Racism in Scripture! Why do people deny it?

[PureX]

Racism (really, bigotry) is one of those human modes of thought and behavior that are very difficult to recognize when engage in. Bigots rarely are able to recognize that they are bigots, and consequently rarely able to recognize the bigotry of others. For the bigot, who believes his bigotry to be the 'truth of things', that's what it appears to be. Just the truth of things.

 

[Spiderman]

Racism (really, bigotry) is one of those human modes of thought and behavior that are very difficult to recognize when engage in. Bigots rarely are able to recognize that they are bigots, and consequently rarely able to recognize the bigotry of others. For the bigot, who believes his bigotry to be the 'truth of things', that's what it appears to be. Just the truth of things.

Certain things are okay to be bigoted against yes?

Like, a regime or hate group that kills innocent people? It's okay to sharply criticize, condemn, and despise the regime or group , correct?

 

[Spiderman]

Then you mined the quotes because your position is wrong. Just saying "The Bible" isn't a quote.

For one, it wasn't racial purity, it was faith purity... anyone can become Jewish.

How about the curse placed on Ham and his descendants?. Or only choosing one ethnicity for countless generations, one bloodline, far more blessed and exalted than all others, to reveal truth to, leaving the rest blind and ignorant?

How about the fact that Jesus only chose people of his ethnicity and gender as Apostles, and the Bible was revealed to and written by one ethnicity and bloodline (with the exception of possibly Luke which is up for debate), favored above the rest. ? You know it's true!

 

[halbhh]

The argument here is not: "does the Bible promote racism?"

OF COURSE IT PROMOTES RACISM!

That is so obvious, it isn't even up for debate.

Just because the New Testament contains a few words of equality amongst "gentile, Jew, Greek, slave, free, man , woman etc. " There are many verses that say the EXACT OPPOSITE!

Not to mention, how you behave, and what your destiny and inclinations are going to be, according to different passages in Scripture, depend on how blessed or cursed the blood line is that you descend from, and who your ancestors are.

Depending on how much God doesn't like a group in Scripture, he sometimes wipes them out or kills their first born with an Angel of death, or punishes everyone with plagues, or drowns practically everyone, depending on what portion of Scripture you are reading.

(Speaking of flooding, I got caught in damn rapids I thought would push me down stream. Instead the rapids sucked me towards the damn, and everywhere I swam, rapids kept pushing me back to the same location. I called out for help, nobody was around. Everywhere I swam, the rapids kept pushing me to the same location. Something eventually told me to go to the bottom and start kicking off the rocks. Eventually I did that enough times, that I made it far enough downstream, that the rapids kept pushing me eventually to land.

By the time I reached land, I was so exhausted and oxygen deprived, that I was blind for a period of time (could not see), extremely nauseous, stumbling around sick, and I had a splitting headache that lasted the rest of the day. Drowning is an extremely frightening, miserable, scary way to die! And yet God drowned the world, including babies, children, and pregnant women. It's extremely mean and cruel!)

The descendants of ham were cursed by Noah, to serve the descendants of Noah's other brothers, for a silly "crime" they were innocent of, making it atrocious for Noah to place the curse, and even more despicable, cruel, and unjust, for an all powerful God to ratify and execute the curse!

Because of the Geographic location where descendants of Ham settled, people have used Scripture to justify slavery.

Granted, hundreds of thousands of Christians were abolitionists, and my hat goes off to them, but Jesus was not a slave abolitionist, and the New Testament justifies slavery, telling slaves "obey your masters".

God clearly, in Scripture, will bless one group of people, and their descendants, and favor them, and curse another. It's why I converted to Shinto, where there are no inerrant Scriptures, no known founder, the only Doctrine is "belief in the Kami (God , Spirits, 90% of the world roughly believes in Kami, so nothing to argue about in Shinto), no inerrant prophets, (and the highest Kami in Shinto is a cute sweet female, lady of light and sunshine, who grew to be greater and more venerated than her maker), because obviously Scripture contains error, and so do Prophets, and the creator is out to lunch, racist, and not nice!

At least if we judge by Scripture!

So tell me though, why do people who believe Scripture is without error, still claim to this day it is NOT racist? Why refuse to identify the obvious??

