tytlyf
Not Religious
Nothing original comes from esmith. It's just the rights talking points parroted 24/7. If he only knew they were taking advantage of them.
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Rasing the minimum wage could cost jobs
- Thread starter esmith
- Start date
tytlyf
Not Religious
It's true. I know you guys support each other and you like defending what he says, but it's nothing more than propaganda spouted from the typical right-wing outlets. No facts, nothing of substance. The best thing one could do is change your sources in these situations. But clearly the brainwashing is so thick that any 'outside' information is shunned solely on the source. Kinda like when fox/rush saturate their audience with demonizing all media besides what they approve of to push the agenda.
I'm such a bi***, but you know I just had to post this!
Pretty obvious to me.
Are you trying to break my irony meter?
It's the old fashioned style with a needle.
When you go above max it pegs the needle & breaks the mechanism.
I told you so....
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Alceste
Vagabond
In fairness to esmith, he did link to an article in Slate. Unfortunately, it had nothing to do with the talking point he is trying to defend. Interesting article though!
dust1n
Zindīq
Hmm, unfortunately, I'm not sure many do, if anyone does at all.
In the short run, I say we need to beef up education in the sciences & skilled trades.
It's the right thing to do, but we'll still face a growing population of unemployed people.
esmith
Veteran Member
First if you look at the first post I think Mr Gates said that raising the minimum wage could hurt jobs. I then postulated that if the wage of workers was raised to the point where it would be more economical to replace some human employees with machines then business might do so. Thus it follows if wages, included minimum wages, were raised to the aforementioned point then jobs might be lost. Thus I am not "defending" the point, all I am doing is presenting the facts expressed in the aforementioned links.
Alceste
Vagabond
And if wishes were fishes, the whole world would stink.
Nobody's replacing chambermaids and burger flippers with robots any time soon, even if their labour costs an extra buck or two per hour. And the jobs that are being lost to technology (paper pushers and assembly line workers) were never minimum wage jobs to begin with and they're being lost anyway.
Plus, speaking from the perspective of an ex professional paper pusher, I am definitely not complaining about how much easier and more efficient computers made my job.
One of my first gigs in an office was this: my supervisor - an older lady - would go into a database, print off thousands of employee discipline records, put them on my desk, and I'd type them into an Excel spreadsheet. After two days of this, I went over to her and said "Hey, is there any reason I can't directly access the original database myself?"
So from that day forward me and a team of 4 data entry clerks all went straight into the digital files and copied them over into the new database instead of typing them in from paper. This cut our workload down to about 10% of what it originally had been.
Did anybody lose their jobs over it? Hard to say, but I think I would have literally keeled over and died if I'd had to sit there for one more day watching this woman carefully print things off at her computer, carry them over to me and my colleagues, and make us type them back into our computers. And, cutting the time that project took down to 10% of what it otherwise would have been freed up funds within the company to create other jobs that weren't completely stupid.
All quotes from Henry Ford in purple; my commentary in black.
"Henry Ford in a statement said: 'No one loses anything by raising wages as soon as he is able. It has always paid us. Low wages are the most costly any employer can pay. It is like using low-grade material--the waste makes it very expensive in the end. There is no economy in cheap labor or cheap material. The hardest thing I ever had to do was to reduce wages. I think we were the last big company to come to it. Now I am mighty glad that wages are climbing again."
Modern day business is treating its employees like so much cheap material. It's sad how much we've forgotten, being brainwashed by Reaganomics and similar ilk.
"See what a 25-cent raise will do to us," said Mr. Ford. So they figured the daily & monthly cost of a 25-cent increase. "Put on another quarter & see what that will cost," he said. And so they went on,25 cents a step...Finally the wage of $2.34 stood at $4.75--more than 100 percent increase. One of the associates--a good financial head--remarked rather sarcastically that if they were going to be fools, why not be first-class fools & make it $5..."All right," said Mr. Ford, "let's make it $5."
I wonder, are there any brave and visionary businessmen or women left?
'"From the start I had my own ideas about how the business should run. I wanted it to benefit everybody who contributed to its success-stockholders, labor and the American public."
What a concept! So the bottom line doesn't necessarily have to be the only bottom line.
"Paying good wages is not charity at all-it is the best kind of business."
Repeat this over and over again to yourself. Asking for higher wages is not asking for a handout. It is not asking for money that you haven't earned. It is not taking money from those who have earned it. It is merely asking for a share of the wealth that you have helped create from those who currently control it.
"If the boss stands in the way of men getting what they earn, he is not fit to be boss."
Many a CEO or top tier management could use to hear this.
'"A low wage business is always insecure."
Pull up your big boy pants and stop stealing from your employees.
'"Cutting wages is not the way to recovery. Raise wages and improve the product."
