Rape under Shariah

[Raymann]

There are certainly some Muslims who interpret the Quran in a way to allow them to rape women and girls. The Iranian theocracy has been doing that. They have been raping the political prisoners in prisons. That's well known in Iran. It is recorded that they raped virgin girls in prison, so, They may not go to heaven. They believe virgins go to heaven.

That certainly confirms my point.

But it doesn't mean all Muslims do that. Most of them do not..

No one (including me) on this thread has said that all Muslims are rapists. I would agree that the vast majority are not.
What we are saying is that the Muslim culture has an ingrained problem with rapists.
All the facts and the scarce statistics that are available point to that fact.
The west for some reason is too afraid of the so-called "Political Correctness" used against them so they opt for being the best accomplice of these criminals.
There are too many events that show what's happening that it is impossible to ignore.
Do you remember the mass raping that happened in Cologne, Germany a few years ago?
Have you forgotten about the many mass rapings that happened at Rock concerts, mostly in Sweden?
Have you heard the stories of young Swedish girls being victims of these Muslim immigrants?
Most of these cases in all events I mentioned are not part of any statistics but we all know what happened.
Denying the facts is just absurd at this point.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm a bit loathe to wade into this can of worms mainly for lack of knowledge, but what little i do know suggests to me that Muslims come in different calibres.

"Everywhere you find Muslims" suggests to me (whether the OP intended it that way or not) that you will find the same rates of rape amongst the Taliban as you would say amongst the Ahmadiyya or other relatively benign sects of Islam.

Perhaps the OP should actually study the differing sects of Islam because some of them do openly condemn rape including (crucially) people of the out group.

In my opinion.

 

[Raymann]

Perhaps the OP should actually study the differing sects of Islam because some of them do openly condemn rape including (crucially) people of the out group.

That would be an impossible task, don't you think?
You can point to any place in the world where there is a substantial Muslim community and I can guarantee you that I can find they have a problem with high rates of rapes.
That's a fact. Now, be careful with your interpretation of what I just said. The people committing these crimes represent 0.00001 % of the total Muslim population (just to give you a percentage), but still, the actual number of rapes is too high under any circumstances.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm being sincere. I'm having trouble connecting what you just said to our previous exchange, can you clarify? thanks

It's called context, knowing the books, and, big surprise and shock, a lot of Christians and Muslims suck at adhering to their own religious policy. Sure, there are some problematic passages and wording in the Quran, but it actually doesn't contain the aggressive kill them all elements of OT. Mostly, the violence of the Quran is ruthless aggression against those who hostile against Muslims, such as an invading nation. This is where we find things like kill them all.
And while, yes, that very much is a relic of the past when it made a lot of sense and was often a matter of survival to be feared in such a way, it still serves no good to take it out of context as an Islamaphobe would to mean a blanket killing for anyone Muslims deem a heretic, blasphemer, or whatnot. ISIS and Al Qaeda do that, Islamophobes do that, most Muslims don't. In fact, some people claim is the Quran, such as death for apostasy, isn't even in the Quran but a non-mainstream Hadith that most Muslims reject.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In before what can only be described as a strawman, where superficial English only contextless scripture is applied, not because they actually think it's more scholarly, but because it's an easier argument to knock down. So even though millions upon millions of Christians have no problem squaring their biblical interpretation with LGBT rights, people on both sides, literalist Christians and literalist atheists, will continue telling them what they must actually believe in, instead of addressing what they actually believe.

The Bible says what it says. The issues are with the typos and the less than crappy understanding of Judaism that went into creating and canonizing the NT and whole Bible. The Bible does call men who have sex with another guy an abomination and does command they be killed. It does condemn men who wear women's clothing. It has nasty, hateful words it labels LGBT people as, declares we will not inherit the Kingdom, and the God of Abraham does view us as abominations.
Now, of course Jesus tones down on the death and harshness, but he's still very clear you must follow the rules or it's off to eternal destruction and darkness with you.
This is all in the Bible, just as it does say "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," just as it blames women for bringing sin into the world.

