Reality is subjective / comes from the mind? Really?

[1137]

1. There is no objective reality
2. So, all "reality" is subjective / stems from the mind
3. All things on earth (including inanimate objects) are effected by gravity
4. Based on 1 & 2, gravity is created subjectively by each individual mind
5. So, someone should be able to change their perception and not be bound by gravity
6. 5 is impossible
Therefore, 1 & 2 are false.

 

[Storm]

You're pushing the statement further than it's intended to go. I have to go now, but I'll come back to explain/ argue.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Depending on if you believe the source, since this is a teaching found in Buddhism, the Buddha did, in fact, perform #5.

 

[1137]

Depending on if you believe the source, since this is a teaching found in Buddhism, the Buddha did, in fact, perform #5.

The Buddha defied gravity?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

The Buddha defied gravity?

According to some stories, he could levitate at will, and fly around, so, yeah.

 

[1137]

According to some stories, he could levitate at will, and fly around, so, yeah.

I did not know that, very cool bit of information there. Sadly, myths are not really valid in arguments. I could say the sun truly orbits the earth because Ra is riding across the sky in his boat, but it really doesn't threaten the idea that the earth orbits the sun.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I did not know that, very cool bit of information there. Sadly, myths are not really valid in arguments. I could say the sun truly orbits the earth because Ra is riding across the sky in his boat, but it really doesn't threaten the idea that the earth orbits the sun.

I don't disagree with that at all.

 

[Alex_G]

1. There is no objective reality
2. So, all "reality" is subjective / stems from the mind
3. All things on earth (including inanimate objects) are effected by gravity
4. Based on 1 & 2, gravity is created subjectively by each individual mind
5. So, someone should be able to change their perception and not be bound by gravity
6. 5 is impossible
Therefore, 1 & 2 are false.

Subjectivity, and control enough to manipulate at will, are different things. Such that colour is essentially subjective, as it doesn’t exist in the real world. The corresponding light frequency leading to the colour green does for example, but green itself is dependent on the subject. Thus subjective, but not something that can be 'willed' either way by the given subject.

So in your argument i wouldn’t agree that being able to wilfully change something is the definition of subjectivity, such that a failure to be able to change reality at will proves that reality is not subjective.

(Of course just to clarify, i do actually think that there is an objective reality, just pointing out where i think your argument steps into trouble).

Alex

 

[1137]

Subjectivity, and control enough to manipulate at will, are different things. Such that colour is essentially subjective, as it doesn’t exist in the real world. The corresponding light frequency leading to the colour green does for example, but green itself is dependent on the subject. Thus subjective, but not something that can be 'willed' either way by the given subject.

So in your argument i wouldn’t agree that being able to wilfully change something is the definition of subjectivity, such that a failure to be able to change reality at will proves that reality is not subjective.

(Of course just to clarify, i do actually think that there is an objective reality, just pointing out where i think your argument steps into trouble).

Alex

Not only does the argument not say that there is no subjectivity, but the specific example, if created by the mind, either can be defied by the individual mind or is not bound to the mind. These criticisms do no damage. If gravitg is a product of our minds creating reality, our minds can not create gravity. Or, as a hard determinist, I can say perhaps we cannot control what we create, however this shows that there is objective truth as well.

 

[idav]

If you can't see outside your illusion then anything you try and do in your own "reality" would be ineffective.

 

[1137]

If you can't see outside your illusion then anything you try and do in your own "reality" would be ineffective.

People who fully accept there is no objective reality cannot defy gravity either.

 

[Alex_G]

Not only does the argument not say that there is no subjectivity, but the specific example, if created by the mind, either can be defied by the individual mind or is not bound to the mind. These criticisms do no damage. If gravitg is a product of our minds creating reality, our minds can not create gravity. Or, as a hard determinist, I can say perhaps we cannot control what we create, however this shows that there is objective truth as well.

No what i say does carry some weight i think as a retort to your specific proof.

You aim to falsify the statement 'there is no objective reality'.
You do this by picking some phenomenon and demonstrating that people (ie the subjects) have no capacity to manipulate it, proving that its not subjective in nature. But in doing this you rely on blurring the boundaries of what it means to be 'subjective' and what it means to be 'at the control of the subjects mind'. The best conclusion you can actually arrive at is 'reality is not at the mercy of mental manipulation of the subjects perceiving it'.

