Ravi's Argument for God (The Atheists Nightmare)

[blueman]

It is only "compelling" if you are already inclined to believe in god.


Really?
When?
And no circular reasoning arguments by quoting the Bible.
When has god intervened that is not perpetuated by his propaganda?


This is because you assume that there is a purpose.
This is a failing on your part, not the universes.

wrong. There is a purpose, objective morality did not derive from man, natural order, beauty and love the atheist cannot explain. By the way, the Bible is a historical book, so it there is a basis and a place for it when you are discussing the fact that God has intervened in the naturalistic world.

 

[LuisDantas]

wrong. There is a purpose, objective morality did not derive from man,

Far as anyone can prove, it did indeed derive from man.

natural order, beauty and love the atheist cannot explain.

Not to your satisfaction, perhaps. But it is not like we're lost in the woods or something.

By the way, the Bible is a historical book, so it there is a basis and a place for it when you are discussing the fact that God has intervened in the naturalistic world.

It has lots of supernatural claims that don't have good support from other sources, so that place is more than a bit suspect.

 

[PolyHedral]

There is a purpose, objective morality did not derive from man, natural order, beauty and love the atheist cannot explain.

1) Name the purpose.
2) There is no objective morality. There is morality derived from various sources, some more reliable than others, but the universe does not care how humans treat each other.
3) Order emerging from chaotic systems is well understood. Besides, isn't "order" merely a human notion? The universe does not care about what constellations would be most pleasing.

 

[McBell]

wrong. There is a purpose, objective morality did not derive from man, natural order, beauty and love the atheist cannot explain.

This is nothing more than your opinion.
And opinion you have not been able to support with anything other than more opinion.

By the way, the Bible is a historical book,

History of what?

so it there is a basis and a place for it when you are discussing the fact that God has intervened in the naturalistic world.

So are you saying that the only evidence you have of god intervening is nothing more than circular reasoning?
That does not sound the least bit encouraging to me.


You have made numerous unsubstantiated claims.
You have refused to even attempt to substantiate them even when flat out asked.

 

[blueman]

This is nothing more than your opinion.
And opinion you have not been able to support with anything other than more opinion.


History of what?


So are you saying that the only evidence you have of god intervening is nothing more than circular reasoning?
That does not sound the least bit encouraging to me.


You have made numerous unsubstantiated claims.
You have refused to even attempt to substantiate them even when flat out asked.

You clearly have not been paying any attention to the thread. Enough said.

 

[blueman]

1) Name the purpose.
2) There is no objective morality. There is morality derived from various sources, some more reliable than others, but the universe does not care how humans treat each other.
3) Order emerging from chaotic systems is well understood. Besides, isn't "order" merely a human notion? The universe does not care about what constellations would be most pleasing.

I believe the purpose is the relationship we establish with God through Jesus Christ. Through this reconciliation we are redeemed and our fate is sealed through Him. Part of that purpose is doing His will, which is to tell others about this saving grace, love others and worship Him in all we do. Regarding morality, do you think it is wrong to kill someone? There is an objective view or right and wrong, I'm sorry I disagree with you. There is natural order in the universe and that did not evolve by random chance or mistake.

 

[PolyHedral]

I believe the purpose is the relationship we establish with God through Jesus Christ.

So we were created to have a "relationship" with God? It seems very egotistical to create a species simply for the purpose of loving you, regardless of they do it of their own "will", or not.

Regarding morality, do you think it is wrong to kill someone?

Depends entirely on the circumstances.

There is an objective view or right and wrong, I'm sorry I disagree with you.

So there is some definition of right and wrong built into the universe?

There is natural order in the universe and that did not evolve by random chance or mistake.

Indeed; The order evolved from entirely deterministic and predictable processes. Also, you have cause and effect the wrong way around: The universe did not bring things you would consider orderly into existence; Your brain evolved to consider what was already there "orderly".

 

[blueman]

So we were created to have a "relationship" with God? It seems very egotistical to create a species simply for the purpose of loving you, regardless of they do it of their own "will", or not.

Depends entirely on the circumstances.

So there is some definition of right and wrong built into the universe?

Indeed; The order evolved from entirely deterministic and predictable processes. Also, you have cause and effect the wrong way around: The universe did not bring things you would consider orderly into existence; Your brain evolved to consider what was already there "orderly".