 

[danieldemol]

That would be an impossible task, don't you think?

Well it would be difficult to study all of them, but to ask around about what the leaders of the sect say about rape of the out group should not be too difficult for at least a handful of them, and provided you take a fairly random handful I'm inclined to think that you will find that some of them openly condemn it.

You can point to any place in the world where there is a substantial Muslim community and I can guarantee you that I can find they have a problem with high rates of rapes.
That's a fact. Now, be careful with your interpretation of what I just said. The people committing these crimes represent 0.00001 % of the total Muslim population (just to give you a percentage), but still, the actual number of rapes is too high under any circumstances.

Sure, i mean any rate of rapes above zero is too high.
And I don't doubt that the Quran can be interpreted to permit institutionalised rape.

So I'm partly with you, I just think we should give any group prepared to openly condemn rape of the out group under all circumstances a chance to be considered differently to those who do endorse it.

In my opinion.

 

[stevecanuck]

... non-literalist Muslims ...

There's an interesting concept. The word 'muslim' means 'one who submits', and in the context of the religion of Islam, an understood 'to Allah's verbatim dictates and proclamations that are the Qur'an' follows it. Therefore anyone who considers himself an adherent Muslim is, by definition, a literalist.

A non-literalist Muslim would therefore be a Muslim in name only. Just because someone is born to a Muslim family in a Muslim land does NOT automatically make him a Muslim in his heart. His actions are the true measure.

 

[stevecanuck]

There are certainly some Muslims who interpret the Quran in a way to allow them to rape women and girls. The Iranian theocracy has been doing that. They have been raping the political prisoners in prisons. That's well known in Iran. It is recorded that they raped virgin girls in prison, so, They may not go to heaven. They believe virgins go to heaven.
But it doesn't mean all Muslims do that. Most of them do not.

They can justify raping prisoners because the Qur'an says that "those who your right hands possess" are fair game sexually. And it says it more than once.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Bigotry. Plain and simple. Arguing from our current standards about the world of centuries ago is wrong. Look at the difference between the status of women before Muhammad (girl babies murdered etc) and afterwards.

4 Beautiful Ways the Prophet Honoured Women

They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)

Aisha reported: I said, “O Messenger of Allah, is jihad a duty upon women?” The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Yes, jihad is a duty upon them in which there is no fighting: the Hajj and Umrah pilgrimages.”

Kathir ibn ‘Ubayd reported: Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, if a child was born to anyone from her family, she would not ask if it was a boy or a girl. Aisha would say, “Was it created healthy?” If the answer was yes, she would say, “All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.”

Abu Salih reported: Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, was committed to an old, disabled blind woman who lived on the outskirts of Medina. At night he would draw water for her and manage her affairs. When he came to her one time, he found that someone else had preceded him and taken care of what she needed. So Umar came to her more than once, lest someone come to her before him, and he lied in wait. He found that it was Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, may Allah be pleased with him, who had already come to her; he was Caliph at the time.

Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Whoever has three daughters, or three sisters, and he fears Allah regarding them and cares for them, he will be with me in Paradise like this,” and he held up his two fingers.

I dedicate my time and entire life hoping that the world will become filled with bridge builders like you who are free from hatred and prejudice. I truly admire your courage in standing up to prejudice.

If Muslims and Islam looked upon women so disdainfully then explain this.

List of female Muslim heads of government and state - Wikipedia

In the west we treat women by the millions as mere sex objects for porn and ads, there still has been no female leader in the supposed civilised USA while Islamic countries have had female prime ministers. Recently Burma imprisoned Aung Su Suu Kyi who won elections by 80% for 26 years which means she will die in prison just for being woman.

This thread is not about womens rights when it only mentions Muslims while there is so much abuse and discrimination of women in the west. That this thread deliberately omits and ignores Womens rights worldwide and focuses completely on Islam and Muslims makes it a just another Islam bashing thread.