It is a pretty convoluted theory that would come up with the solution that paying people less will help the economy. But I suppose it speaks to the greedier, cowardly parts of people, thereby allowing it to have gained such a foothold upon our business sector.
It is not the employer who pays the wages. Employers only handle the money. It is the customer who pays the wages.
This may be my favorite, and I have long felt it to be true. Businesses DO NOT create jobs. Demand creates jobs. People willing and ABLE to buy a product or service creates jobs. We create jobs. All of us. Currently, the business sector is strangling the goose that it laying their golden eggs.
“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”
This sums everything up, of course. A healthy economy needs not only profitable businesses but profitable workers. This isn't rocket science. It's funny though. Not only have our CEOs forgotten this. We have forgotten it ourselves.
"Henry Ford in a statement said: 'No one loses anything by raising wages as soon as he is able. It has always paid us. Low wages are the most costly any employer can pay. It is like using low-grade material--the waste makes it very expensive in the end. There is no economy in cheap labor or cheap material. The hardest thing I ever had to do was to reduce wages. I think we were the last big company to come to it. Now I am mighty glad that wages are climbing again."
Modern day business is treating its employees like so much cheap material. It's sad how much we've forgotten, being brainwashed by Reaganomics and similar ilk.
"See what a 25-cent raise will do to us," said Mr. Ford. So they figured the daily & monthly cost of a 25-cent increase. "Put on another quarter & see what that will cost," he said. And so they went on,25 cents a step...Finally the wage of $2.34 stood at $4.75--more than 100 percent increase. One of the associates--a good financial head--remarked rather sarcastically that if they were going to be fools, why not be first-class fools & make it $5..."All right," said Mr. Ford, "let's make it $5."
I wonder, are there any brave and visionary businessmen or women left?
'"From the start I had my own ideas about how the business should run. I wanted it to benefit everybody who contributed to its success-stockholders, labor and the American public."
What a concept! So the bottom line doesn't necessarily have to be the only bottom line.
"Paying good wages is not charity at all-it is the best kind of business."
Repeat this over and over again to yourself. Asking for higher wages is not asking for a handout. It is not asking for money that you haven't earned. It is not taking money from those who have earned it. It is merely asking for a share of the wealth that you have helped create from those who currently control it.
"If the boss stands in the way of men getting what they earn, he is not fit to be boss."
Many a CEO or top tier management could use to hear this.
'"A low wage business is always insecure."
Pull up your big boy pants and stop stealing from your employees.
'"Cutting wages is not the way to recovery. Raise wages and improve the product."
It is a pretty convoluted theory that would come up with the solution that paying people less will help the economy. But I suppose it speaks to the greedier, cowardly parts of people, thereby allowing it to have gained such a foothold upon our business sector.
It is not the employer who pays the wages. Employers only handle the money. It is the customer who pays the wages.
This may be my favorite, and I have long felt it to be true. Businesses DO NOT create jobs. Demand creates jobs. People willing and ABLE to buy a product or service creates jobs. We create jobs. All of us. Currently, the business sector is strangling the goose that it laying their golden eggs.
“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”
This sums everything up, of course. A healthy economy needs not only profitable businesses but profitable workers. This isn't rocket science. It's funny though. Not only have our CEOs forgotten this. We have forgotten it ourselves.
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dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
Can't raise the minimum wage, it'll end up costing jobs; (same breath) damn these bums working at McDonald's, always needing food stamps or some other kind of way of stealing MY money! Gotta love the BS spouted by the rich. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'll go with ethical over materialistic.
The fact Ford's views proved little more effective in the long run than a fad with a few businesspeople shows the need for government intervention.
esmith
Veteran Member
I think those in the field of "robotics" might disagree with your premiss.
Meet "Smart Restaurant": The Minimum-Wage-Crushing, Burger-Flipping Robot | Zero Hedge
And this is only one of many possibilities. Ask those that worked in the minimum wage jobs in the agriculture area if they lost jobs to machines?
First you must ask oneself what are the minimum wage jobs? Once you answer that you might see that it is possible that the lower skilled jobs, done by humans..read little or no education, are rapidly disappearing.
There is no "income inequality", there is however "educational inequality". Until people and politicians realize that this is the problem the issue will not be solved by just hyping for "income redistribution".
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I agree with you, but, I'm not of the opinion that this is solely the responsiblity of employers and the government.
About a year or so ago, I worked a budget for myself to determine what a minimum, living wage would need to look like for myself, living in my area, taking into consideration the cost of apartments (and a decent place to live), automobile, insurance, utilities, groceries, gas and I also factored in those perks that most of us will not go without such as cable, internet and cellular service.
As a single woman (which I'm not), I could make no less than $26.00 per hour and this would require that my employer also provide a full benefit package along with retirement/investment options, short term disability and life insurance - otherwise my wage would have to be increased to cover these costs independently.
