"Rape jokes are no laughing matter"

[Badran]

I don't know what to make of that.

Haha

If the joke is making fun of the rapist rather than the victim, I think that's a whole different situation.

I thought you might consider it as such. It's partially why i shared it, as they technically fall under rape jokes.

 

[Badran]

I don't find rape "jokes" to be tactful, appropriate, or even funny. I view them as trivializing other people's tragedies and making light of something that should be taken very seriously. Even with close friends or people whom one knows very well, I still don't think that joking about rape would be okay.

Trivializes it in what sense? To whom?

If to the person saying it, then i'm afraid that's not the case. I joke about it all the time and don't view it one bit less of a disaster than anybody else, if not actually more than most.

If to the people hearing it, then again, i hear it all the time, and nothing have been trivialized. And i'm not unique in that regard.

In other words, I find joking about rape to be possibly as tasteless and inappropriate as making fun of disabled people — no matter who does it or when they do it, it is still wrong and unacceptable.

Is there any other reason for why you perceive it as wrong, or just the above?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Trivializes it in what sense? To whom?

If to the person saying it, then i'm afraid that's not the case. I joke about it all the time and don't view it one bit less of a disaster than anybody else, if not actually more than most.

If to the people hearing it, then again, i hear it all the time, and nothing have been trivialized. And i'm not unique in that regard.

In the sense of people getting used to laughing about such things and making the subject seem less serious than it actually is, even if unintentionally.

If, for example, I lost a loved one and then heard someone make a joke about it later, I'd feel that they were handling the topic in an inconsiderate manner, or at least an inappropriate one. They may not mean to insult me or dismiss my feelings, but the end result is the same: the intentions behind the words aren't readily discernible as the words themselves, so such jokes can still be hurtful even if they aren't intended to be.

I don't think that everyone who makes such jokes or laughs about them necessarily views rape as something normal. Rather, they might just think that most people would understand their intentions — that they don't mean to trivialize rape or make it seem normal — when they laugh about rape jokes (or jokes about other 'serious' things). However, I do think it very likely for a rape victim to be offended by such jokes, especially if the person making it wasn't a rape victim themselves. In my opinion, that alone is enough of a reason to not make said jokes.

Is there any other reason for why you perceive it as wrong, or just the above?

The reasons mentioned above, in addition to the possibility of offending a victim of rape/cancer/etc. and making them feel demeaned by laughing at the causes of their suffering.

 

[Badran]

In the sense of people getting used to laughing about such things and making the subject seem less serious than it actually is, even if unintentionally.

If, for example, I lost a loved one and then heard someone make a joke about it later, I'd feel that they were handling the topic in an inconsiderate manner, or at least an inappropriate one. They may not mean to insult me or dismiss my feelings, but the end result is the same: the intentions behind the words aren't readily discernible as the words themselves, so such jokes can still be hurtful even if they aren't intended to be.

I don't think that everyone who makes such jokes or laughs about them necessarily views rape as something normal. Rather, they might just think that most people would understand their intentions — that they don't mean to trivialize rape or make it seem normal — when they laugh about rape jokes (or jokes about other 'serious' things). However, I do think it very likely for a rape victim to be offended by such jokes, especially if the person making it wasn't a rape victim themselves. In my opinion, that alone is enough of a reason to not make said jokes.

The reasons mentioned above, in addition to the possibility of offending a victim of rape/cancer/etc. and making them feel demeaned by laughing at the causes of their suffering.

I made this distinction earlier, or at least attempted to do so. The difference between normalization of such jokes and their usage in general in some contexts.

As i said in that post, i could see merit in having reservations about normalizing it, and think it's wise to discourage that. However, that doesn't translate into it being wrong in all contexts, or anything to that effect.

You essentially said that, among other things, it's always wrong, and shared a reason for so. That reason doesn't apply in all contexts. This is essentially what i disagree with in your post.

 

[Me Myself]

Because sometimes going against a cop is justified.

Sometimes. But the jokes are rarely limited to those times. I just find it completely unnecessary to put fiction under moral constraints.

Getting a laugh at a rape victims expense comes with a whole different set of "shouldn'ts" than most of the examples you've given.

What about getting a laugh about something who fell of a cliff? It doesn´t matter cause it´s not a real person. It´s the same when it comes to the raped person. It is just a joke. The subject of the joke does not exist, or is just a highly well paid actor that was not raped at all.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I made this distinction earlier, or at least attempted to do so. The difference between normalization of such jokes and their usage in general in some contexts.

