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Ravi's Argument for God (The Atheists Nightmare)

Jeremiah

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
Tathagata said:
It's not unfalsifiable if God is defined with certain attributes that can be shown to be contradictory. Contradictions don't exist in reality. So no, the God-assertion is a falsifiable claim, but then again, the Theists can always raise the goalpost to make it an unfalsifiable assertion.




Haven't made it yet.

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"if God is defined"

One can show errors in our understanding of gods but you can't disprove them.
 
Amill

Amill

Apikoros
blueman said:
Let me clarify. If I kill or rape someone for no reason, do you think that's wrong and why? When I speak to issue of morality, hope and purpose, if one is to believe that the universe and life that inhabits the earth evolve through random chance, where do these components of life fit into this equation. Is life hopeless and meaningless?
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Ha, so you do agree with us that determinations of right and wrong depend on the circumstances? So how exactly do you still belive morality is objective? God did not give us some giant list of what the right thing to do is in every situation that exists. So if we are to determine whether or not a certain action in a specific situation is rght or wrong we have to use our minds and opinions, which makes it all subjective.
 
Jeremiah

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
mball1297 said:
Yes, you can. Once you define the term "God", you can disprove it.
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No, that would be showing errors in how one defines gods. That does not disprove gods. Gods are unfalsifiable, this means they can not be proved or disproved. We can sit here and argue endlessly about the nature of gods but we can not actually disprove or prove them. Just like you can't disprove the Teacup or the FSM or Santa claus or leprechauns.
 
K

Kerr

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
Is it not a sound rationale for the existence of God? I find it amazing that people will minimize the Bible and disregard the fact that despite many efforts throughout history to destroy and thwarts it's impact, it is to this day, the greatest bestseller of all-time. To downplay it's signifigance as a historical document that has withstood the test of time and reflects God's intervention in history because it has supernatural works in it is ludicrous. The fact that the universe evolved and in itself cannot explain it's origin is a supernatural act within itself. That can't be discounted or minimized.
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One of the assumptions is that an argument for the existence of God points to the existence of a specific deity.

And to my knowledge there exist documents who are older then the Bible. I never said otherwise, and I never said the Bible hasn´t had an impact... but it is hardly unique.
 
Magic Man

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Jeremiah said:
No, that would be showing errors in how one defines gods. That does not disprove gods.
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I see. So, in your mind, no one can disprove anything. If I say I can disprove the existence of unicorns, I actually can't, according to you. All I can do is show errors in how one defines unicorns. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me.

If you define something, and I can show that what you defined doesn't or can't exist, then I've disproven its existence.

Gods are unfalsifiable, this means they can not be proved or disproved. We can sit here and argue endlessly about the nature of gods but we can not actually disprove or prove them. Just like you can't disprove the Teacup or the FSM or Santa claus or leprechauns.
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Ah, you're falling into that trap. No, a lot of god-concepts are perfectly falsifiable. If they are not, they're not really worth considering. There are two concepts here. One is talking about a very general, vague godlike being. The other is talking about God as defined by people. I'll grant you that "God" in its most intentionally vague can't be disproved, but "God" when someone takes the time to define it, can be disproved. If the make it intentionally unfalsifiable, then it's a useless concept. (That's the entire point of the FSM and teacup examples.)
 
FlyingTeaPot

FlyingTeaPot

Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
blueman said:
I believe the purpose is the relationship we establish with God through Jesus Christ. Through this reconciliation we are redeemed and our fate is sealed through Him. Part of that purpose is doing His will, which is to tell others about this saving grace, love others and worship Him in all we do. Regarding morality, do you think it is wrong to kill someone? There is an objective view or right and wrong, I'm sorry I disagree with you. There is natural order in the universe and that did not evolve by random chance or mistake.
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Oh, so god created the whole of the universe with us in mind, over 4 billion years, so that we may love him. Nice little circle isn't it? And this is the greatest purpose of life according to you? And you tell me my life is empty? Please!