Muslims are honest decent hard working peaceful people and although I am not a Muslim I view we have extremely serious issues in the west with Womens rights. There are good and bad in every race, culture and religion so I feel it is very unjust to single out one religion or culture as far as treatment of women because all nations especially the west are just as guilty of mistreatment of women.

 

[stevecanuck]

It's called context, knowing the books, and, big surprise and shock, a lot of Christians and Muslims suck at adhering to their own religious policy. Sure, there are some problematic passages and wording in the Quran, but it actually doesn't contain the aggressive kill them all elements of OT.

Yes it does. Verse 9:29 explicitly says to "fight those who believe not in Allah" until they either adopt Islam or surrender to live as second-class citizens under Islamic rule and pay the jizyah. When the mob does that it's call The Protection Racket.

Mostly, the violence of the Quran is ruthless aggression against those who hostile against Muslims, such as an invading nation. This is where we find things like kill them all.

Nope. If that's true then you'll have a difficult time explaining the creation of the vast Islamic empire within 100 years of Mohamed's death. What, for example, was the self defense imperative that took a Muslim army to the French village of Tours in 732?

And while, yes, that very much is a relic of the past when it made a lot of sense and was often a matter of survival to be feared in such a way, it still serves no good to take it out of context as an Islamaphobe would to mean a blanket killing for anyone Muslims deem a heretic, blasphemer, or whatnot. ISIS and Al Qaeda do that, Islamophobes do that, most Muslims don't. In fact, some people claim is the Quran, such as death for apostasy, isn't even in the Quran but a non-mainstream Hadith that most Muslims reject.

The word 'fasad' covers all the above. Are you familiar with the two lesbian Iranians on death row for advocating "fasad f'il ardi"? That translates to "corruption on earth", and the Qur'an warns against it dozens of times. Verse 5:33 says that those guilty of 'fasad f'il ardi' should be killed.

I'm going to assume you're a progressive western woman (if not, I will retract), and the absolute dead-last belief you should be defending is Islam. It stands for everything you would hate.

 

[stevecanuck]

..... non-mainstream Hadith that most Muslims reject.

How could you possibly know that? What's your source please?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes it does. Verse 9:29 explicitly says to "fight those who believe not in Allah" until they either adopt Islam or surrender to live as second-class citizens under Islamic rule and pay the jizyah. When the mob does that it's call The Protection Racket.



Nope. If that's true then you'll have a difficult time explaining the creation of the vast Islamic empire within 100 years of Mohamed's death. What, for example, was the self defense imperative that took a Muslim army to the French village of Tours in 732?



The word 'fasad' covers all the above. Are you familiar with the two lesbian Iranians on death row for advocating "fasad f'il ardi"? That translates to "corruption on earth", and the Qur'an warns against it dozens of times. Verse 5:33 says that those guilty of 'fasad f'il ardi' should be killed.

I'm going to assume you're a progressive western woman (if not, I will retract), and the absolute dead-last belief you should be defending is Islam. It stands for everything you would hate.

All you do is foam at the mouth about Islam and post a bunch of Islamophobic drivel. Such as, thank you so very much for taking out of context things I said those such as yourself take out of context.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How could you possibly know that? What's your source please?

It's called actually learning and not accepting bigoted, stupid bull****.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I'm criticizing IDEAS. Every individual Muslim is free to change their mind, right? (Okay, to be fair that's a bit of a "gotcha" question, because as we know, one of Islam's horrible ideas is that leaving the faith is a crime, sigh.)

So you tell me, how are we to compassionately tolerate the intolerant?

Through compassion and tolerance, obviously. Hate is not conquered hate. Hate is conquered by love.

 

[danieldemol]

Through compassion and tolerance, obviously. Hate is not conquered hate. Hate is conquered by love.

Personally I think exposing harm is being loving.

It is loving to the victim and perhaps also importantly loving to those who only harmed out of ignorance.