$26.00 or more per hour!! Let me be real with you. There are not jobs in my area that provide such a wage unless you have a college degree, at minimum.
Fortunately, I live within my means and though salaried, make a wage that is realistic for my circumtances, but, not after years of work experience, promotions and hard work. And I will be returning to school in my mid 30s to earn more money, to afford the additional investment necessary for my retirement.
I'm not blind to issues of greed, but, I am okay with businesses making profit. AND I want for people to be successful, happy and fruitful in their personal endeavors. It pains me to work with clients who are helpless when faced with any type of crisis. I want good things for people!! I really, really do.
Not all businesses exist as the large corporations that we tend to talk about and not all can afford to pay someone $26.00+ an hour to work a cash register or handle inventory. In my community, a $26.00 wage more closely matches that of certified professionals, managerial positions, etc. If we jack up mininum wage, prices will inflate accordingly. Smaller businesses will suffer, which will result in loss of jobs.
Though I agree that people should be making a living wage, I do think that first and foremost the individual should be mapping a plan for themselves to be as successful as possible. Working a minimum wage, hourly job, cannot afford you a comfortable, stable life style. It's not going to happen. It's asinine to expect that minimum wage can afford such stability.
You can't live independently on $10.00 or even $15.00 per hour in most if not all American localities. The additional layer of challenge is that people with families EXPECT to be able to raise their families on minimum wage. It's not happening.
That mindset is problematic.
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Alceste
Vagabond
Raising the minimum wage is not income redistribution. It is simply ensuring the people who produce the wealth in the first place retain a reasonable share of it before it gets into the pockets of investors.
Taxing the middle class out of existence to pay for government food stamps to support full time employees in a profitable business? That's redistribution.
Interesting story about the burger bot, but I still maintain that fast food joints will stick with human labour for the foreseeable future. I'm confident people would prefer a burger served by a person to one out of a vending machine.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
It is an income redistribution of sorts, when not all businesses are of the same size and operate at the same capacity. The 20-employee small-business doesn't have the same earning potential as the large corporation.
I made just above minimum wage at a very small hotel appraising firm that I worked for. They would not have been able to afford to pay me more. I would have lost my job.AND I could not have worked there, had my husband at the time not been able to supplement through his earnings what I wasn't making.
And if I had lost my job, just because the business down the street is forced to pay me more, doesn't mean that they are forced to hire me.
It's a multi-faceted problem that will not go away with an increase in minimum wage. We're apt to demonize American business an in some cases, that's appropriate. In other instances, it's absolutely not. Sometimes, the problem does lie within the mindsets of Americans - the expectation to live a specific lifestyle without doing the required work (college, credentialing, etc.) to make the money needed.
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Alceste
Vagabond
You're not taking into account the fact that if you're making an extra couple of bucks an hour, so is everybody else. And at the lower end of the income scale, that means more spending, almost all of which goes directly into the local economy. Each low wage earner spending an extra $80 a week ($2 increase on a full time job) significantly increases the demand for local goods and services. So even if the hotel didn't want to employ you for a higher wage, they might have to in order to deal with their increased business.
Understanding that basic economic reality is key to understanding why BC's recent $2.25 minimum wage increase did not result in any job losses. In fact, the period immediately following the hike actually saw job growth. That's how it turned out despite business associations and free market think tanks howling about inevitable job losses for months while the decision was being made. You mustn't listen to those people. They are almost always wrong.
Nobody is hiring staff they don't need in order to fulfill the demand for their product or service, whatever the wage. They are hiring exactly as many people as they need to address the demand and paying the cost of labour, whatever that happens to be.
Don't you find it suspicious that this expectation has only become unrealistic in the last two decades (and greatly accelerated in this last decade)?
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I am. But, it doesn't change the fact that the single adult female can't live off of $15.00 per hour, Alceste, not in Newport News, VA, USA.
She would need to make double this, if she wanted a stable and comfortable lifestyle.
Raising the minimum wage could stimulate the economy, but this doesn't happen overnight and there's still a $10+ gap between what she earns and what she NEEDS to live within her means.
How do you propose that raising the minimum wage fixes THAT issue?
Alceste
Vagabond
Yeah, has it ever. My first job as a front desk clerk making only slightly more than minimum wage and living in staff dorms earned me enough money to travel in Europe for six months after working there for less than a year. After that, I lived independently for almost two decades, eventually in my own apartment. No roommates! Now I make at least double the minimum wage, but can barely keep my head above water. Forget holidays, I'm lucky if I can afford ice cream!
Times have certainly changed for the worse in the past 20 years. I feel sorry for young people who didn't get to experience economic independence right out of school in the nineties, when it was still possible. Now you're lucky if you can move out of your parents' house at all.