Rasing the minimum wage could cost jobs

[Father Heathen]

Every now & then.
Do you know how much they pay here?

From what I've googled, Walmart's average hourly wage is $11.83.

 

[Alceste]

That's funny considering all of the times that you've misrepresented things that I've said and have responded to many of my posts with strange straw men and odd non-sequiturs. Pot, meet kettle.
The times that I've been impertinent is because of this.

You keep accusing me of insults and flame wars, yet I don't recall engaging in any such thing. If I'm guilty of this, the proper course of action is to report the offenses.

You claimed that you were confused by Dawn's posts and that they needed to be simplified down into black and white terms, and I was saying that the issue is too complex for it to be adequately and accurately explained in such a way.

I pointed out that Dawn's stated position is confusing. She supports minimum wage increases, and yet she rejects every argument that has been offered in favour of minimum wage increases. If she wants to share her own reasons for supporting the minimum wage increases, which she apparently feels are superior to ours, she is completely free to do so, but she has chosen not to.

I understand that as her partner you feel defensive of her and want to ride in to the rescue when she's having a hard time, but seriously man. You've got to let her lose some of these. You're only hurting your own credibility. You're too emotionally invested in defending her position (whatever it is) to put up an interesting and engaging defense of your own position (whatever it is.)

 

[Alceste]

At this point I think we should be quote what we're responding to rather than rely upon inaccurate paraphrasing.

Sounded completely accurate to me, and each of those points has already been quoted and replied to.

 

[Alceste]

From what I've googled, Walmart's average hourly wage is $11.83.

Fact Sheet – Wages • Making Change at Walmart

Walmart’s average sale Associate makes $8.81 per hour, according to IBISWorld, an independent market research group. This translates to annual pay of $15,576, based upon Walmart’s full-time status of 34 hours per week1.

You can't use an average of all salaries for an accurate picture. When your CEO earns 1200 times the wage of a regular employee, it skews the statistic.

 

[dawny0826]

I pointed out that Dawn's stated position is confusing. She supports minimum wage increases, and yet she rejects every argument that has been offered in favour of minimum wage increases. If she wants to share her own reasons for supporting the minimum wage increases, which she apparently feels are superior to ours, she is completely free to do so, but she has chosen not to.

I understand that as her partner you feel defensive of her and want to ride in to the rescue when she's having a hard time, but seriously man. You've got to let her lose some of these. You're only hurting your own credibility. You're too emotionally invested in defending her position (whatever it is) to put up an interesting and engaging defense of your own position (whatever it is.)

But yet, my "stated" position has been misrepresented.

I have not rejected every argument that has been offered in favour of mininum wage increases. This is not accurate as were several of the other points paraphrased.

I have already shared my reasons for supporting a minimum wage increase, which you personally commented on.

Never presented my views in arrogance. Somehow, though, some of you feel I haven't conveyed my thoughts in understandable terms.

I wouldn't read more into his posts that what he's presenting. We happen to share the same views on this topic and I think this is becoming more heated than is intended.

I'm done now! Have fun!

 

[Father Heathen]

I pointed out that Dawn's stated position is confusing. She supports minimum wage increases, and yet she rejects every argument that has been offered in favour of minimum wage increases. If she wants to share her own reasons for supporting the minimum wage increases, which she apparently feels are superior to ours, she is completely free to do so, but she has chosen not to.

Um, are you sure you're actually reading the whole thread?

I understand that as her partner you feel defensive of her and want to ride in to the rescue when she's having a hard time, but seriously man. You've got to let her lose some of these.

How exactly is your struggle with reading comprehension her loss?

You're only hurting your own credibility. You're too emotionally invested in defending her position (whatever it is) to put up an interesting and engaging defense of your own position (whatever it is.)

My position is the same as hers. I've been nothing but concise and logical. If there was any display of emotion, it's your spastic flailing. Neither Dawn nor I oppose raising minimum wage. We've only pointed out potentially negative consequences from doing so. It's that simple. So if people want to twist that into something else, then it is their credibility rather than mine that is hurt.

 

[Alceste]

Um, are you sure you're actually reading the whole thread?

How exactly is your struggle with reading comprehension her loss?



My position is the same as hers. I've been nothing but concise and logical. If there was any display of emotion, it's your spastic flailing. Neither Dawn nor I oppose raising minimum wage. We've only pointed out potentially negative consequences from doing so. It's that simple. So if people want to twist that into something else, then it is their credibility rather than mine that is hurt.

