Qur'an Vs Bible Vs Bhagavad Gita Vs None

[KWED]

The way you twisted European history to fit your ideological agenda, was positively Orwellian.

In what way was it "twisted"?
Both Hitler and Stalin enjoyed personality cult-like, mass adoration. The infallible, charismatic leader demanding absolute obedience on pain of censure or worse.
Ideology was sent down from unquestionable authority. Promises of great reward for the loyalty of the faithful.
Designated out-groups were dehumanised, which facilitated appalling treatment on a Biblical scale.
Regular mass meetings where the faithful would swear allegiance to the cause and denounce those outside forces "plotting" against it.
Etc, etc...

Are you really claiming that none of this is accurate?
Do you actually think that National Socialist Germany and the USSR during the 30s and 40s were liberal, tolerant, democratic systems?
Genuinely struggling to see what you are getting at.
Have you even studied any 20th century European history? (If you are from the USA, you won't have, obviously)

 

[RestlessSoul]

In what way was it "twisted"?
Both Hitler and Stalin enjoyed personality cult-like, mass adoration. The infallible, charismatic leader demanding absolute obedience on pain of censure or worse.
Ideology was sent down from unquestionable authority. Promises of great reward for the loyalty of the faithful.
Designated out-groups were dehumanised, which facilitated appalling treatment on a Biblical scale.
Regular mass meetings where the faithful would swear allegiance to the cause and denounce those outside forces "plotting" against it.
Etc, etc...

Are you really claiming that none of this is accurate?
Do you actually think that National Socialist Germany and the USSR during the 30s and 40s were liberal, tolerant, democratic systems?
Genuinely struggling to see what you are getting at.
Have you even studied any 20th century European history? (If you are from the USA, you won't have, obviously)

I’ve read a bit of Anthony Beevor if that counts. Vasily Grossman’s ‘A Writer at War’, Purcell’s History of WWII. So I’m not completely ignorant of the period. I suppose you could make a case for there being elements of a messianic personality cult around both Stalin and Hitler.

Personality cults are not religions though. And to assert, as you did, that there was nothing secular about Nazism or Stalinism is absurd, frankly; a ridiculous stretch if not a deliberate distortion of whatever evidence you might marshal to support that statement.

 

[Trailblazer]

the real problem is that christianity is tainted by false doctrines and full of false teachers who do not teach Gods Word the bible. They choose to teach pagan doctrines and they work those doctrines into the bible and look for passages that they can 'apply' to those pagan doctrines.

That's true, but all the Christian denominations say that about each other. For example a Triniratian would say that what JWs believe is false, yet they are all reading the same Bible.

Then they say it comes down to 'interpretation' but that is also a falsehood. If the bible says the 'soul dies' there is no way you can interepet that to say the soul lives eternally. If the bible says humans were created from dust, there is no way you can interpret that to mean that humans lived for eternity.

I do not know what Bible verses say that the soul dies. the following is what I believe happens to the soul when the body dies and it is supported by the Bible.

Soul Cannot Die

The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans. Jesus said.

Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

 

[Trailblazer]

They were all transmitted by oral tradition - which you actually described, basically saying "The Quran was transmitted by oral tradition, but the others were transmitted by oral tradition".

No, I said that I believe the Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible or the Gita because it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who either memorized what they heard or wrote it down, later to be compiled in the Qur'an. That is not the same as being passed down by oral tradition.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do The Iliad and Odyssey, or the Norse Sagas contain truth about gods?

They are the truth about false gods.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are saying that if any faith contains people with different views or understandings of scripture, message etc, it is not from god?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that people have different understandings of scriptures.
God does not give people 'different understandings' that contradict each other.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you accept all of every holy scripture, or do you cherry-pick to avoid the contradictory, wrong, or just plain nasty?

It’s not a matter of being selective or cherry picking. All the spiritual teachings of each religion such as love, justice, mercy and the virtues are eternal and complement each other. Only the social laws are different as they were given to different people at different times so they vary from age to age.

 

[ajay0]

I have read all three and gained insights from them. All three has helped me and I believe I am all the richer for it both spiritually and intellectually.

They have given me the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle of wisdom and religious philosophy, and have helped me to create my present understanding of religion and spirituality.

 

[KWED]

I’ve read a bit of Anthony Beevor if that counts. Vasily Grossman’s ‘A Writer at War’, Purcell’s History of WWII. So I’m not completely ignorant of the period.

Your claim about my post suggested otherwise. Perhaps there was a different agenda at play?

I suppose you could make a case for there being elements of a messianic personality cult around both Stalin and Hitler.

"suppose you could make a case"? They fit the description perfectly! (Although I never mentioned "messianic, there are certainly elements of that, especially Hitler).

Personality cults are not religions though.

They can be, and religions usually contain it to come degree, so not sure what your argument is.

And to assert, as you did, that there was nothing secular about Nazism or Stalinism

Blatant straw man. Read my post...
"I'd hesitate to call anything in Stalin's Russia "secular" in the context we understand it today."
Everything was driven by a hard ideology not dissimilar to a fundamentalist religion. There was no attempt so separate the sate from that ideology.
"Secular" does not mean "anti-religion".

is absurd, frankly; a ridiculous stretch if not a deliberate distortion

Physician, heal thyself!

 

[KWED]

No, I said that I believe the Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible or the Gita because it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who either memorized what they heard or wrote it down, later to be compiled in the Qur'an. That is not the same as being passed down by oral tradition.

What you describe is "oral tradition". The Quran was transmitted by oral tradition. If you criticise the others for it, you must also criticise the Quran.
Even though it is now physically recorded, Muslims today still celebrate and value its original oral tradition through 'hafiz'. And it is the only scripture that does.