In my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Rape committed by Muslims is caused by Islam and the Islamic culture.

No it isn't.
I doubt whether these rapists are even practicing their religion.
All your rhetoric does is promote more hate.
..and that is hardly any solution.

There will always be people who feel superior to others.
Hitler was one of them.

 

[Five Solas]

This is a pretty big claim to make, considering rape statistics are extremely difficult to compare country to country, and rape is often severely under-reported in certain countries, so what info we have is patchy at best.

Nevertheless, let's take a look at what statistics we have. In order, the countries with the highest rape rates are:

1) Botswana - 92.93
(Majority religion: Christian - 79.1%, Islam: less than 1.4%)

2) Lesotho - 82.68
(Majority religion: Christian - 93%, Islam: less than 0.2%)

3) South Africa - 72.1
(Majority religion: Christian - 68%, Islam: 2%)

4) Bermuda - 67.29
(Majority religion: Christian - 71.1%, Islam: 1%)

5) Sweden - 63.54
(Majority religion: Christian - 64.9%, Islam: 2.3%)

6) Suriname - 45.21
(Majority religion: Christian - 48.4%, Islam: 13.9%)

7) Costa Rica - 36.7
(Majority religion: Christian - 94%, Islam: 0.1%)

8) Nicaragua - 31.6
(Majority religion: Christian - 83.1%, Islam: less than 1.6%)

9) Grenada - 30.63
(Majority religion: Christian - 86.4%, Islam: less than 5.5%)

10) Saint Kitts and Nevis - 28.62
(Majority religion: Christian - 87.6%, Islam: 0.52%)

SOURCES:
Rape Statistics by Country 2022
Religion in Botswana - Wikipedia
Religion in Lesotho - Wikipedia
Religion in South Africa - Wikipedia
Bermuda Religions - Demographics
Religion in Sweden - Wikipedia
Religion in Suriname - Wikipedia
Religion in Costa Rica - Wikipedia
Religion in Nicaragua - Wikipedia
Grenada - Wikipedia
Saint Kitts and Nevis - Wikipedia

So, based on the statistics we have at hand (that are admittedly incomplete, at the very least), we can say that the conclusion assumed by your question/premise is flawed.

/thread

Rape in Africa has no direct correlation to religion. It's mostly cultural.
You are jumping to conclusions that distort the argument.

Rape is condemned in the strongest possible terms within Christianity.

 

[Raymann]

Well it would be difficult to study all of them, but to ask around about what the leaders of the sect say about rape of the out group should not be too difficult for at least a handful of them, and provided you take a fairly random handful I'm inclined to think that you will find that some of them openly condemn it.

The problem is that I don't think any Muslim sect or group would openly claim they don't mind raping kufars (infidels).
So in practice, all Muslim leaders and Muslims, in general, would agree they condemn raping.
The rapists themselves would deny it too, they would be the first to deny it. No thief is ever going to admit he is a thief.
See the rapists are a relatively small group that like any other criminal hides the appearance of being a criminal.
All we know is the number of victims and these victims identify these criminals and in most cases, they are described as Muslim immigrants.

 

[Raymann]

Rape in Africa has no direct correlation to religion. It's mostly cultural.
You are jumping to conclusions that distort the argument.

You didn't understand my point. I know that Muslims are not the only people committing rape.
Probably in all groups of people, races, and cultures, there are those who rape women.
My point is that within the Muslim communities rape seems to be more prevalent than in other groups.
The study I linked tells us that a Muslim from the Muslim community is 79 times more likely to commit rape than a swede man.
Do you understand my point now?
79 times more prevalent to commit rape.
That means 79 Muslims would commit rape by the time 1 European would.
That is significant.

 

[Raymann]

I doubt whether these rapists are even practicing their religion.
All your rhetoric does is promote more hate.
..and that is hardly any solution.

So what is your idea of a solution?
You want me to shut up and by doing that ignore the problem. Is that sound like a solution to you?