ROFL! You're too funny. Concise and logical. That's you, to a T.

Come on, buddy, put away the white knight suit and stop waving your sword around. I'm having no "emotions" over here except amusement at your pointless ranting about my alleged character flaws and the uplifting feeling of having decisively won a debate. unk:

 

[esmith]

Note: all numbers are approximate. The data is from 2012
How many people are there in the US workforce that work at hourly wages (16 and over)? Answer 75.3 million. How many people in the US work at or below the minimum wage? Answer 3.55 million hourly workers. This is broken down to those at the Federal level..1.6 million; those below the level.... almost 2 million. That means that around 4.7% work at or below the minimum wage. Of those 50.6% are between the ages of 16-24 and of those 24% are teenagers; 16-19. Of the 3.55 million about 78% are white, and fully half are women. Now 64% are part-time workers. Over half work in the leisure and hospitality industry, 16% in retail, 9% in health and education services, and the rest scattered in different sectors.

So, what does all of this mean?
The story is that raising the minimum wage will improve the economy. OK, sounds right but how could 1.6 million workers (number that work at minimum wage) have any impact on the economy of the US? Say the minimum wage was increased to around $11 an hour, that would only inject an additional $6 million into a $15.6 trillion economy(GDP); a 0.00004% increase. So, improve economy not.

We also here that minimum wage earners are poor. However, only 11% of those making minimum wage actually live in poor households. In actuality over 63% are second and third wage earners in a household that has a total household income of over $50,000 a year. So all minimum wage earners live in poverty not.

Those earning a minimum wage are supporting a family. However from facts it is shown that over 50% are under the age of 24 and very few are supporting a family. Research has shown that 94% of those that are making minimum wage live in a household where the average income is over $40,000 a year. So, that leaves only about 6% attempting to support a family on minimum wage.

Now taking a look at the highest and lowest cost of living areas we see that New York City has the highest cost of living and the lowest is Harlingen, TX. Now taking a look at what some say is the most important is earning a living-wage.
First NYC. For a single person it is $11.50 and a family of 4 (2 adults 2 children) $21.23. Now for Harlingen, TX. For a single person it is $7.77 and a family of 4 (2 adults 2 children) $17.35 Note it is $17.04 for a single parent and 1 child. So, we can see that those are advocating for everyone earning a living wage are beyond optimistic (possibly living in an impossible possibility) except if one is single.



Source of information: Top 5 Myths About the Minimum Wage
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm#1
Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center
The 10 Cities With The Highest Cost Of Living: Report
Kiplinger - Interstitial
Living Wage Calculator - Introduction to the Living Wage Calculator

 

[Father Heathen]

ROFL! You're too funny. Concise and logical. That's you, to a T.

Come on, buddy, put away the white knight suit and stop waving your sword around. I'm having no "emotions" over here except amusement at your pointless ranting about my alleged character flaws and the uplifting feeling of having decisively won a debate. unk:

Said the pigeon as it defecated on the chessboard.

 

[Falvlun]

At this point I think we should be quote what we're responding to rather than rely upon inaccurate paraphrasing.

I'm not seeing much inaccurate. But, I have time to kill:

Just sifted through your posts again.
1. Minimum wage increase will still not equate to a living wage; that people will assume that such an increase will allow them to live on it; that people will still bellyache. This was your #1 beef, to which you dedicated the bulk of your posts.

You can't live independently on $10.00 or even $15.00 per hour in most if not all American localities. The additional layer of challenge is that people with families EXPECT to be able to raise their families on minimum wage. It's not happening.

That mindset is problematic.

I am. But, it doesn't change the fact that the single adult female can't live off of $15.00 per hour, Alceste, not in Newport News, VA, USA.

She would need to make double this, if she wanted a stable and comfortable lifestyle.

I can't relate to many Americans who believe that you can make it on minimum wage. You've never been able to lead a comfortable and stable lifestyle on minimum wage.

I don't really care if the minimum wage is raised, but, I don't particularly want to hear belly aching by the same people who are pushing for it with such might, when inflation occurs and people lose jobs.

And those who have the expectation of living off of a mininum wage and having the means to afford nice housing, nice cars, nice clothing and perks need to get real. You can't raise a family on minimum wage - you're going to struggle to take care of yourself and I tire of hearing people in my community belly ache as if they didn't know that you couldn't make it on minimum wage. I have no patience for this brand of ignorance.