Let me clarify. If I kill or rape someone for no reason, do you think that's wrong and why? When I speak to issue of morality, hope and purpose, if one is to believe that the universe and life that inhabits the earth evolve through random chance, where do these components of life fit into this equation. Is life hopeless and meaningless?

 

[McBell]

You clearly have not been paying any attention to the thread. Enough said.

I take it you are not willing (or is it able?) to substantiate your claims?

 

[McBell]

Let me clarify. If I kill or rape someone for no reason, do you think that's wrong and why?

Move the goal posts much?

When has there been anyone do something for no reason?

When I speak to issue of morality, hope and purpose, if one is to believe that the universe and life that inhabits the earth evolve through random chance, where do these components of life fit into this equation.

Who believes it was all through "random chance"?
I mean other than those whom you CLAIM believe as such.

Is life hopeless and meaningless?

No.
Life means different things to different people.

For you to arrogantly claim that people who do share your particular beliefs are without purpose, meaning, etc. is something that many people take exception to.

 

[blueman]

Move the goal posts much?

When has there been anyone do something for no reason?


Who believes it was all through "random chance"?
I mean other than those whom you CLAIM believe as such.


No.
Life means different things to different people.

For you to arrogantly claim that people who do share your particular beliefs are without purpose, meaning, etc. is something that many people take exception to.

All I'm doing is asking the question about where those things are derived from outside of God?

 

[Jeremiah]

Ok, I'll post them in a new thread.

You do realize that the statement "gods exist" is an unfalsifiable statement? No, of course not. Link to thread?

 

[Tathagata]

You do realize that the statement "gods exist" is an unfalsifiable statement? No, of course not.

It's not unfalsifiable if God is defined with certain attributes that can be shown to be contradictory. Contradictions don't exist in reality. So no, the God-assertion is a falsifiable claim, but then again, the Theists can always raise the goalpost to make it an unfalsifiable assertion.

Link to thread?

Haven't made it yet.

.

 

[Kerr]

The logic that Dr. Ravi Z. presented in totality with other components of the designer's blueprint (love, beauty, natural order) that he did not reference, provides more of a basis for a rationale belief in God than any argument you could make for rationale to believe that God does not exist.

Only if you accept the assumptions he make.

 

[Kerr]

No I don't live in fear of punishment. I chose to accept God's love through Jesus Christ. I don't lay claims to superiority at all. I'm imperfect and that is all the more reason that I'm in need of a righteous God. The question I asked and that you never answered is If you believe this earth and unverse evolved through some random chance or accident, where does the element of hope, purpose, love, beauty and morality originate from?

Why does people always assume that if you don´t believe in God you think everything is just a result of random chance :areyoucra?

And all those things come from ourselves.

 

[PolyHedral]

Why does people always assume that if you don´t believe in God you think everything is just a result of random chance :areyoucra?

Simple. They believe that they are correct in believing those things come from God; Therefore, if you don't believe in God, you can't believe in those, right?

 

[Magic Man]

Actually, it might.

No, no, it wouldn't. Irrationality is only a hindrance.

Nice to know you still can't perceive the point.

Oh, I can perceive it. That's why I stated it so clearly. It's OK for you to be condescending because you see that as a valid style of reply. But it's not acceptable for others to be glib because you don't see that as a valid style of reply. It makes perfect sense, assuming you don't mind double standards.

 

[blueman]

Only if you accept the assumptions he make.

Is it not a sound rationale for the existence of God? I find it amazing that people will minimize the Bible and disregard the fact that despite many efforts throughout history to destroy and thwarts it's impact, it is to this day, the greatest bestseller of all-time. To downplay it's signifigance as a historical document that has withstood the test of time and reflects God's intervention in history because it has supernatural works in it is ludicrous. The fact that the universe evolved and in itself cannot explain it's origin is a supernatural act within itself. That can't be discounted or minimized.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry, Blueman, but the fact is that there is no reason why anyone must accept the Bible as literally true. If it brings good inspiration to anyone, so much the better. But it is still a work of faith, not of fact. People are entitled to doubt it.

 

[blueman]

Sorry, Blueman, but the fact is that there is no reason why anyone must accept the Bible as literally true. If it brings good inspiration to anyone, so much the better. But it is still a work of faith, not of fact. People are entitled to doubt it.

I'm not saying that anyone can't doubt and that is there own free will to do so, but you cannot discount it as a historical document in my opinion just because of it's supernatural nature. As I said, the evolvement of the universe was a supernatural event within itself.