Things can 'stem from the mind' without necessarily being subject to manipulation by the conscious efforts of the individual.

I don’t disagree with the conclusion as it were, i just think that there’s a weakness that prevents your argument from standing on its own as definitive proof of that conclusion.

 

[1137]

Things can 'stem from the mind' without necessarily being subject to manipulation by the conscious efforts of the individual.

How??

 

[idav]

People who fully accept there is no objective reality cannot defy gravity either.

You could even know your in a dream and not be able to do anything about it or even wake up.

 

[1137]

You could even know your in a dream and not be able to do anything about it or even wake up.

Do you know of lucid dreaming? If you recognize you are in a dream you can control it.
Anyways, we are not talking about dreams.

 

[Alex_G]

How??

Well as i mentioned, what about the perception of colour? The grass isn’t actually green; it simply reflects part of the electromagnetic spectrum into our eyes and our minds' label it internally as 'green’ or 'blue' etc.
The qualitative colour of something is very much a construct of the mind perceiving it, but it is not clear that that same mind has the inherent ability to consciously will that perception to be otherwise.

 

[1137]

I could see an argument like depression causes subjective changes in the way we view the world, and we cannot simply choose to not suffer from depression. However, that argument implies that depression has an objective cause; the brain. The brain must objectively exist for us to have depression we cannot choose to get rid of.

 

[1137]

Well as i mentioned, what about the perception of colour? The grass isn’t actually green; it simply reflects part of the electromagnetic spectrum into our eyes and our minds' label it internally as 'green’ or 'blue' etc.
The qualitative colour of something is very much a construct of the mind perceiving it, but it is not clear that that same mind has the inherent ability to consciously will that perception to be otherwise.

I thought we see color because of cones in our eyes and such. Most people with normal vision can identify the color green, obviously there is something objective going on. Not understanding it currently does not mean we will never, but also realize that color relies on light, and light is not created by the mind so it must objectively exist. My argument is not for no subjectivity, it is against pure subjectivity.

 

[Storm]

In a nutshell, I think that while there is an objective reality, it's so far beyond the human mind that it may as well not exist. Rather like the typical atheist's view of deism.

 

[Surya Deva]

1. There is no objective reality
2. So, all "reality" is subjective / stems from the mind
3. All things on earth (including inanimate objects) are effected by gravity
4. Based on 1 & 2, gravity is created subjectively by each individual mind
5. So, someone should be able to change their perception and not be bound by gravity
6. 5 is impossible
Therefore, 1 & 2 are false.

This is a strawman of my argument in the other thread. So let me refine it

1. There is no objective OR subjective reality, because there is no such thing as an observer or 'I'(supported strongly by neuroscience) then none of the objects we observe and the inferences we draw from them actually exist
2. Gravity etc is a theoretical concept that we have drawn by observing objects fall in our perceived objective reality and then explaining it through formal inferences. There are several theories of gravity we have formed so far: Gravity as a force(Newtonian) gravity as a wave or disruption in time and space(Relativity) and recently gravity as quantum effects of higher dimensions(String theory)
3. Gravity exists as an observed effect in our empirical/phenomenal reality, hence insofar as we are a part of empirical reality, gravity exists for us. However, at the fundamental level of reality such as the quantum, space, time, matter and gravity do not exist. Hence, we can exploit this fact by developing quantum technologies which are not bound by classical laws e.g., quantum entanglement does not obeys classical physics which posits that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but indeed we routinely now send information thousands of times faster than the speed of light.

In quantum levitation we exploit the fact that gravity does not really exist and levitate nanoparticles(theoretically, we could levitate a human or any macro object)

In phenomenon such as quantum tunneling, where we know particles can pass from one point in space to another without travelling through space, this can be exploited to theoretically send an object through a solid hard wall, because we know in fact that solidity does not exist.

In fact quantum physics theoretically allows for many possibilities such as backwards time(a broken glass reforming into glass) because in quantum physics because time does not exist, there is no arrow of time or reason why time should flow in any direction.

The claimed siddhis of Yoga and Buddhism are based on the same principles we use in quantum physics today. As a yogi knows that time, space, gravity matter etc do not really exist, they exploit this fact and are able to perform feats like levitation, waking on water, teleportation, walking through walls, telepathy etc . Of course, I do not expect you to believe this is possible without empirical evidence, but the fact that in quantum physics this is possible means that none of these feats are actually theoretically impossible.