What I tire of is the mindset that an American family CAN live comfortably on a minimum wage. It's not feasible. You cannot, as an American expect financial stability while working entry-level, minimum wage positions.

4. What I question is the unrealistic EXPECTATION that some Americans posess - that you CAN make it on your own and/or raise a family on mininum wage.

My problem is with those who assume that this is going to BETTER their overall financial stability, when there is no way in hell they can meet the demands of their local cost of living via a mininum wage paycheck, whether it be $10.00 or more

you still can't make it on minimum wage in my community, even if it's a HIGHER mininum wage.

I find it horribly unrealistic that anyone can expect to make a comfortable living off of $10.74 per hour when it takes double or triple this amount to cover the costs of living in my city.

It's the poeple unlike those in your example that trouble me. It's those who genuinely believe that they CAN make it on a mininum wage and do not intend to do anything to better their circumstances. This mindset exists as well.

2. People need to get off their butts and work harder or smarter and shouldn't work a minimum wage job anyway. This was probably #2.

But, yet, Americans tend to demonize companies for not paying entry-level workers more money and demonize people like myself who can't help but asking...why the hell didn't you pursue something else?

3. Americans would benefit from adjusting their own, individual mindsets to best align with that which they hope to achieve.

Some people are dumb and do lack skills necessary to do specific jobs. Certain people shouldn't realistically EXPECT to make certain wages, unless they are capable of obtaining the skills and education to propel themselves forward.

Maybe you have to work two mininum wage jobs to make ends meet, because that's what you can reasonably do instead of pursuing a degree or trade? Maybe you have to forego starting that family to avoid reliance on the government?

I'm pointing out that even if you have more money to spend, if you're not living within your means to begin with, you're still screwed until you make the necessary changes to move beyond that situation.

I don't agree with you, but, let's say we achieved this...Americans would still need to wake the **** up and approach their own life choices realistically if they want to be successful. This is a truth that cannot be escaped.

To avoid government dependency, some would benefit given their present circumstances to make different choices than what they do.

Therefore, the woman in my scenario, must focus on her own economic mobility if she wishes to be independent and financially stable.

c) regardless as to strides to close the wage gap and/or raise the mininum wage, Americans who rely on minimum wage jobs for financial sustainment will still continue to struggle unless steps are taken personally to improve indiviudal economic mobility

3. It will cause inflation.

I don't really care if the minimum wage is raised, but, I don't particularly want to hear belly aching by the same people who are pushing for it with such might, when inflation occurs and people lose jobs.

4. Other unspecified "negative effects" upon the economy.

It'll take time to see any positive impact on the economy and there will be negative consequences as well.

5. Positive effects will not be immediate.

Raising the minimum wage could stimulate the economy, but this doesn't happen overnight...

1. I have not objected to a raise in minimum wage, though, I have pointed out that any positive impacts on the economy may not be IMMEDIATELY realized.

My concerns have consistently been as follows:

a) that the impacts that such raise may have on the economy will not be immediate

6. The increase will put struggling small businesses out of business.

Oh sure. It's just not possible for a struggling American business to struggle even moreso if forced to pay their employees more?

You have yet to provide anything meaningful to quell my concerns for the smaller American business and their employees.

What I was trying to get at is that the company that's struggling will likely struggle moreso if required to increase its employee wages, which may have an adverse impact on its employees. /snip/

Where I was trying to get at with my example was that the Mom and Pop establishment wouldn't be able to keep up with higher wages and maintain profitability. It won't be competing. It's going to close.

And this is a concern for me as the small businesses in my community are important too. Their families matter. Their employees matter.

b) such a raise could have an adverse impact on smaller businesses

Regardless as to how small the percentage of businesses that might fit this description, it's still a concern to me as these are Americans that have their own families and their own goals to meet.

7. Government telling businesses what to pay their employees; businesses should be able to appeal a mandate.

This is the part of raising the mininum wage that makes me slightly uncomfortable, though I agree it needs to happen at this juncture. When the government essentially tells you that you have to pay your employees more when it's unfeasible for your business model...I have a problem with that as a libertarian and always will.

Those businesses that are struggling should have the opportunity to appeal such a mandate so as to KEEP their business and KEEP their employees, subsequently maintaining an economic foothold in their community.

