rapture QUESTIONS

[WALL]

As the woman said, the Bride of Christ is the Church.

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

The bride, backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Yup. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel just as the old testament scriptures say.

 

[WALL]

Are there any scriptures that claim the bride is the church? If there is...I cant find them. So if the bride is Israel wheres that leave the gentiles?

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope.

ISAIAH 56 [1] Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for MY SALVATION IS NEAR to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

GATHER....THEM WILL I BRING! Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. Yes, the “others” {John 10v16} {Isaiah 56v8}are the gentiles. So when the LAST TRUMPET {1Cor.15} sounds we meet the Lord in the air and Jesus “brings” us to His holy mountain in Jerusalem for the 1000yr period of rest. Not off to heaven as the Rapturist claim.

 

[Shiranui117]

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

The bride, backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Yup. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel just as the old testament scriptures say.

Ephesians 5 says otherwise:
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

The Church is the New Israel, the Israel of God, the true sons of Abraham by faith. (Galatians 6:16) Those who reject Christ reject their Messiah, and so have cut themselves off from the Israel of God.

See this from Hebrews 2:
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[b]

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


We must be very careful with the heresy of dispensationalism.

 

[Shiranui117]

Are there any scriptures that claim the bride is the church? If there is...I cant find them. So if the bride is Israel wheres that leave the gentiles?

Part of Israel. The disbelieving Jews cut themselves off from the Israel of God, the Church.

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope.

At the end of time, they will indeed be part of the Kingdom of God. But we creatures will experience Heaven on Earth, within the New Jerusalem.

GATHER....THEM WILL I BRING! Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. Yes, the “others” {John 10v16} {Isaiah 56v8}are the gentiles. So when the LAST TRUMPET {1Cor.15} sounds we meet the Lord in the air and Jesus “brings” us to His holy mountain in Jerusalem for the 1000yr period of rest. Not off to heaven as the Rapturist claim.

So how many times does Jesus come again? Once at Armageddon, and once at the Judgement? That's three times that Christ comes.

 

[WALL]

Ephesians 5 says otherwise:
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

The Church is the New Israel, the Israel of God, the true sons of Abraham by faith. (Galatians 6:16) Those who reject Christ reject their Messiah, and so have cut themselves off from the Israel of God.

It really doesn't say otherwise. Your making the jump that the sunday morning go to meeting people are His church. They are not.

EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

We gentiles were once strangers from Gods covenants of promise, having no hope. BUT NOW in Christ, should we take hold of those covenants, we have hope

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

Even them (us gentile strangers mentioned in Ephes.2) will He bring to His holy mountain {at the 1 Cor.15 event}, if we should take hold of His sabbath covenant. Jesus will bring us to the 1000yr period of rest

 

[WALL]

So how many times does Jesus come again?

Only once. Its on the Day of the Lord during the 1Cor.15 event and Hes here to stay.

 

[WALL]

We must be very careful with the heresy of dispensationalism.

I aint no dipsy doodle

 

[outhouse]

Only once. Its on the Day of the Lord during the 1Cor.15 event and Hes here to stay.

Dont hold your breath waiting! :biglaugh:

 

[outhouse]

I aint no dipsy doodle

Who do you think you are?


Preach much?

 

[WALL]

What are you asking? Preach much? Im not sure why you ask that question. Am I preaching by posting scripture? If so, im guilty

 

[outhouse]

. Am I preaching by posting scripture? If so, im guilty

This is a debate forum not one for you to proselytize.


So far every person who has ever lived who has preached the end is coming ALL have one thing in common.

They were all dead wrong. :slap:

 

[WALL]

This is a debate forum not one for you to proselytize.


So far every person who has ever lived who has preached the end is coming ALL have one thing in common.

They were all dead wrong. :slap:

I am debating. I say there is no "rapture" as is preached amoung the sunday go to meetin peoples. If you are amoung those peoples I would love to hear from you. If not put the toilet seat down when your finished

 

[WALL]

Most Rapturist claim the 1Cor.15 event {they call the rapture} happens before the tribulation and some claim it occurs at mid tribulation but what does the Word say

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem for the 1000yr period of rest. Not headin for heaven. How do the Rapturist get around these scriptures?

 

[we-live-now]

When the 1Cor.15 event {the rapture} takes place can anyone find anything about goin to heaven at the time of that event? Could we be headed elsewhere?