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(New Testament, the source of 'Christian-ity' of the particular kind that is about following Christ)

We know (if we read what Christ said) that zero racists will make it into heaven. (see examples below)

I can remember from my reading things not all would know, so let me quote a few things and you tell me what you think they mean, ok?

Old testament, Moses traveling with the tribes of Israel through the desert:

1 While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron criticized Moses because he had married a Cu****e woman. (Cush is ancient Ethiopia, where of course people have beautiful dark skin, far darker than the typical Jew (Abram/Israel originated in 'Ur', which is in southern Iraq, and they are not very dark skinned) 2They said, “Has the LORD spoken only through Moses? Hasn’t he spoken through us, too?” But the LORD heard them. 3 (Now Moses was very humble—more humble than any other person on earth.)

4 So immediately the LORD called to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam and said, “Go out to the Tabernacle, all three of you!” So the three of them went to the Tabernacle. 5Then the LORD descended in the pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the Tabernacle. “Aaron and Miriam!” he called, and they stepped forward. 6And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say: ...

9The LORD was very angry with them (Aaron and Miriam) and he departed. 10 As the cloud moved from above the Tabernacle, there stood Miriam, her skin as white as snow from leprosy. (Miriam is punished with snow white skin from the awful disease of leprosy, so now she is even whiter....what a severe punishment for her racism...but best really: racism is a profound evil) When Aaron saw what had happened to her, 11 he cried out to Moses, “Oh, my master! Please don’t punish us for this sin we have so foolishly committed. 12 Don’t let her be like a stillborn baby, already decayed at birth.”
Numbers 12 NLT

Or in the New Testament:

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. 27 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea."

(An apostle is diverted from his normal evangelizing to groups of people, where he can convert dozens in a day, to travel away off into the almost empty desert for the sake of just 1 individual, an Ethiopian, but once this person of a very different race is converted, Philip is quickly transported back to his usual work in a place where he can convert many at once (as you see in the last verse))

Are you sure it's 'racism' you are seeing?

Also, it's clear in the Bible that zero slave owners that fail to convert so that they begin to treat their servants as entire equals in all ways would be able to make it into heaven. Only those that began to treat their former 'slaves' as total equals can enter heaven:

Here's an example of that radical change in the New Testament: Philemon 1 NIV

So, you see, the Christian abolitionists that largely began and pushed the movement to end slavery were merely following the New Testament. Christian abolitionism - Wikipedia

 

[Link]

I don't understand people who believe God once allowed slavery. Why? Why do you believe that about God? How can you assess anything to be light and morally holy and to be from God if you believe God allowed slavery?

 

[VoidCat]

I gave you the source: "The Holy Bible." Read it. Use Google!

did you just tell @KenS a pastor whose job is to read the Bible to read the Bible? I mean i don't care who is right or wrong here regarding the Bible and race but that's kinda funny to me.

Like if you are right then Ken needs a few lessons on how to read and interpret what he's reading and if you are wrong well then that explains why you didn't provide verse and chapter
Either way it's hilarious since its his job to read it. He still could be wrong mind you, I've met very crappy pastors, but it's still funny.

 

[halbhh]

I don't understand people who believe God once allowed slavery. Why? Why do you believe that about God? How can you assess anything to be light and morally holy and to be from God if you believe God allowed slavery?

Right. It's similar to the arguments where someone points out that the world has much evil in it (humans doing various evils) and then blames God for what people do.

Anything evil: blame God. It's illogical, but this idea just reappears like a prolific weed now and then, even if you explain the necessity of free will (which makes actual love possible) repeatedly. Someone new that never really thought about it much will come along and claim evil existing means God is to blame, etc.

The entire Old Testament of the Common Bible is just a long process of God trying to establish the Rule of Law to slow down the amount of evil, reduce it.

Pragmatic even.

So that the less evil people might have a chance to try to turn to a better way of living, without being murdered so often.

So, God worked to reduce evil while still allowing free will, even though the more evil majority of people in a given place/time would usually just ignore laws they felt were inconvenient.

So, God gave to Israel for instance smaller incremental steps that a larger portion of people might actually do in a given time and place, like this:

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master.
16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.

-- Deuteronomy 23, circa ~1300 BCE (about 3300 years ago, by the most common dating)

Only after Christ came would slavery just flat out end (e.g. Philemon 1 NIV) , and only for the relative "few" that actually believed in Him enough to follow His words.