Here are a couple more I found:
8. Raising the minimum wage is not a solution/will not fix our problems.

I haven't opposed an increase in mininum wage. What we agree on, is that it's not a solution to the problems that exist.

I believe I've stated quite clearly that mininum wage raises won't fix our problems.

9. Minimum wage may raise prices.

2. I have stated that not all American businesses will benefit in the same way from such increase and may, in fact, raise prices and cut jobs to adjust.

 

[dawny0826]

Falvlun, I have already conceded to you. What is your objective at this juncture?

 

[Falvlun]

Falvlun, I have already conceded to you. What is your objective at this juncture?

Father Heathen asked for it. Also, to clear my poor maligned name of inaccurate paraphrasing.

But, I'm sorry Dawny. Sorry for being rude and heated.

Raising the minimum wage will not solve all of our societal and economic problems. But, it is a necessary step in the right direction, as we both agree.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And if there were no minimum wage laws or other places to run to, you better believe that wages would crash.

And there are many out there that actually believe there should be no minimum wage.

 

[Revoltingest]

And there are many out there that actually believe there should be no minimum wage.

I might be the only one here.

 

[Alceste]

Note: all numbers are approximate. The data is from 2012
How many people are there in the US workforce that work at hourly wages (16 and over)? Answer 75.3 million. How many people in the US work at or below the minimum wage? Answer 3.55 million hourly workers. This is broken down to those at the Federal level..1.6 million; those below the level.... almost 2 million. That means that around 4.7% work at or below the minimum wage. Of those 50.6% are between the ages of 16-24 and of those 24% are teenagers; 16-19. Of the 3.55 million about 78% are white, and fully half are women. Now 64% are part-time workers. Over half work in the leisure and hospitality industry, 16% in retail, 9% in health and education services, and the rest scattered in different sectors.

So, what does all of this mean?
The story is that raising the minimum wage will improve the economy. OK, sounds right but how could 1.6 million workers (number that work at minimum wage) have any impact on the economy of the US? Say the minimum wage was increased to around $11 an hour, that would only inject an additional $6 million into a $15.6 trillion economy(GDP); a 0.00004% increase. So, improve economy not.

We also here that minimum wage earners are poor. However, only 11% of those making minimum wage actually live in poor households. In actuality over 63% are second and third wage earners in a household that has a total household income of over $50,000 a year. So all minimum wage earners live in poverty not.

Those earning a minimum wage are supporting a family. However from facts it is shown that over 50% are under the age of 24 and very few are supporting a family. Research has shown that 94% of those that are making minimum wage live in a household where the average income is over $40,000 a year. So, that leaves only about 6% attempting to support a family on minimum wage.

Now taking a look at the highest and lowest cost of living areas we see that New York City has the highest cost of living and the lowest is Harlingen, TX. Now taking a look at what some say is the most important is earning a living-wage.
First NYC. For a single person it is $11.50 and a family of 4 (2 adults 2 children) $21.23. Now for Harlingen, TX. For a single person it is $7.77 and a family of 4 (2 adults 2 children) $17.35 Note it is $17.04 for a single parent and 1 child. So, we can see that those are advocating for everyone earning a living wage are beyond optimistic (possibly living in an impossible possibility) except if one is single.



Source of information: Top 5 Myths About the Minimum Wage
Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2012
Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center
The 10 Cities With The Highest Cost Of Living: Report
Kiplinger - Interstitial
Living Wage Calculator - Introduction to the Living Wage Calculator

Esmith, I'm impressed! You did your homework for this one!

Raising the minimum wage is not being framed as a way to spur GDP growth by anyone. Nevertheless, there are many, many more ways to "improve the economy" than increasing the GDP. So Brietbart is being either obtuse or intentionally deceptive here.

All Brietbart's following points have to do with the living situation, marital status and child-bearing customs of the working poor, and whether it is actually necessary to help them improve their standard of living.

I think we can all agree that establishing a reasonable minimum wage is necessary for humanitarian reasons. History has already shown us that the preferred wage for a significant proportion of capitalists to offer their employees is zero (IOW slavery). So we clearly need to establish SOME basic legal wage standard. The question is, where should it be?

Considering the various statistics Brietbart offers tells us nothing about what the life of people on minimum wage is actually like. For example, Brietbart claims that over half of minimum wage earners live in somebody else's house (63% are second and third wage earners in a household that has a total household income of over $50,000 a year).

