Rape under Shariah

[rational experiences]

In other words women should never be stoned to death.

Nor should homosexual men. As brother and brother were innocent too.

Only the rapist man should as his brain changed the answer by man of science.

Which then says....if a man stoned lost his brothers life and mind by stoning....in science terms converting mass...who then throws the first stone upon a victim?

 

[danieldemol]

Ok, let me put it this way, I believe many laws in Islam allow rapists to go unpunished. These are religious laws straight from the Quran and Hadith.
Let me ask you a simple question:
If a Muslim woman is raped and as a knowledgeable Muslim this woman won't press any charges against the rapist in fear the Islamic law could end up killing her by stoning.
Don't you think something is wrong here?
She could be charged with adultery by admitting to having sex outside of marriage and not proving it was rape.
The rapist like any other Muslim will realize there is no punishment for rape in reality.
Do you understand my point?
Their own religion is teaching them there is no punishment for rape.
Do you know that to accuse a woman of adultery you need 4 witnesses who actually saw the sex taking place?
What kind of nonsense is that? Really?
In some cases, I don't know who to blame, Muslims or Islam?
I would say Islam has a lot to do with it.
You tell me where am I wrong.

I'm not here to defend the Quran and/or hadith.

What im saying is apologists change their religion through their up is really down black is really white toolbox and post-hoc rationalisation toolbox and cherrypicking toolbox.

If a Sheikh is prepared to say that rape of the out-group and the in group is forbidden under all circumstances for his followers his interpretation of the Quran becomes the correct one in their eyes. They aren't likely to check it out for themselves, it seems to me that many Muslims follow their sheikhs blindly.

So for those sects which have a leader prepared to blanket ban rape I think we should treat those Muslims differently to the Muslims that do permit rape.

There is still value to exposing those who take a more medieval approach to interpreting Islam, just understand that it is not all Muslims who are interpreting the Quran and Sunnah like that.

In my opinion.

 

[Raymann]

So for those sects which have a leader prepared to blanket ban rape I think we should treat those Muslims differently to the Muslims that do permit rape.

There is still value to exposing those who take a more medieval approach to interpreting Islam, just understand that it is not all Muslims who are interpreting the Quran and Sunnah like that.

I understand your point but my accusation is very general. I state that rape is very high in Muslim communities but I don't know in any given community what type of Muslims live there. That is impossible to determine. Even the official authorities are now avoiding the mention of the religion and even race of the perpetrators.
It is called "Political Correctness".
The officials are afraid to point fingers at specific groups so we don't have any idea who these rapists are in detail, all we know from some sources (usually the victims) is that they are Muslim immigrants.

 

[icehorse]

They also choose to never hurt anyone. A Muslim can actually be a good human being, just like yourself can choose to be good or chose to be an evil *******.

Are you saying a Muslim can't choose to be good? They have to do evil?

I don't think anyone here is saying that. My take is that Islam is like an anchor that weighs Muslims down and makes everything in life harder. So a Muslim is a fine person IN SPITE OF the Quran, not because of i.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't think anyone here is saying that. My take is that Islam is like an anchor that weighs Muslims down and makes everything in life harder. So a Muslim is a fine person IN SPITE OF the Quran, not because of i.

In my understanding, without attacking anyone, I believe certain people here in RF do not see what islam do good to mostly all who follow it. But yes just as in any other society you find Muslims who do wrong because of the quran that does not make Islam, Qur'an or Muslims in general evil..

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In my understanding, without attacking anyone, I believe certain people here in RF do not see what islam do good to mostly all who follow it. But yes just as in any other society you find Muslims who do wrong because of the quran that does not make Islam, Qur'an or Muslims in general evil..

Well, yes, liberal Islam. Not the other end. But that is because it is so authoritative. That is not unique to Islam.

 

[icehorse]

In my understanding, without attacking anyone, I believe certain people here in RF do not see what islam do good to mostly all who follow it. But yes just as in any other society you find Muslims who do wrong because of the quran that does not make Islam, Qur'an or Muslims in general evil..

I think Muslims are good people because their cultures are strong enough to withstand the evil messages in their scripture. To be clear, I feel the same way about Christians. I think both groups are anchored to evil scripture that makes their lives harder than necessary.

So I disagree that Islam and Christianity do good. Or more precisely, I think they do more harm than good.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It was not out of context. It was a direct rebuttal to an incorrect assertion made by @Shadow Wolf.



