbaric than post. In fact, Muhammad waged several campaigns of supremacist conquest against otherwise peaceful tribes. He even committed genocide against one tribe.
Also, how did Muhammad "educate" anyone. I thought he was supposed to be illiterate.

Except for the homophobia, of course. And sexist discrimination. And barbaric punishment. And disenfranchising non bahais.

I am pointing out that they all contain unacceptable elements. So, either you accept the unacceptable, or you cherry-pick. Which is it?

There is no such teaching which you are allocating to Muhammad and the Quran.

What you are citing usually is seen on anti Islamic websites like jihad watch which quotes fabricated hadiths that are neither scripture nor authentic and were created by the early caliphs in order to disobey the Quran and go on conquests for wealth and power.
The Quran and Muhammad taught freedom of religion and the dignity of man.

There are plenty of fabricated hadiths accusing Muhammad of all sorts of atrocities created to try and curtail his enormous growing popularity.

Many current Islamic laws do not originate from either the Quran nor Muhammad but have been devised by the clergy. The Quran is against violence and teaches gender equality.

Unfortunately not all Muslims are aware of the teachings of the Quran and obey misguided clergy who set themselves up as minor gods. It’s both the fault of the clergy for misleading others but also the followers for blindly believing everything they say is gospel truth.

To those who know the beauty of the Quran and who’s minds have not been poisoned by the likes of Robert Spencer, they see Islam for what it truly is, a religion of peace and brotherhood. But those who’s minds have been naive and thus poisoned only want to attack Islam not realising they do so ignorantly.

A person of true education would not be taken in by the false, biased and prejudiced anti Islamic propaganda going around. We should investigate truth with our own minds and never be so gullible as to swallow what every anti Islamic propaganda site says.

 

[Sand Dancer]

View attachment 63555
I read 2 out of 3 and touched on a summary with one of the others. Which one do you believe is the best and give your reasons for why. For those that think none of them are any good, state your reasons as well.

I haven't finished the Gita yet. Will respond back when I do. Not impressed with the other 2 in general. I think the Bible would be better if it were organized by the different groups writing in it. The four groups in Genesis alone would be better read if they were separate. The differing stories in it make it a mess to read.

 

[KWED]

There is no such teaching which you are allocating to Muhammad and the Quran.

Yes there is. Perhaps you should read it?
Example...torturing people for having adult, consensual sex - "The woman or man found guilty of fornication – flog each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them" - Quran 24:2

What you are citing usually is seen on anti Islamic websites like jihad watch which quotes fabricated hadiths that are neither scripture nor authentic and were created by the early caliphs in order to disobey the Quran and go on conquests for wealth and power.
The Quran and Muhammad taught freedom of religion and the dignity of man.

Ironically, it would seem that it is you who has been taken in by the pro-Islam propaganda websites.

There are plenty of fabricated hadiths accusing Muhammad of all sorts of atrocities created to try and curtail his enormous growing popularity.

So, are all the hadith fabricated, or just the ones that portray Muhammad or islam in a bad light?
But even if we ignore sahih hadith, there is plenty of violence, oppression and intolerance in the Quran itself.

Many current Islamic laws do not originate from either the Quran nor Muhammad but have been devised by the clergy. The Quran is against violence and teaches gender equality.

Amputation for thieves, crucifixion and dismemberment for opposing Islam, flogging for adultery, homophobia, gender discrimination, religious supremacism and intolerance. All are explicitly expressed in the Quran.

Unfortunately not all Muslims are aware of the teachings of the Quran

Indeed. You certainly seem unaware of parts of it.

and obey misguided clergy who set themselves up as minor gods. It’s both the fault of the clergy for misleading others but also the followers for blindly believing everything they say is gospel truth.

To those who know the beauty of the Quran and who’s minds have not been poisoned by the likes of Robert Spencer, they see Islam for what it truly is, a religion of peace and brotherhood. But those who’s minds have been naive and thus poisoned only want to attack Islam not realising they do so ignorantly.

A person of true education would not be taken in by the false, biased and prejudiced anti Islamic propaganda going around. We should investigate truth with our own minds and never be so gullible as to swallow what every anti Islamic propaganda site says.

Well, the thing is, the Quran contains words. Words have meanings. Naivety, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, wishful thinking all tend to be more common in followers of faith-based ideologies than in sceptics. It really is quite hubristic to assume that whatever your opinion is can be the only valid one, especially if it is a partisan one like yours.

The reality clearly apparent from any objective reading of the Quran is that Islam is a religion of peace and violence, of tolerance and intolerance, of equality and discrimination - depending on circumstance and context.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not at all. I believe the scriptures of all faiths are complimentary and all are true.

You better define and clarify what Baha'is mean as "true". In the Bible, do Baha'is believe all these things literally happened? The Adam and Eve story? Noah's flood? Parting of the seas? The plagues God sent to the Egyptians?

