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real vs an illusion

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Wouldn't that make reality objectively true, and the illusion a figment of our own minds?
Not if one is misinterpreting reality as a result of misunderstanding of or being in ignorance of its true nature. Reality is objectively true from whatever reality one is perceiving it. In the dream, dream reality is objectively true from the dream character's perspective.
 

Soandso

ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
Not if one is misinterpreting reality as a result of misunderstanding of or being in ignorance of its true nature. Reality is objectively true from whatever reality one is perceiving it. In the dream, dream reality is objectively true from the dream character's perspective.

I see. Yet the scientific process seems to work. This would seem to indicate that, though we subjectively experience reality, there must be some kind of objectively true thing that all of our subjective observations can agree on
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
What is the difference between a thing that is real and a thing that is an illusion?

What makes a thing real?

What makes a thing an illusion?

What in this universe is real and what in this universe is an illusion?

Isn't being an illusion a way of being real?????

I don't understanding the distinction
Real is that which exist in reality, illusion is that which exist only in my head. If I die, my illusions die with me, but that which is real remains. IOW if I die, the dragon on my front lawn goes away, but the tree on my front lawn remains.
 

Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
There are different schools of thought on this. Have you considered studying philosophy, @Eddi ?
When I did my degree I did a philosophy module but it didn't cover anything like this!

But this question is very important to me

What area of philosophy concerns reality vs illusion?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
When I did my degree I did a philosophy module but it didn't cover anything like this!

But this question is very important to me

What area of philosophy concerns reality vs illusion?
Metaphysics is probably the most foundational of all areas of philosophy with ontology (how we define reality) plus epistemology (how we can know anything) being two of the major branches. Philosophy more or or less starts with reasoned arguments to defeat skepticism and uncertainty so one has a foundation from which to build other ideas - things like right conduct (how we decide ethics) and right governance (how we decide laws).
 

Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
Metaphysics is probably the most foundational of all areas of philosophy with ontology (how we define reality) plus epistemology (how we can know anything) being two of the major branches. Philosophy more or or less starts with reasoned arguments to defeat skepticism and uncertainty so one has a foundation from which to build other ideas - things like right conduct (how we decide ethics) and right governance (how we decide laws).
I've studied things like ethics, God, logic, the individual, political philosophy but there is a gap in my knowledge of philosophy

But in order to fix that gap I need to be sure what that gap consists of
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What is the difference between a thing that is real and a thing that is an illusion?

What makes a thing real?

What makes a thing an illusion?

What in this universe is real and what in this universe is an illusion?

Isn't being an illusion a way of being real?????

I don't understanding the distinction
It can be tricky.

Generally speaking, illusions lack substance; they only exist to the extent that some form of perceiver interprets perceptions mistakenly.

So in many cases reality is differentiated from illusions because reality does not change with the perceiver.

But there are important exceptions; some things are only real at an individual level, for instance.

Sometimes that can be resolved by some form of separate testing. Sometimes it can't be resolved.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Metaphysics is probably the most foundational of all areas of philosophy with ontology (how we define reality) plus epistemology (how we can know anything) being two of the major branches. Philosophy more or or less starts with reasoned arguments to defeat skepticism and uncertainty so one has a foundation from which to build other ideas - things like right conduct (how we decide ethics) and right governance (how we decide laws).
The photoelectric effect is useful for finding out about the relationship between observation and reality.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
When I did my degree I did a philosophy module but it didn't cover anything like this!

But this question is very important to me

What area of philosophy concerns reality vs illusion?
I think you and Zhuangzi have a lot in common and am sure will find his philosophy very interesting.


"Now I do not know whether it was then I dreamt I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man".
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The photoelectric effect is useful for finding out about the relationship between observation and reality.
If one grants certain axiomatic assumptions about reality and our ability to know it, yes. Otherwise, not so much. Per some notions, nothing that humans observe is "real." For example, if we grant that everything in the observed universe is ephemeral and fleeting, none if it is really real - the really real is that which is eternal and unchanging. Such is the notion of ideal forms, or mathematical equations, that remain true regardless of time and space. Material reality is thus seen as but an illusion or manifestation of the ideal forms or true reality behind the curtain. Not saying I subscribe to such notions personally mind, mostly just positing an example of how what we think we know is the case is not necessarily so depending on point of view. That's a lot of what philosophy teaches - much is a matter of the perspective taken on things.