As i said in that post, i could see merit in having reservations about normalizing it, and think it's wise to discourage that. However, that doesn't translate into it being wrong in all contexts, or anything to that effect.

You essentially said that, among other things, it's always wrong, and shared a reason for so. That reason doesn't apply in all contexts. This is essentially what i disagree with in your post.

As pointed out earlier, if the rape jokes are about making fun of the rapist, then I agree that they wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate. Basically, my criteria for whether or not such jokes are acceptable is how a rape victim (or a victim of anything similar, depending on the subject the joke is about) would perceive them: if I think that it wouldn't offend them in case it was told to them, then I'd have no problem telling such jokes myself. If, however, there is a likability that they'd feel offended if someone told those jokes to them, I'd rather avoid telling such jokes at all.

In this case, I believe that most people who were subjected to rape wouldn't be okay with someone making jokes about being raped, hence my thinking that it is wrong and comparable to joking about disabilities (which I imagine would be similarly offensive to most people with disabilities).

 

[Me Myself]

There is always someone who will find any x thing offensive.

always.

 

[Badran]

As pointed out earlier, if the rape jokes are about making fun of the rapist, then I agree that they wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate..

Cool.

Basically, my criteria for whether or not such jokes are acceptable is how a rape victim (or a victim of anything similar, depending on the subject the joke is about) would perceive them: if I think that it wouldn't offend them in case it was told to them, then I'd have no problem telling such jokes myself. If, however, there is a likability that they'd feel offended if someone told those jokes to them, I'd rather avoid telling such jokes at all..

That is certainly the right thing to do. I wouldn't even consider telling a rape joke to a rape victim unless they themselves have demonstrated to me that they're okay with it, by cracking such jokes themselves, and/or at least displaying and saying repeatedly that they're fine with joking about it.

However, another distinction is that rape victims are of course not the only audience for this. Most people are not rape victims. So i'f i'm hanging out with a friend who is not a rape victim, a person that i know very well and also know that they enjoy such things, it would not be tasteless or wrong in anyway to joke about this with them.

I'm basically pointing out the many possible exceptions. Like i said i agree with both your intent and your reservations about normalizing this, i'm only trying to point out the number of possible situations where such thing would be fine.

In this case, I believe that most people who were subjected to rape wouldn't be okay with someone making jokes about being raped, hence my thinking that it is wrong and comparable to joking about disabilities (which I imagine would be similarly offensive to most people with disabilities).

I agree that it would be offensive to most.

 

[Quagmire]

Sometimes. But the jokes are rarely limited to those times. I just find it completely unnecessary to put fiction under moral constraints.

All fiction is going to wind up with a moral of some kind whether it's intended or not.

What about getting a laugh about something who fell of a cliff?

again: it's about the context.

And I wonder: if 1 out of every 5 people were likely to fall off a cliff sometime over the course their lifetime (that's roughly the % of women in the U.S. who will experience rape or attempted rape in their lifetimes) would it still be funny?

It doesn´t matter cause it´s not a real person.

Well then, I guess it's OK to crack racial jokes too. After all, the characters in the joke don't actually exist.

It´s the same when it comes to the raped person. It is just a joke. The subject of the joke does not exist,

Except for the millions of women who have actually lived through it.

 

[Me Myself]

again: it's about the context.

And I wonder: if 1 out of every 5 people were likely to fall off a cliff sometime over the course their lifetime (that's roughly the % of women in the U.S. who will experience rape or attempted rape in their lifetimes) would it still be funny?

[youtube]OtaahU5W1KM[/youtube]
Family Guy happy reindeer CZ - YouTube

How many people with cancer or with a relative with cancer?

and let´s be real, if you didn´t laugh there, you do not have a soul!

Well then, I guess it's OK to crack racial jokes too. After all, the characters in the joke don't actually exist.

Depending on the context I dont have problems with racial jokes. I´ve made a few, and been the subject of a few.

Racial jokes are not "always" "bad".

They are just jokes.

Except for the millions of women who have actually lived through it.

I am not in favor of making a joke about any real rape victim.

I do apologize my statement was ambiguous, when I said "subject" I didn´t mean the "subject: rape" I meant "subject" as in the victim of the joke is an hypothetical person, and this made up person is not real.