Jesus did tell the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in Paradise" and that word can also mean "Garden" as in Garden of Eden. I believe this is a temporary place until the rapture and we return to Earth. Also, check this out: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels" Heb 12:22. We have already come to Mount Zion. Thus, I actually believe that every true believer is in Heaven now at least his Spirit is which is his true essence. Remember, we are called "foreigners" or "sojourners" on earth now. Our true citizenship is in Heaven now. Our Spirit inside us is in a different realm NOW in Christ though our body is on earth yet.

Very cool question.

we-live-now

 

[Muffled]

Oh no, it existed, alright. It's just that absolutely no one ever thought that 1Thessalonians 4 was implying any sort of Rapture. It's about the resurrection of the dead and the Last Judgement, not about people getting whisked off the planet and leaving everyone else behind. The Rapture is a newfangled belief that twists Scripture out of context, the result of Protestants thinking that they're too good to go through the Tribulation and everything else that's going to go down in Revelation.

"Because God totally never said that Christians would be persecuted, martyred and hated by the world! Nope, God's gonna sweep us off our feet and take us into Heaven and the Good Ol' Boys' Club while the rest of the world burns. Because we're so much better than those poor sinners. They deserve what's coming, and we're gonna be sitting up on a cloud and laughing."

That's the way I see the thought processes of those who believe in the Rapture. It's an inherent unwillingness to actually suffer for Christ's sake, a naive hope that we will never have to be persecuted or face hardship because of our faith.

I believe at least you have managed to read the text and understand that there is a resurrection but how did you manage to miss the people being "caught up in the clouds." Also I don't believe the text says anything about judgement.

I believe it is highly likely that people just gloss over a text and never get the meaning.

I believe you will have a very difficult time proving this. A bird is a bird and a fox is a fox and when we see a fox it is absolute nonsense for you to say it is a bird and that we have twisted our understanding of what it is.

I have no idea what motivated those who first discovered this but I believe it is certainly not a motivation for me. I simply see the text and understand it. However I do appreciate getting off the earth before it is consumed by fire.

I believe this is an erroneous view. Protestants recognize salvation by grace which means that we aren't any better and don't have to be.

I believe anyone refusing Go'ds salvation deserves what he gets.

I don't believe so. I have taken up my cross and followed Jesus, so I am willing to go through what He wishes me to go through. However I am not as some who think self flagellation is a path to holiness.

 

[Muffled]

Only once. Its on the Day of the Lord during the 1Cor.15 event and Hes here to stay.

I believe I Cor addresses false doctrine and is not an event. No doubt Paul speaks of an event in his discourse when he mentions "His coming." However the coming appears to be a series of events and the Day of the Lord may only be one of those events and not neceesarily connected to the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Muffled]

This is a debate forum not one for you to proselytize.


So far every person who has ever lived who has preached the end is coming ALL have one thing in common.

They were all dead wrong. :slap:

I believe the end will come whether people are able to predict when it will come or not.

All you are left with is a boy who cried wolf story without any proof that the wolf doesn't exist because no-one has seen him yet.

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe at least you have managed to read the text and understand that there is a resurrection but how did you manage to miss the people being "caught up in the clouds." Also I don't believe the text says anything about judgement.

That's because you're ignoring the fact that the dead are only resurrected right before the Judgement. 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the general resurrection of the dead, which will only happen right before the Great Judgement spoken of in Revelation 20.

People being "caught up in the clouds" has nothing to do with people being physically moved off the Earth to Heaven while the Tribulation happens. God's presence is often spoken of as a cloud (remember the cloud that accompanies the Israelites, and Jesus' Transfiguration). A key to knowing that this is about the Last Judgement is the end of verse 17: "And we will always be with the Lord." Meaning, we will experience Heaven, which is in and of itself the presence and love of God--and Heaven is experienced on Earth, in the New Jerusalem.

I believe it is highly likely that people just gloss over a text and never get the meaning.

Let me assure you that that is not the case. With all the allegories, typologies, analogies and other exegetical techniques the Church Fathers used to pick apart the entire Bible, even the more obscure parts of the Old Testament, they definitely

I believe you will have a very difficult time proving this. A bird is a bird and a fox is a fox and when we see a fox it is absolute nonsense for you to say it is a bird and that we have twisted our understanding of what it is.