 

[KWED]

They are the truth about false gods.

1. So the message is valuable and worth following.
2. How do you know they are false? You can't even prove your own god is true!

 

[KWED]

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that people have different understandings of scriptures.
God does not give people 'different understandings' that contradict each other.

Can people misunderstand scripture that is from god?

 

[KWED]

It’s not a matter of being selective or cherry picking. All the spiritual teachings of each religion such as love, justice, mercy and the virtues are eternal and complement each other. Only the social laws are different as they were given to different people at different times so they vary from age to age.

So it's not a matter of being selective, you just select the bits that are appropriate to you?

 

[Bree]

That's true, but all the Christian denominations say that about each other. For example a Triniratian would say that what JWs believe is false, yet they are all reading the same Bible.

I do not know what Bible verses say that the soul dies. the following is what I believe happens to the soul when the body dies and it is supported by the Bible.

Soul Cannot Die

The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans. Jesus said.

Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

Our beliefs are the problem. We can believe anything we want to. We have a great imagination and if i want to go on living forever in some cloud like heavenly paradise, i can. I just have to believe thats what will happen to me and voila! Thats my destiny.

BUT it doesnt mean its true.

Truth should be out goal regardless of how it looks. Truth is reality. Belief is make believe.

The soul that sins dies: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Even of the sinless man Jesus it is written: “He hath poured out his soul unto death.”

Psalm 146:4 His spiritt* goes out, he returns to the ground;+ On that very day his thoughts perish.+
If a persons 'thoughts perish', if his consciousness is gone, then he is dead.

The scripturs including the Christian scriptures are clear that we are MORTAL. That is the opposite of 'immortal'

1Cor 15:53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption,+ and this which is mortal must put on immortality.


Now, you watch how many chrisitans will come along and state the opposite of what Gods Word clearly tells us. People dont like truth because its i painful. I get that. But no amount of wishing and believing that we are immortal (like God) will make it true.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So it's not a matter of being selective, you just select the bits that are appropriate to you?

Not at all. I believe the scriptures of all faiths are complimentary and all are true.

 

[KWED]

Not at all. I believe the scriptures of all faiths are complimentary and all are true.

They are all true, in their entirety?

 

[loverofhumanity]

They are all true, in their entirety?

The scriptures of course. They encourage us to better ourselves.

The man made doctrines and interpretations which have arisen afterwards and caused divisions, sects and wars tend to focus on superiority and exclusiveness and are not in harmony with scriptures.

 

[KWED]

The scriptures of course. They encourage us to better ourselves.

All of all of them? Are you sure, because I have read a few and bits of them encourage awful behaviour.

The man made doctrines and interpretations which have arisen afterwards and caused divisions, sects and wars tend to focus on superiority and exclusiveness and are not in harmony with scriptures.

Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that we need to be selective in our interpretations of the actual words? Where the scriptures talk of peace and tolerance, we take it literally but when they talk of violence and intolerance, we should ignore it or reinterpret it to mean something else?

 

[loverofhumanity]

All of all of them? Are you sure, because I have read a few and bits of them encourage awful behaviour.

Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that we need to be selective in our interpretations of the actual words? Where the scriptures talk of peace and tolerance, we take it literally but when they talk of violence and intolerance, we should ignore it or reinterpret it to mean something else?

By violence and intolerance do you mean the crucifixion of Christ or the beheading of His disciples or the stoning of Muhammad or the imprisonment and exile of Baha’u’llah for 40 years for teaching religion or the execution of the Bab by 750 riflemen?

The Prophets of God and their followers have always been subject to horrific violence and intolerance which has been documented in the Holy Scriptures.

Christ taught to love one another even our enemies, to be forgiving and to help the poor. Muhammad educated and united the savage and barbaric tribes of the Arabian Peninsula into one nation with laws, and Baha’u’llah calls for the acceptance of all human beings as one family.

Which of these religions are you objecting to?

 

[KWED]

By violence and intolerance do you mean the crucifixion of Christ or the beheading of His disciples or the stoning of Muhammad or the imprisonment and exile of Baha’u’llah for 40 years for teaching religion or the execution of the Bab by 750 riflemen?

No. I am talking about torturing people for not accepting a particular version of god. I am talking of torturing people for having adult, consensual sex. I am talking of condoning and facilitating slavery. I am talking of homophobia. I am talking of gender discrimination.

BTW, interesting that you seem outraged by some children throwing stones at Muhammad, but unconcerned by things like his beheading of 600 helpless prisoners.

The Prophets of God and their followers have always been subject to horrific violence and intolerance which has been documented in the Holy Scriptures.

Not always. And why does that justify returning more violence and intolerance?

Christ taught to love one another even our enemies, to be forgiving and to help the poor.

He also said that if we disagree with him, we'll be tortured forever. Nice!

Muhammad educated and united the savage and barbaric tribes of the Arabian Peninsula into one nation with laws,

Pre-Islamic Arabia was no more savage and barbaric than post. In fact, Muhammad waged several campaigns of supremacist conquest against otherwise peaceful tribes. He even committed genocide against one tribe.
Also, how did Muhammad "educate" anyone. I thought he was supposed to be illiterate.

and Baha’u’llah calls for the acceptance of all human beings as one family.

Except for the homophobia, of course. And sexist discrimination. And barbaric punishment. And disenfranchising non bahais.

Which of these religions are you objecting to?

I am pointing out that they all contain unacceptable elements. So, either you accept the unacceptable, or you cherry-pick. Which is it?