Then the New Testament... Do Baha'is believe everything in it is true and is complimentary to the Scriptures of the other religions?

This thread only mentions the Bhagvad Gita, but what about all the other Hindu Scriptures? Do Baha'is really believe that all of them are true? Then, which Scriptures do Baha'is believe are true in Buddhism? All of them? And all these Scriptures complement each other? And that is the official Baha'i view and can be backed up by a quote from the Baha'i writings?

 

[CG Didymus]

In the Baha’i Faith we believe in all these Holy Books.

I've seen quotes about the Quran and the Bible in the Baha'i writings... what are some quotes in the Baha'i writings about the Bhagavad Gita?

I couldn't find your response to this question. Are there quotes from the Scriptures of the other religions in Baha'u'llah's writings? Especially from Hindu and Buddhist Scripture? Then does Abdul Baha' have any quotes from them? And again, where in the Baha'i writings does it say that Baha'is should believe in all these "Holy Books"?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The Gita by a long shot. The Bible and the Qur'an are not even in the running.

Mainly because Hindus have a much healthier, more lucid relationship with their god-conceptions than the Abrahamics do... and because the artistic merit of the Gita are very impressive indeed.

Neither the Bible nor the Quran made me cry happy tears, but the Gita did. I like the Mahabharata because the heroes get their comeuppance while Abrahamic characters tend to be karma Houdini’s.

 

[Trailblazer]

What you describe is "oral tradition". The Quran was transmitted by oral tradition. If you criticise the others for it, you must also criticise the Quran.
Even though it is now physically recorded, Muslims today still celebrate and value its original oral tradition through 'hafiz'. And it is the only scripture that does.

Even though the Qur'an is oral tradition it is much more authentic than the Bible or the Gita because it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who either memorized what they heard or wrote it down.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know they are false?

Because I know that there is only one true God.

You can't even prove your own god is true!

I do not need to prove it to know it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can people misunderstand scripture that is from god?

They can and they do it all the time. Humans are fallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Our beliefs are the problem. We can believe anything we want to. We have a great imagination and if i want to go on living forever in some cloud like heavenly paradise, i can. I just have to believe thats what will happen to me and voila! Thats my destiny.

BUT it doesnt mean its true.

That is correct. Just because we believe something that does not mean it is true.

Truth should be out goal regardless of how it looks. Truth is reality. Belief is make believe.

I fully agree. What you believe is true is based upon your interpretation of the Bible.
Others interpret the Bible differently and also believe that what they believe is the truth.
So who has the truth and how can you know who has it?

The soul that sins dies: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Even of the sinless man Jesus it is written: “He hath poured out his soul unto death.”

The way I interpret that verse is that the soul who sins will not attain eternal life. Eternal life is the state of the soul that is close to God. A dead soul still continues to exist, but it is not close to God.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit* goes out, he returns to the ground;+ On that very day his thoughts perish.+
If a persons 'thoughts perish', if his consciousness is gone, then he is dead.

The way I interpret that verse is that the body returns to the ground and the thoughts he had with his brain perish, but his spirit (soul) does not perish. The spirit (soul) lives on and passes to the spiritual world where it continues to live and have consciousness. It takes on a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

After the physical body dies it returns to dust, but the spirit (soul) continues to live. Since it is his spirit (soul) that is responsible for consciousness, his consciousness continues when he passes to the spiritual world (heaven) and returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The scriptures including the Christian scriptures are clear that we are MORTAL. That is the opposite of 'immortal'

1Cor 15:53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption,+ and this which is mortal must put on immortality.

That is correct. Our bodies are mortal, but scriptures is clear that our spirits (souls) are immortal.

Now, you watch how many chrisitans will come along and state the opposite of what Gods Word clearly tells us. People dont like truth because its i painful. I get that. But no amount of wishing and believing that we are immortal (like God) will make it true.

No amount of wishing and believing that after they die our physical bodies will rise from our graves, and then we will continue to live on earth forever in a physical body is going to make that belief come true.

 

[KWED]

Even though the Qur'an is oral tradition

You just said...
"[The Quran's method of transmission] is not the same as being passed down by oral tradition."
Now you say it is oral tradition.
So many claims. So many errors.

it is much more authentic than the Bible or the Gita because it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who either memorized what they heard or wrote it down.

"Authentic" in what way?
They were all written down by humans, recording words spoken by humans.

 

[KWED]

Because I know that there is only one true God.

Well, it might not be the one you follow. You could be mistaken. Let's face it, your track record isn't great.

I do not need to prove it to know it.

 

[KWED]

They can and they do it all the time. Humans are fallible.

So you might have misunderstood it.
This also means that you wouldn't necessarily know it if wasn't from god.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The bible. It is Gods communication with mankind. Shows how he thinks and feels and explains how we can be united with him and what he will do for us.
It is a book about God, it is a book that helps us to get to know God and it is a book that shows us what the future holds in store for mankind.
It explains where we came from, how we got here, how God created the earth, why death and suffering exist and how they will soon be no more.