In contrast, the larger majority we can think would just continue as usual, as only relatively few would believe enough to do as Christ and Paul instructed, where after trying to show Christ to their masters, slaves were to seek their freedom, or be given it (or the equivalent: full family level total equality) by slave owners that did actually convert and genuinely believe.

Even today, with slavery officially outlawed, there's still a lot of it around, even in the U.S.

Those that want to do evil just find new ways to hide it or disguise it.

 

[PureX]

Certain things are okay to be bigoted against yes?

Like, a regime or hate group that kills innocent people? It's okay to sharply criticize, condemn, and despise the regime or group , correct?

That's not an accurate description of bigotry. Bigotry is unreasonable and unjustified. And often quite irrational. A kind of self-inflating bias that operates by belittling others.

 

[Nimos]

I don't understand people who believe God once allowed slavery. Why? Why do you believe that about God? How can you assess anything to be light and morally holy and to be from God if you believe God allowed slavery?

In that case the bible is wrong, fair enough if one doesn't believe that about God, but then the conclusion must be that either the bible is wrong or God allowed/supported it. People will go to great length trying to explain it away, but I would say that it is pretty damn obvious that it is what the bible say.

Exodus 21:7-9
7 - “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
8 - If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.
9 - If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter.

20 - “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.
21 - But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

26 - “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye.
27 - If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

And keep in mind that this is God that say this.

Exodus 20:22
22 - And the LORD said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.

Exodus 21:1 (Next page)
1 - “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them.

 

[Link]

Right. It's similar to the arguments where someone points out that the world has much evil in it (humans doing various evils) and then blames God for what people do.

God not speaking out against it but regulating it, would be violating human rights, and the excuse is because people do it? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Link]

In that case the bible is wrong, fair enough if one doesn't believe that about God, but then the conclusion must be that either the bible is wrong or God allowed/supported it.

Or part of the Bible has been corrupted, and part of it still makes sense.

 

[halbhh]

God not speaking out against it but regulating it, would be violating human rights, and the excuse is because people do it? Doesn't make sense to me.

I was adding some more to that same post there to lay out the big picture, and it directly addresses precisely what you are raising here, so instead of me posting it again, let me just ask you to look at that updated post.

 

[Link]

I was adding some more to that same post there to lay out the big picture, and it directly addresses precisely what you are raising here.

I've heard this gradually let's get rid of it excuse from Muslims too. It doesn't frankly make sense, imagine you are a slave at that time. How does it make sense to that person who wants to be free? There is no huge economic repercussions, it's a lie. And even if there was, it doesn't justify enslaving humans.

Sorry, it makes no sense. I've heard this lame excuse from Muslims as well.

 

[Link]

As for what to do with captives? If the war is over Quran says set them free. If the war is still on, you can ransom them or set them free by grace. This punishing people for being defeated, as if it's either death or slavery, also doesn't make sense.

And taking people as captives only makes sense if there is a huge slaughter to prevent heavy amount of death. But you use captives to exchange from captives, or you can ransom them to help fund your war or if they are good intentioned and learn the religion ,let them go by grace, but when war is over, obviously, it makes sense to let them go.

And captive doesn't mean slave you can have sex with if it's a woman at your leisure!

This is the justice that is in Quran, but people misinterpreted it.

 

[Kenny]

I answered that for you. Jesus only healed the woman, when she referred to her people as dogs. That's very dehumanizing and wrong.

That is because you are reading it through a western thought process. You have to understand what Jesus was doing and how he was trying to lead the woman to get her petition.

It would be like you trying to access God while speaking bad Him... just isn't the right way to approach.

So....28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

THAT is what Jesus was trying to achieve. Aren't you happy that Jesus healed her loved one?

 

[Kenny]

How about the curse placed on Ham and his descendants?. Or only choosing one ethnicity for countless generations, one bloodline, far more blessed and exalted than all others, to reveal truth to, leaving the rest blind and ignorant?

How about the fact that Jesus only chose people of his ethnicity and gender as Apostles, and the Bible was revealed to and written by one ethnicity and bloodline (with the exception of possibly Luke which is up for debate), favored above the rest. ? You know it's true!