I do would say that rape jokes about actual people are generally wrong, for example, what this women laughed about was about a man with name and last name:

[youtube]VKgwczruOSQ[/youtube]
"THE TALK" hosts apology for laughing at man whose penis was cut off by wife over divorce, but fail! - YouTube

Ironically, if a group show of men had laughed about a woman having her boobs cut out by his husband because the wife mistreated him, I can imagine a lot less indulgence upon the people laughing.

I dont think any of the women there were that bad though. Ultimately they are not really condoning the act. They just had a laugh. They went with the flow of the moment. The problem is that they forgot the context that they are on air sharing a "group of friends" with thousands of people. Even they I would say it is gray. Not completely black as the OP tries to make it.

 

[Quagmire]

Look man, I give up.

You think rape is funny, I don't.

Lets just leave it at that.

 

[Me Myself]

I dont think rape is funny, just as I dont think falling of a cliff, cutting a man´s penis, cancer, a bomb to the face, a saw through the arm, etc are funny.

I do think you can make jokes about all of those that make people laugh, and that that is okay.

It´s kinda disappointing you reduce my point to "you think rape is funny" : /

 

[Lady B]

I think the secret is to know your audience and respect them in any joking atmosphere, If you make one person out of an audience of 100 cry from a rape joke, causing them to feel your laughing at their personal pain, you have failed and your joke is just not funny.

 

[Quagmire]

Just the fact that you think this is funny. . .

[youtube]OtaahU5W1KM[/youtube]
Family Guy happy reindeer CZ - YouTube

. . . shows me that there's no way I'm ever going to get you to see where I'm coming from on this topic.

I look at something like that and all I can think of is some poor schmuck who just got home from his chemo treatments, turning on a cartoon to get his mind off of his condition, and seeing something like that.

Ironically, a few years ago I was watching an episode of Family Guy and this was in it: [youtube]dVQ7zWozE5A[/youtube]
Elizabeth Smart Joke on Family Guy - YouTube

I haven't watched an episode since. I really don't understand how anybody even remotely human could find that funny.

It´s kinda disappointing you reduce my point to "you think rape is funny" : /

I don't see what else there is to do with it.

 

[Lady B]

Just the fact that you think this is funny. . .



. . . shows me that there's no way I'm ever going to get you to see where I'm coming from on this topic.

I look at something like that and all I can think of is some poor schmuck who just got home from his chemo treatments, turning on a cartoon to get his mind off of his condition, and seeing something like that.

Ironically, a few years ago I was watching an episode of Family Guy and this was in it: [youtube]dVQ7zWozE5A[/youtube]
Elizabeth Smart Joke on Family Guy - YouTube

I haven't watched an episode since. I really don't understand how anybody even remotely human could find that funny.




I don't see what else there is to do with it.

That is absolutely a terrible joke about elizabeth smart ! guess now I have seen my first rape joke and I am appalled and offended and I wonder how many rape victims thought that was funny, uuuuuuuuuuuugh

 

[Me Myself]

I agree on knowing your audience, but also knowing your comediant makes sense.

If the audience knows the comediant is that raw, why getting surprised?

Well I am sorry. Sometimes rape jokes are funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUVjZPVj1Pk

If you dont like them, dont put play. If you dont laugh about it, then you have bad taste but it´s cool. That doesn´t mean Carlin did anything wrong there.

 

[Me Myself]

I look at something like that and all I can think of is some poor schmuck who just got home from his chemo treatments, turning on a cartoon to get his mind off of his condition, and seeing something like that.

Well given ratings, I know people think Family Guy is completely hysterical.

 

[Quagmire]

Well given ratings, I know people think Family Guy is completely hysterical.

We live in a sick world. :yes:

 

[Me Myself]

We live in a sick world. :yes:

I can empathize about not laughing on an actual victim and to condemning such jokes. For the other though, we´ll agree to disagree.

Rape in itself may not be funny, but the nature of comedy is to turn tragedy into laughter. That is the nature of comedy. thanks god for that.

 

[Quagmire]

I can empathize about not laughing on an actual victim and to condemning such jokes. For the other though, we´ll agree to disagree.

Rape in itself may not be funny, but the nature of comedy is to turn tragedy into laughter.

That's also the nature of sadism.

That is the nature of comedy. thanks god for that.

As long as someone knows how to tell one from the other.