This thread is about Islamic law. Start a different one if you want to get into whataboutism.

BTW, given you have only ever made anti-Islam threads and railing against Islam and Muslims seems be about all you do here I don't take you seriously and I'm not replying. You clearly haven't actually read much into this, and it's a waste of time and a meh to me. Regardless you'll probably walk away feeling superior with your ability to grab lists of complaints off Google.

 

[danieldemol]

I understand your point but my accusation is very general. I state that rape is very high in Muslim communities but I don't know in any given community what type of Muslims live there. That is impossible to determine. Even the official authorities are now avoiding the mention of the religion and even race of the perpetrators.
It is called "Political Correctness".
The officials are afraid to point fingers at specific groups so we don't have any idea who these rapists are in detail, all we know from some sources (usually the victims) is that they are Muslim immigrants.

Well it is done to avoid racial and or religious profiling according to my understanding.

Perhaps we need to at least ask the questions,
1. Is there a way to avoid profiling *and* identify real problems that are more acute in some communities?

And

2. Are the steps undertaken to avoid profiling achieving what they set out to achieve? After all i suppose if the public still profiles based on victim interviews perhaps there is no point to not collecting the statistics officially anyway.

I'm honestly not sure of the answers here but I can see the questions do at least need to be asked.

However I question the assertion that it is impossible to know what kind of Muslims live in an area. There are people who study these types of questions and come up with reliable answers. Perhaps what you mean is that it is not possible for you to know. But just because you don't know doesn't mean nobody else does.

In my opinion.

 

[stevecanuck]

A Muslim follow Allah, word of Allah is the Quran. The Quran is Islam.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

When you critique Islam the way you do, you both put yourself above Allah and every Muslim.

And when a Muslim reply to you, you do not listen to their understanding of their own faith and belief.
You just say but but but....

I read the Qur'an and report what it says.

 

[stevecanuck]

I don't have to give you examples because 99.9 % your replies to Muslims are negative critique so you know that you are biased

If you can't back up what you say with quotes from me, why do you embarrass yourself by making it evident?

 

[stevecanuck]

BTW, given you have only ever made anti-Islam threads and railing against Islam and Muslims seems be about all you do here I don't take you seriously and I'm not replying. You clearly haven't actually read much into this, and it's a waste of time and a meh to me. Regardless you'll probably walk away feeling superior with your ability to grab lists of complaints off Google.

Tell me just one thing I've said about Islam/the Qur'an that is factually wrong.

 

[stevecanuck]

blah, blah ..... your ability to grab lists of complaints off Google.

I've been reading the Qur'an for over 20 years. I summarized it a couple of years ago, and many of my posts are from that summary. I realize that doesn't come close to your encyclopedic knowledge, but I do my best.

 

[stevecanuck]

Is there a way to avoid profiling *and* identify real problems that are more acute in some communities?

Sadly, the answer seems to be a resounding "no". Any attempt to point out anomalous negative activity/outcomes in a definable minority community is immediately met with spittle-flecked accusations of racism. Facts will not be tolerated.

 

[stevecanuck]

... Muslims who do wrong because of the quran that does not make Islam, Qur'an ... evil..

It would be difficult to imagine a more blatant self-contradiction.

 

[stevecanuck]

I think Muslims are good people because their cultures are strong enough to withstand the evil messages in their scripture. To be clear, I feel the same way about Christians. I think both groups are anchored to evil scripture that makes their lives harder than necessary.

So I disagree that Islam and Christianity do good. Or more precisely, I think they do more harm than good.

As an atheist who does not have a god in this fight, I disagree with this assessment. The NT rescues Christianity IMO. The mythical character named Jesus taught and practiced peace. In one verse he speaks of bringing a sword, not peace, but never did he actually use or encourage others to use said sword. In fact, he did the opposite. When he was being arrested he stopped his disciple from defending him and even healed the wound of the soldier who was taking him into custody. Christians acted as barbarians for many hundreds of years, but they had to defy Jesus to do so.

 

[icehorse]

As an atheist who does not have a god in this fight, I disagree with this assessment. The NT rescues Christianity IMO. The mythical character named Jesus taught and practiced peace. In one verse he speaks of bringing a sword, not peace, but never did he actually use or encourage others to use said sword. In fact, he did the opposite. When he was being arrested he stopped his disciple from defending him and even healed the wound of the soldier who was taking him into custody. Christians acted as barbarians for many hundreds of years, but they had to defy Jesus to do so.