Are you interested in answers? Or are you on another rant.

 

[Nimos]

Or part of the Bible has been corrupted, and part of it still makes sense.

Yes, that is one of the answers as I mentioned in the first reply

The problem with that, is that then we end up cherry picking. Because how do we determine what is corrupted and what is not? Do we just say that all the parts we like are the uncorrupted ones and those we disagree with are the corrupted ones?

If we went with that, we might as well conclude that we know absolutely nothing about God of the bible, but that it is purely us guessing and cherry picking stuff, maybe some verses got lost? So maybe we could "recreate" them and add them as well? In theory we could do this, because there would be no trustworthiness left in the bible at this point anyway.

There are people that have suggested to simply remove the OT, because that way most of the bad things would disappear. But it is not going to benefit those that believe in it being true in my opinion.

 

[Link]

But it is not going to benefit those that believe in it being true in my opinion.

This just means it has to replaced by another revelation. Can you show any verses in the Gospels that says the OT is not corrupted and intact? I've gotten the impression otherwise from Jesus (a) and Gospels. But let's see if you can.

 

[Spiderman]

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(New Testament, the source of 'Christian-ity' of the particular kind that is about following Christ)

We know (if we read what Christ said) that zero racists will make it into heaven. (see examples below)

I can remember from my reading things not all would know, so let me quote a few things and you tell me what you think they mean, ok?

Old testament, Moses traveling with the tribes of Israel through the desert:

1 While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron criticized Moses because he had married a Cu****e woman. (Cush is ancient Ethiopia, where of course people have beautiful dark skin, far darker than the typical Jew (Abram/Israel originated in 'Ur', which is in southern Iraq, and they are not very dark skinned) 2They said, “Has the LORD spoken only through Moses? Hasn’t he spoken through us, too?” But the LORD heard them. 3 (Now Moses was very humble—more humble than any other person on earth.)

4 So immediately the LORD called to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam and said, “Go out to the Tabernacle, all three of you!” So the three of them went to the Tabernacle. 5Then the LORD descended in the pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the Tabernacle. “Aaron and Miriam!” he called, and they stepped forward. 6And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say: ...

9The LORD was very angry with them (Aaron and Miriam) and he departed. 10 As the cloud moved from above the Tabernacle, there stood Miriam, her skin as white as snow from leprosy. (Miriam is punished with snow white skin from the awful disease of leprosy, so now she is even whiter....what a severe punishment for her racism...but best really: racism is a profound evil) When Aaron saw what had happened to her, 11 he cried out to Moses, “Oh, my master! Please don’t punish us for this sin we have so foolishly committed. 12 Don’t let her be like a stillborn baby, already decayed at birth.”
Numbers 12 NLT

Or in the New Testament:

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. 27 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea."

(An apostle is diverted from his normal evangelizing to groups of people, where he can convert dozens in a day, to travel away off into the almost empty desert for the sake of just 1 individual, an Ethiopian, but once this person of a very different race is converted, Philip is quickly transported back to his usual work in a place where he can convert many at once (as you see in the last verse))

Are you sure it's 'racism' you are seeing?

Also, it's clear in the Bible that zero slave owners that fail to convert so that they begin to treat their servants as entire equals in all ways would be able to make it into heaven. Only those that began to treat their former 'slaves' as total equals can enter heaven:

Here's an example of that radical change in the New Testament: Philemon 1 NIV

So, you see, the Christian abolitionists that largely began and pushed the movement to end slavery were merely following the New Testament. Christian abolitionism - Wikipedia

God , in Scripture, blesses, favors, and exalts one bloodline of people far above all others, commands them to commit violence against others, and for countless generations, was only giving significant adequate revelation and prophecies, to one ethnic group. Jesus referred to children of Israel as human beings, and another woman and her people as dogs!

That qualifies as a racist mentality.

 

[Spiderman]

That is because you are reading it through a western thought process. You have to understand what Jesus was doing and how he was trying to lead the woman to get her petition.

It would be like you trying to access God while speaking bad Him... just isn't the right way to approach.

So....28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

THAT is what Jesus was trying to achieve. Aren't you happy that Jesus healed her loved one?

I'm delighted that Jesus healed her. Very much!

If I saw him healing and guiding seekers on earth, I would not complain!