Morality is subjective. It is mainly derived from our selfish interest and furtherance of our genes.
 
blueman

blueman

God's Warrior
FlyingTeaPot said:
Oh, so god created the whole of the universe with us in mind, over 4 billion years, so that we may love him. Nice little circle isn't it? And this is the greatest purpose of life according to you? And you tell me my life is empty? Please!

Morality is subjective. It is mainly derived from our selfish interest and furtherance of our genes.
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There is an objective moral set of standards we all live by. Any level of subjectivity, was man derived.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Add me to the list of those wanting to learn about those objective morals. Not that I necessarily doubt they exist, but it has been a challenge to put them down on paper in any clear way.
 
Jeremiah

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
mball1297 said:
I see. So, in your mind, no one can disprove anything. If I say I can disprove the existence of unicorns, I actually can't, according to you. All I can do is show errors in how one defines unicorns. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me.

If you define something, and I can show that what you defined doesn't or can't exist, then I've disproven its existence.

Ah, you're falling into that trap. No, a lot of god-concepts are perfectly falsifiable. If they are not, they're not really worth considering. There are two concepts here. One is talking about a very general, vague godlike being. The other is talking about God as defined by people. I'll grant you that "God" in its most intentionally vague can't be disproved, but "God" when someone takes the time to define it, can be disproved. If the make it intentionally unfalsifiable, then it's a useless concept. (That's the entire point of the FSM and teacup examples.)
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"So, in your mind, no one can disprove anything."

Exactly; I am glad you get it. But this is not according to me; I thought this was common knowledge. I mean, I learned about unfalsifiable statements in high school science class (public schools).
 
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ThereIsNoSpoon

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
Tathagata said:
Even though I'm a Strong Atheist, I always love to see a well-presented and convincing argument for God. I think it will certainly challenge the Atheists and erase the doubts of some believers and fence-sitters. (The Theologian is Ravi Zacharias who is referred to as the Atheists Nightmare.)

Edit: Some have said that it's hypocritical to acknowledge that there are valid arguments for God and still be an Atheist. Just because I can acknowledge that the other side has some good arguments, doesn't mean I agree that they prove their position or convince me. I simply recognize that there are unjustified and illogical arguments for God made by Theists who don't think (like saying that everything around you is evidence of God, or that God reveals himself to those who want to know God, etc.) and then there's arguments that are actually substantial with some real reasoning behind them made by philosophically inclined Theists.


[youtube]YgJmsK2s0uI[/youtube]
YouTube - Ravi on How do you know there is a God?
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I am sorry but i fail to see what supposedly is so convincing?
Point 1 more or less the idea that the explanation for the "cause" of the universe would have to lie outside of it. Although i think this would not have to be that way we could take it for granted for the sake of the argument. However i see no sense in linking this explanation for the cause of the universe to a specific God of a scripture that people believe in currently.

Point 2 is nonsense. The example that he gives actually makes it obvious. He uses things which we KNOW are designed. If you took those "wrappers of a mcdonalds hamburger" and showed them to an alien he wouldn't think those were designed. Most probably he wouldnt think anything about them. We are pattern seeking animals and we recognize many patterns, especially those that we created before. That doesn't mean that whatever exists has to have a creator or designer.
The average person doesn't think that a face on the planet mars was created by aliens or god does he?

Point 3 is actually not understandable at all for me. More or less he seems to state that history shows there is a "moral reality" whatever that may mean. I see no linkage to a personal God here.
 
Magic Man

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Jeremiah said:
"So, in your mind, no one can disprove anything."

Exactly; I am glad you get it. But this is not according to me; I thought this was common knowledge. I mean, I learned about unfalsifiable statements in high school science class (public schools).
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:facepalm:

So, to be clear, you go through life not doing anything, right? I mean, if you can't count on anything because nothing is provable, that's a pretty crappy existence. I'd sure hate to live my life like you, always wondering whether there was a ghost or a dragon or a fairy around each corner. I mean, since dragons and ghosts and a 9-foot-tall invisible monster that randomly eats people could be right behind you all the time, it must be a scary life. I like being able to reasonably disprove things, since that's the only way to go through life in a functional way, but hey, if you want to keep thinking everything is not disprovable, go right ahead.
 
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