I've studied things like ethics, God, logic, the individual, political philosophy but there is a gap in my knowledge of philosophy

But in order to fix that gap I need to be sure what that gap consists of
Nah, I'd just start with some basic textbooks, lectures, videos by relevant experts and explore from there. I've taken to revisiting some of the foundations myself this tide as I definitely need a refresh. The inspiration will take you places all on its own.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
If one grants certain axiomatic assumptions about reality and our ability to know it, yes. Otherwise, not so much. Per some notions, nothing that humans observe is "real." For example, if we grant that everything in the observed universe is ephemeral and fleeting, none if it is really real - the really real is that which is eternal and unchanging. Such is the notion of ideal forms, or mathematical equations, that remain true regardless of time and space. Material reality is thus seen as but an illusion or manifestation of the ideal forms or true reality behind the curtain. Not saying I subscribe to such notions personally mind, mostly just positing an example of how what we think we know is the case is not necessarily so depending on point of view. That's a lot of what philosophy teaches - much is a matter of the perspective taken on things.
The perspective I'm taking here contrasts the knowledge of the divine with the knowledge of human beings, as reflected by the saying "to err is human". This goes back to Cicero and the state as protector in contrast with protection afforded by deity, eg the warning that "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge".
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
An illusion is a false or misleading perception, caused by perspective. That doesn’t mean there’s no underlying reality - it means that reality has been misconstrued. For example, it’s an illusion that the sun sets in the west and rises in the east, having travelled behind the earth during the hours of darkness. The sun is real, the refraction of light associated with a glorious sunset is a real phenomenon, but the illusion that it is the sun that moves in relation to the earth, is a function of our misleading perspective.
^^^ need we say more? even sun is an illusion if you ask an advaitist hindu (follower of non-duality).
Wouldn't that make reality objectively true, and the illusion a figment of our own minds?
that is where science comes to help. look at your finger. as you go deeper, there is flesh and blood. go deeper and it is just atoms. go even further and there are just four fundamental forces of nature. :)
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
^^^ need we say more? even sun is an illusion if you ask an advaitist hindu (follower of non-duality). :)
I always go for illusory to be more accurate.

Like my parents were real , but since they died they're not around anymore as if they never existed.

That tells me that Illusions and such are very multifaceted , fleeting, and broad in scope that includes physical and mental phenomenon.

Yet it's all inseparable and interrelated.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What is the difference between a thing that is real and a thing that is an illusion?

What makes a thing real?

What makes a thing an illusion?

What in this universe is real and what in this universe is an illusion?

Isn't being an illusion a way of being real?????

I don't understanding the distinction
Your questions are trapping themselves.

PERCEPTION IS CONCEPTION.

What this means is that when nerve impulses are being sent to the brain in response of sensory stimuli from the world around us, the brain "cognates" it into a set of ideas and then places it within a whole network of set ideas that it holds, and that we call "reality".

That "reality" is imaginary. It only exists within our minds. And in that sense it is an illusion. We don't perceive it as such because it's the only experience of actual reality we have ... of the reality that exists apart from our perceptions. But it is nevertheless just an illusory concept of actual reality. It is not actual reality, itself, that we perceive.

We are so unused to recognizing this that we very often fight to deny it, or we just can't grasp how it could be so. We 'believe in' our imagined illusion of reality so fervently that we simply can't accept that it's not actual reality.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What is the difference between a thing that is real and a thing that is an illusion?

What makes a thing real?

What makes a thing an illusion?

What in this universe is real and what in this universe is an illusion?

Isn't being an illusion a way of being real?????

I don't understanding the distinction
One ambiguous line in the sand are magic tricks. Magic can appear to be real to the eyes. However, once it appears to defy common sense and/or even the laws of nature, we know there is a trick involved. If the trick is done well, we may have problems figuring out how it works. Until you figure out how it works, the illusion remains real to someone.

Applied Science can create new things that do not appear naturally under natural laws. Cell phones do not grow on trees or hatch from eggs. They begin as an illusion in the imagination, until the illusion becomes real and ready for market. This is sort of like magic; something from nothing with no natural explanation. There is an artificial or manufactured explanation.

There are other types of illusions and magic tricks. For example, in the US, the Biden family influence business has been up and running for years, but we are told President Biden was clueless of this and had no knowledge or connection. This trick is like the magician sawing his lovely assistant in half, with both halves of her still able to function, without the other. Many people believe this is possible, while others look for the hidden wires or mirrors.

Say someone commits a crime, but he gets off on a technically. Since there was no justice served, does that make him innocent? This is also a type of magic trick where the line between real and illusion is not clear cut. This magic is done with law and lawyers acting as magicians.

Politics also deal in illusions and magic tricks where the line between real and illusion is blurred. Fake news takes this to the next level selling fiction as fact until the line is also blurred.

Statistics is another illusion maker. One sets the stage by hiding the evidence in a black box; nothing up my sleeve. The magician can then pull a rabbit out of that hat. Many are not sure where reality and illusion start and stop. We are all at risk even if nothing happens. Math that relies on a black box is a gift to the magician's guild. It is OK in a factory or casino, since they both conjure products that started in thin air.
 
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