But what if they don't want to live in somebody else's house? When I was in the UK, just about every 20-30 year old in the area was still living with their parents. Sometimes well into their 30s! The ONLY reason for this was that in Cornwall it is not economically possible for the vast majority of young adults to live independently. Those working youth who moved out and were not being subsidized by their parents were being subsidized by the government instead. And also their parents, in some cases.

I hope we can agree that an economic model that forces parents to continue supporting their children well into adulthood or requires taxpayers to pick up the slack is not good for anyone, and needs a bit of tinkering. In the US, this phenomenon is reflected in the fact that 101 million Americans - ONE THIRD of the US population - are on food stamps or other government assistance programs. That's more than the total number of Americans who are employed full time in the private sector. And most of that is going to workers with some college education.

I am not sure what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. Yes, I understand there are regional variations in minimum wages and the cost of living. That is exactly why I advocate a "living wage" as opposed to a "minimum wage". Living wage advocates argue that the minimum wage for a full time job in any region should be pegged to the actual cost of a single person living alone in a very basic studio apartment or shared house in that same region.

So when you say "those are advocating for everyone earning a living wage are beyond optimistic... except if one is single." it sounds like you're actually agreeing with us. Are you? Cuz that would be awesome.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I understand there are regional variations in minimum wages and the cost of living. That is exactly why I advocate a "living wage" as opposed to a "minimum wage". Living wage advocates argue that the minimum wage for a full time job in any region should be pegged to the actual cost of a single person living alone in a very basic studio apartment or shared house in that same region.

So when you say "those are advocating for everyone earning a living wage are beyond optimistic... except if one is single." it sounds like you're actually agreeing with us. Are you? Cuz that would be awesome.

But I get the sense that whether we're talking abut a "living wage" or a "minimum wage"....It's still going to be higher than $7.25...correct? I suspect it's still going to come in somewhere between $9.25 - $12.00 per hour.....

Oh man....I found this site interesting. It's a Living Wage calculator broken down by state and cities/counties

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

Wow...!

 

[freethinker44]

Were this true, then in some place as economically devastated as Michiganistan, we'd see many jobs being offered at min wage. But I've not seen anyone working for min wage in decades. The lowest level jobs here are all above min wage. Why? because of competition for labor.

Really? Because I only recently left Michigan, and from my perspective most jobs were minimum wage. In fact, if you could find a job that made a couple dollars over minimum, you were doing great. My mom worked in a factory for 15 years, they finally fired her when she got too expensive at $11 dollars an hour, because it's cheaper to pay a new person minimum wage than pay someone with seniority more to do the same job.

But they do say wealthier people have a poorer sociological perspective than poorer people, so it's entirely possible you just didn't get it.

 

[Antibush5]

Actually, any scaling back of employees due to minimum wage increases is balanced out by jobs created by people at the lower end of the income scale having more money in their pockets and dumping it directly back into the local economy.

That's how BC got away with adding a couple of bucks over the course of a few years without any impact on the employment rate. Observe the statistics over the period where the two dollar minimum wage hike took place:

I'll go with solid statistical evidence over the personal opinion of rich people.

Wouldn't that mean it would be harder to start a new business instead it concentrates more power into the hands of the corporations you hate? The corporations can afford a minimum wage increase, smaller businesses can't.

 

[Alceste]

But I get the sense that whether we're talking abut a "living wage" or a "minimum wage"....It's still going to be higher than $7.25...correct? I suspect it's still going to come in somewhere between $9.25 - $12.00 per hour.....

No, they're different concepts. Governments do not calculate the regional cost of living when they set minimum wage standards. They may consider it, but they do not calculate it and set the minimum wage to match.

Living wage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For example, minimum wage in my city is $10.25 an hour. A living wage here would be $19.62 / hour. That's for the absolute basic necessities of life. No fluff and extras except one kid each. (I don't personally think kids should be part of the picture, but most people seem to think humans should keep having kids, so most living wage calculations take them into account).

A Living Wage for Families | Work should lift you out of poverty, not keep you there | A Living Wage for Families

 

[Alceste]

Oh man....I found this site interesting. It's a Living Wage calculator broken down by state and cities/counties

Living Wage Calculator - Introduction to the Living Wage Calculator

Wow...!

Very cool! I love it when people bother to calculate things.