Rape or Religion?

[savagewind]

It's about the difference between what a person calls himself and what he is. Religion is the word for a set of doctrines and such. People say, "I am Catholic" or "I am a protestant", but they aren't invested in it. There are plenty of examples of religious people who believed in the precepts of Christianity and they by their choices made it known that they would not side with the evil because it went against their beliefs.

Some have said that "Christians" sided with the evil of WWII, but wasn't it fear and ignorance that drove them?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Was she ever raped? All that I remember is that her second husband was credited with inventing the "pop shot".

Different Tamar. Tamar the daughter of King David. She was raped by her half brother. The righteous King David did nothing about it. It wasn't until her brother Absalom who would later betray David killed her rapist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Different Tamar. Tamar the daughter of King David. She was raped by her half brother. The righteous King David did nothing about it. It wasn't until her brother Absalom who would later betray David killed her rapist.

I did not know about that one. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's about the difference between what a person calls himself and what he is. Religion is the word for a set of doctrines and such. People say, "I am Catholic" or "I am a protestant", but they aren't invested in it. There are plenty of examples of religious people who believed in the precepts of Christianity and they by their choices made it known that they would not side with the evil because it went against their beliefs.

Some have said that "Christians" sided with the evil of WWII, but wasn't it fear and ignorance that drove them?

Didn't I warn you about making a No True Scotsman fallacy?

 

[savagewind]

Didn't I warn you about making a No True Scotsman fallacy?

The theory is that it is a religion that causes a person to behave badly. If you liken religion to a book like some people do, could you say that it was the book that made them misbehave? Can a book do that? I don't think so!

 

[Subduction Zone]

The theory is that it is a religion that causes a person to behave badly. If you liken religion to a book like some people do, could you say that it was the book that made them misbehave? Can a book do that? I don't think so!

You do not seem to realize that it is through their Christian beliefs that they performed those bad behaviors. Organized religion gave them the ability to organize those actions. This should not be that hard to understand.

 

[savagewind]

You do not seem to realize that it is through their Christian beliefs that they performed those bad behaviors. Organized religion gave them the ability to organize those actions. This should not be that hard to understand.

No. The people who carried out the Nazi's evil plan were not organized. The Nazis were. I am not aware that the Nazi Party was a religious organization or even espousing Christianity.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No. The people who carried out the Nazi's evil plan were not organized. The Nazis were. I am not aware that the Nazi Party was a religious organization or even espousing Christianity.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Time after time Hitler appealed to the Christian beliefs of Germans. Attacking the Jews was a religious attack that would not have been possible without a Christian belief.

 

[savagewind]

Organized religion did not do much to stop the organization of other groups with evil intent. That doesn't make religions responsible for all the evil, or most of it. I certainly imagine that people know that 'no religions' doesn't mean no evil deeds.

And, if not doing something is a sin then everyone who ever was born is a sinner and all the people who are yet to be born are sinners too.

 

[savagewind]

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Time after time Hitler appealed to the Christian beliefs of Germans. Attacking the Jews was a religious attack that would not have been possible without a Christian belief.

I thought Hitler used economics to downgrade the Jews.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I thought Hitler used economics to downgrade the Jews.

Hitler used religion, though he did blame them for the economic woes. His beliefs were very similar to Martin Luther in respect to the Jews.

On the Jews & Their Lies

 

[Augustus]

Implying religion is worse than rape...

The main problem with this statement is that it assumes religion has done untold harms to society that far outweigh any benefits and that their replacement must necessarily lead to "something better". The 20th C showed this to be highly debatable.

Given the complexity of human society, it is literally impossible to know what the effect would be and if it would be positive or negative.

Choosing an ideologically inclined 'lucky dip' rather than choosing to prevent the unnecessary lang term suffering of millions of people who are raped is a highly immoral position in my opinion.

 

[Augustus]

The question is what is the net result. If the net of religion is still worse than rape then Harris was justified in his claim.

This would be impossible to quantify though, or even guess at with any degree of accuracy.

People looking at net harms tend to only look at 1 side of the equation "good things" - "bad things" done by religion X. Even this is flawed as it relates only to tangible, and highly visible aspects.

The 2nd and more important side of the equation is what would be the harms/benefits of the totality of the ideologies that arose in place of traditional religions, and what would be their influence over hundreds of years.

Having confidence that these are almost certainly going to be better is just blind faith.

 

[Augustus]

I thought Hitler used economics to downgrade the Jews.

It was mainly their association with Marxism/socialism and the perception that they had contributed to Germany's defeat in WWI, and were complicit in selling out the Germans at Versaille.

Jews were seen as being behind all the negative things that had happened in Germany's recent history, as well as the 'international banking cabal' trope.

 

[oldbadger]

View attachment 20242

Anyone agree with Sammy?

Implying religion is worse than rape...

If Sammy just happened to get dragged into a hedge on a dark night by an extremely violent and powerful madman and got raped at knife point, if you would ask him again whether he wanted to get rid of rape of religion, which do you think he would wave his magic wand at? That's if he still had a magic wand, of course.

He's a nut-job.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I did not know about that one. Thanks for the clarification.

It's one of the relative unknown bible stories. She's barely even mention and I think her story should be more well known.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The question is what is the net result. If the net of religion is still worse than rape then Harris was justified in his claim.

I get what you mean, but what value does the claim itself hold?
None, in my estimation. Or more accurately, it's harmful.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If Sammy just happened to get dragged into a hedge on a dark night by an extremely violent and powerful madman and got raped at knife point, if you would ask him again whether he wanted to get rid of rape of religion, which do you think he would wave his magic wand at? That's if he still had a magic wand, of course.

He's a nut-job.

I don't like defending his quote, since I completely disagree with it, and find it cheap.

However his point was not that rape isn't objectionable. His point was to grab 2 things he finds highly objectionable and rank them.

It's a pointless exercise, but I don't get why some want to argue against it from a 'he'd change his mind if he was raped' point if view. What if a priest molested him, his family was killed in a religious war, suicide bombers blew up his cat, etc?

'What if' is kinda pointless I think. He made a crap, thoughtless statement that's add nothing to his general arguments on religion, and is harmful to rational discussion. End of story.

 

[Fool]

You do not seem to realize that it is through their Christian beliefs that they performed those bad behaviors. Organized religion gave them the ability to organize those actions. This should not be that hard to understand.

people's belief systems in general catalyze people to do and not do things.


the more beliefs that people have in general with others the more organized the system becomes.


Self-organization - Wikipedia


the strange thing about all of this, are those who believe they are nothing like those they despise.


except for the grace of love, there go, I.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't like defending his quote, since I completely disagree with it, and find it cheap.

However his point was not that rape isn't objectionable. His point was to grab 2 things he finds highly objectionable and rank them.

It's a pointless exercise, but I don't get why some want to argue against it from a 'he'd change his mind if he was raped' point if view. What if a priest molested him, his family was killed in a religious war, suicide bombers blew up his cat, etc?

'What if' is kinda pointless I think. He made a crap, thoughtless statement that's add nothing to his general arguments on religion, and is harmful to rational discussion. End of story.

So we're in a kind of contentious agreement, really?

But 'No'! (I've had a difficult morning! )

When somebody states that they choose 'rape' over a whole mass of varying faiths and beliefs, it's a despicable suggestion far beyond 'crap thoughtless'. Whilst I wouldn't want 'rape in hedge or anywhere else' upon anybody, it would be interesting to ask the question again after any such sad experience.