For a book about God, He only seems to be a cameo.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not at all. I believe the scriptures of all faiths are complimentary and all are true.

What do you think of the Hare Krishna beliefs...

The Bhagavad Gita is the word of God, as it was spoken by God himself and not a self declared son of God or prophet. The Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna, 3100 years before Jesus and 3700 years before Muhammad. It is the only known scriptures spoken by God in person. Hinduism is the only religion based on following a God who has been actually seen by millions. All other religions are based on believing in a God who has never been seen. The Bhagavad Gita gives exact information regarding God, the soul, material nature, birth, death and life after death. No other religious scripture provides this information.​

 

[Trailblazer]

You just said...
"[The Quran's method of transmission] is not the same as being passed down by oral tradition."
Now you say it is oral tradition.
So many claims. So many errors.

I was thinking of oral tradition differently than you were....
Yes, I make mistakes because I am a fallible human being but when people point out my mistakes I change my position.

"Authentic" in what way?
They were all written down by humans, recording words spoken by humans.

The Qur'an is more authentic because, according to my understanding, the scribes who wrote it knew Muhammad and actually heard His voice. The same cannot be said for the writers of the Bible. They never knew Jesus or heard His voice.

As I said before, Messengers of God are not only human, they have a twofold nature, both human and divine. All the scriptures of older religions were written by humans, since no Messenger of God ever wrote scriptures prior to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you might have misunderstood it.
This also means that you wouldn't necessarily know it if wasn't from god.

Yes, this means I might have misunderstood it, but it does not mean that I wouldn't know it was from God. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes there is. Perhaps you should read it?
Example...torturing people for having adult, consensual sex - "The woman or man found guilty of fornication – flog each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them" - Quran 24:2

Ironically, it would seem that it is you who has been taken in by the pro-Islam propaganda websites.

So, are all the hadith fabricated, or just the ones that portray Muhammad or islam in a bad light?
But even if we ignore sahih hadith, there is plenty of violence, oppression and intolerance in the Quran itself.

Amputation for thieves, crucifixion and dismemberment for opposing Islam, flogging for adultery, homophobia, gender discrimination, religious supremacism and intolerance. All are explicitly expressed in the Quran.

Indeed. You certainly seem unaware of parts of it.

Well, the thing is, the Quran contains words. Words have meanings. Naivety, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, wishful thinking all tend to be more common in followers of faith-based ideologies than in sceptics. It really is quite hubristic to assume that whatever your opinion is can be the only valid one, especially if it is a partisan one like yours.

The reality clearly apparent from any objective reading of the Quran is that Islam is a religion of peace and violence, of tolerance and intolerance, of equality and discrimination - depending on circumstance and context.

The Jewish laws also have stoning to death for certain crimes. At that time in history there were no courts, lawyers, judges, police or correction facilities so punishments for crime had to also act as a deterrent. The Quran i believe is absolutely correct for that time. Unfortunately other Prophets have appeared which have adjusted these laws for the times we are living in but the clergy do not accept that another Prophet will appear after Muhammad. So they are stuck with laws which were meant for a different age.

Premeditated violence is not supported by the Quran, only self defense.

2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:


J M Rodwell

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna, 3100 years before Jesus and 3700 years before Muhammad. It is the only known scriptures spoken by God in person.

That is absolutely false. The Bhagavad Gita was not spoken by Lord Krishna and the scriptures certainly were not spoken by God in person.

Who first wrote the Gita?

In the Indian tradition, the Bhagavad Gita, as well as the epic Mahabharata of which it is a part, is attributed to the sage Vyasa, whose full name was Krishna Dvaipayana, also called Veda-Vyasa.

Bhagavad Gita - Wikipedia

 

[loverofhumanity]

You better define and clarify what Baha'is mean as "true". In the Bible, do Baha'is believe all these things literally happened? The Adam and Eve story? Noah's flood? Parting of the seas? The plagues God sent to the Egyptians?

Then the New Testament... Do Baha'is believe everything in it is true and is complimentary to the Scriptures of the other religions?

This thread only mentions the Bhagvad Gita, but what about all the other Hindu Scriptures? Do Baha'is really believe that all of them are true? Then, which Scriptures do Baha'is believe are true in Buddhism? All of them? And all these Scriptures complement each other? And that is the official Baha'i view and can be backed up by a quote from the Baha'i writings?

There are so many scriptures that without referring to which specific Hindu or Buddhist ones it is difficult to make a comment. Truth is everywhere, in religions, in science not only in Holy Books.

For interpretation on things like the flood, etc you need to consult Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi’s interpretations as Baha’is do not interpret the scriptures and so our opinions carry no weight. We turn to them for our understanding not personal interpretation like the Christians do which has split them into thousands of sects.