Which is exactly what I say to those who believe in the Rapture.

I have no idea what motivated those who first discovered this but I believe it is certainly not a motivation for me. I simply see the text and understand it. However I do appreciate getting off the earth before it is consumed by fire.

Then you're completely ignoring the whole point of Revelation, which is that those who endure to the end will receive the crown of life. Jesus Himself said that we will be hated by the world, and those who endure to the end shall be saved.

I believe this is an erroneous view. Protestants recognize salvation by grace which means that we aren't any better and don't have to be.

Some are. Others become complacent in the idea that they'll be saved no matter what they do, and look down on others who aren't "saved," because they're going to Hell.

I believe anyone refusing Go'ds salvation deserves what he gets.

There's a difference between refusing vs. not being aware of it, or not knowing why they should accept it.

I don't believe so. I have taken up my cross and followed Jesus, so I am willing to go through what He wishes me to go through. However I am not as some who think self flagellation is a path to holiness.

And good on you for that. Far too many, however, would and do fall away when the going gets tough.

 

[kaoticprofit]

The rapture isn't that difficult to figure out. The rapture happens in Revelation 14.

One reason for the rapture could be to prevent, "friendly fire."

We know from scripture and by the Words of Jesus that...

The rapture will occur in the clouds of the sky.
That the angels would do the gathering.
It would occur at the sound of a trumpet.
According to Jesus it would occur at the end of tribulation.
And that the righteous dead are resurrected first.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory......And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

God's 'elect' always refers to Christians in the New Testament. Proof of this is in the following scriptures....
Matthew 20:16, John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.

We know it will occur at the sound of a trumpet of God, SPECIFICALLY THE LAST and SEVENTH TRUMPET. (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 11:15, Mt. 24:31).

The seventh trump sounds here....
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh trumpet covers a great expanse of scripture going from Revelation 11:15 up the chapter 15.

We know that the angels do the gathering of Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39. Mathew 24:31.)

The rapture and the resurrection is a time of reaping and harvest.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mark 4:28-29 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

The gathering will take place in the the clouds of the sky (Mt. 24:30; 1 Thess. 4:17).

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Before the rapture Christ first raises the righteous dead.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe the gathering in Mathew 24:31 is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation."

Revelation 14:14......here is the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of the living righteous.

Jesus resurrects the dead. A sickle is an instrument of harvest.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the rapture where the angels do the harvesting.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him (an angel) that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
The great winepress is another topic all it's own.

 

[Muffled]

That's because you're ignoring the fact that the dead are only resurrected right before the Judgement. 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the general resurrection of the dead, which will only happen right before the Great Judgement spoken of in Revelation 20.

People being "caught up in the clouds" has nothing to do with people being physically moved off the Earth to Heaven while the Tribulation happens. God's presence is often spoken of as a cloud (remember the cloud that accompanies the Israelites, and Jesus' Transfiguration). A key to knowing that this is about the Last Judgement is the end of verse 17: "And we will always be with the Lord." Meaning, we will experience Heaven, which is in and of itself the presence and love of God--and Heaven is experienced on Earth, in the New Jerusalem.

Let me assure you that that is not the case. With all the allegories, typologies, analogies and other exegetical techniques the Church Fathers used to pick apart the entire Bible, even the more obscure parts of the Old Testament, they definitely

Which is exactly what I say to those who believe in the Rapture.

Then you're completely ignoring the whole point of Revelation, which is that those who endure to the end will receive the crown of life. Jesus Himself said that we will be hated by the world, and those who endure to the end shall be saved.

Some are. Others become complacent in the idea that they'll be saved no matter what they do, and look down on others who aren't "saved," because they're going to Hell.

There's a difference between refusing vs. not being aware of it, or not knowing why they should accept it.

And good on you for that. Far too many, however, would and do fall away when the going gets tough.

One simply can't make this statement without proving it. It isn't as though the I Thess. text says that the general resurrection will occur in Rev 20.

That is a nice concept but it ignores the text which says "meet the Lord in the air:." If the cloud were on earth it would say meet the Lord on earth.

It says nothing about Heaven. The clouds are in the air or more often as we refer to it the sky.

However that does not mean that God has destined us to be burned up in fire.