Much of the fictional Jesus's message was positive, I agree.

But basing his message on being a scape goat wipes out a lot of the good, imo.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

rape is often severely under-reported in certain countries

Indeed. And it is pretty well known in which countries that problem is the biggest.
Likely, you know too.

Tell us all which countries these are and what the reason is for the under-reporting.

So, based on the statistics we have at hand (that are admittedly incomplete, at the very least), we can say that the conclusion assumed by your question/premise is flawed.

True. But, there's a "but".
It would be interesting to know the demographic spread of the rapists themselves.
Of the rapists in those countries, what's the share that are atheist, christian, muslim,...
And how does that compare to the demographic of the population at large in that country?


For example, say that a country has 0.05 % hindu's (to name just a random group - not making any insinuations) and it turns out that 70% of rapists in said country are in fact hindu's... I'ld say that that would require an explanation. In this fictional example, we would have to try and explain what it is about that minority that makes it have such a large share in rape, right?

So, I'ld be interested in those numbers.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I even acknowledged this in my post. The point is that the OP alleged rape rates were high. Since rape is under-reported in many countries, we have very little to support that claim. What data we do have, however, contradicts the claim. How can you make the claim that Islam = high rape rates when you don't have a look at the rape rates?

Just looking at the rape rates isn't enough unless you also include the demographic spread of the rapists.
Of those reported rapes, who are the rapists?

It's a "dog ate my homework" situation. It's most definitely true that rape rates are most likely higher than reported in many Muslim countries - but you can't make a claim about Muslim countries having higher rape rates if you don't have those rape rates either way.

But you certainly can ask the question what it is about muslim countries that apparently so few rapes are being reported that they don't even show up on your graph..................

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's not inherently irrational. But it is when you are barking at a caricature of the worst Muslims out there and saying that's the entirety.

@icehorse has done nothing of the sort. He has consistently been talking about IDEAS embedded into islamic doctrine. He isn't talking about muslims. Obviously, people who think terrible ideas are actually good ideas and live by them, are going to be doing horrible things.

But he's not barking at the people. He's barking at the ideas.
There is no issue with barking at bad ideas. It's perfectly fine. In fact, I'ld even dare say that it would be irresponsible NOT to bark at bad ideas.

Like when this barking seems entirely ignorant of the context of what they cite, such as how much of violence in the Quran is commanded as self defense, and establishes guidelines and rules that groups like ISIS do violate.

Sorry, but the sheer amount of brutal islamic groups like Isis is SO HUGE that I can't take it seriously when somebody suggest it is disconnected from Islam.

Such islamic terror groups aren't a footnote in the middle east. They are not the "exception" like the Phelps in the US with their "god hates fa_gs" picketting.

In fact, there are ENTIRE NATIONS that are ruled upon such foundations, like Taliban's Afghanistan.
Also remember back the polls that were conducted when people were asked if they supported Bin Laden's al-qaida "crusade". The amount of people that did was just staggering. Even in western nations. We're not talking about some hellhole village in the remote mountains of afghanistan here.

When the WTC fell, people were literally dancing in the street in plenty of islamic cities.
When a cartoonist made a cartoon, embassies were burned down and people were killed by MASSES of people.


No, it's not a majority within the 1.2 billion muslims in the world.
But remember that, say, 10% of 1.2 billion muslims still amounts to 120 MILLION people.

For example, look at this:

Muslim Publics Share Concerns about Extremist Groups | Pew Research Center


The article is presented as saying that "most muslims are concerned about extremism" or "against al-qaida" and alike. Which is true. But take a step back and look at the reverse of that statement.

Yes, 53% of muslims in Indonesia and 69% of muslims in Egypt are unfavorable to Al qaida.
Great. Good news? I say no. When I see those stats, I can only think "ONLY 53???? ONLY 69?????"

The reverse is that respectively 23% and 20% is favorable to al-qaida. Do you know how many people that is?

That's 1 in 5 Egyptians and almost 1 in 4 Indonesians.

Yes, technically a "minority", but far too many to pretend it is disconnected from Islam as a whole.

There are christians denominations that are smaller then that in the christian world and nobody would ever say that those denominations are "disconnected" from christianity.


None of this is "islamophobia". Instead, it is just having the courage to face the facts.

Such numbers are HUGE and they require an explanation. And I don't see how any such explanation is possible, without also including islam into it.