Reality is subjective / comes from the mind? Really?

[Alex_G]

I thought we see color because of cones in our eyes and such. Most people with normal vision can identify the color green, obviously there is something objective going on. Not understanding it currently does not mean we will never, but also realize that color relies on light, and light is not created by the mind so it must objectively exist. My argument is not for no subjectivity, it is against pure subjectivity.

Actually the qualitative experience of colour for you is ultimately a construct of your brain. Your cones in your eyes don’t themselves 'see' colour.

Ye there is likely something objective going on as you suspect, but i don’t think it’s proven simply by an appeal to the fact that individuals demonstrate an apparent lack of control over such perceptions.

I could see an argument like depression causes subjective changes in the way we view the world, and we cannot simply choose to not suffer from depression. However, that argument implies that depression has an objective cause; the brain. The brain must objectively exist for us to have depression we cannot choose to get rid of.

This is all actually quite an interesting subject, 'brain in a vat' theories and their objections/retorts etc. Its way too late here for me to stay up and dive into this stuff so im bowing out now im afraid. So im just going to lazily link to something and come back tomorrow.

Skepticism and Content Externalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Me Myself]

1. There is no objective reality
2. So, all "reality" is subjective / stems from the mind
3. All things on earth (including inanimate objects) are effected by gravity
4. Based on 1 & 2, gravity is created subjectively by each individual mind
5. So, someone should be able to change their perception and not be bound by gravity
6. 5 is impossible
Therefore, 1 & 2 are false.

How do you know 5 have never happened to anyone?

If you ask me, this is probably exactly what the people who claim levitation do.

 

[Me Myself]

Do you know of lucid dreaming? If you recognize you are in a dream you can control it.

In principle, you should, in reality though, most people that have lucid dreams do not have complete control of their dreaming experience.

For example, I lucid dream frequently. I know it is possible for me to fly in a dream and I have done it, but I am not able every time. This is because simply knowing in theory does not necessarily means we have such a deep comprehension or confidence on that truth on a level deep enough for us to manifest it at will.

If you can't see outside your illusion then anything you try and do in your own "reality" would be ineffective.

And relevant to this: even if he believed he tried to defy gravity he wouldnt really be trying. he would already have decided he wont be able to do it. He may change his superficial thoughts into thinking of the possibility, that doesn´t mean they are enough to defy his deep conditioning throughout life that he cannot as a human levitate.

It´s like Peter walking on the water. Even as he was doing it, he fail to believe it in a moment and then he fell. It´s normal. We as humans have a lot of psychological issues about being omnipotent. Sure, we all say we want to, but we also have desires to repeat patterns that are harmful to us that satisfy us on a subconscious masochistic way.

 

[1137]

Actually the qualitative experience of colour for you is ultimately a construct of your brain. Your cones in your eyes don’t themselves 'see' colour.

I admit a lack of full understanding on the subject, so forgive and correct any ignorance please. But if the experience of color is a construct of the brain, doesn't that mean the brain must objectively exist?

Ye there is likely something objective going on as you suspect, but i don’t think it’s proven simply by an appeal to the fact that individuals demonstrate an apparent lack of control over such perceptions.

This example of color is still open ended, I do not think we can really use it to support either perspective yet.

This is all actually quite an interesting subject, 'brain in a vat' theories and their objections/retorts etc. Its way too late here for me to stay up and dive into this stuff so im bowing out now im afraid. So im just going to lazily link to something and come back tomorrow.

Skepticism and Content Externalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I will check out the link and discuss it tomorrow.

How do you know 5 have never happened to anyone?

If you ask me, this is probably exactly what the people who claim levitation do.

Can you present any examples of levitation happening? Not some youtube video or ancient story, how about a controlled scientific experiment in which someone legitimately levitated simpy with their mind.

In principle, you should, in reality though, most people that have lucid dreams do not have complete control of their dreaming experience.

Well we do not have complete control over our mind ever either, awake or asleep.

It´s like Peter walking on the water. Even as he was doing it, he fail to believe it in a moment and then he fell. It´s normal. We as humans have a lot of psychological issues about being omnipotent. Sure, we all say we want to, but we also have desires to repeat patterns that are harmful to us that satisfy us on a subconscious masochistic way.

I don't understand. If a person fails to levitate because they do not truly believe they can, then they do not truly believe that there is no objective reality.

 

[idav]

This is because simply knowing in theory does not necessarily means we have such a deep comprehension or confidence on that truth on a level deep enough for us to manifest it at will.

This is true though an omniscient being would know how to overcome it.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't understand. If a person fails to levitate because they do not truly believe they can, then they do not truly believe that there is no objective reality.

Have you ever failed to control something simple on a lucid dream? You can have the intellectual comprehension of it, but not the emotional confidence.

It´s like if you have a parachute and I tell you dont believe you are going to fall to the floor and die, you have the parachute. You may still fear for your life. You may even fear for your own incompetence on using the parachute.

In any case, I am not saying I can evidence this posture to you, I am saying that you cannot falsify , so you cannot scientifically say it is impossible.

 

[Surya Deva]

According to Yoga Sutras levitation can only happen when one is able to connect with the quantum reality through a formal technique known as samyama, meaning perfect control or resonance. This requires one to achieve a really rare state of consciousness known as samadhi and this is why though throughout Yoga lore and mystical lore in all traditions levitation is described to happen, it is very rare and those yogis/mystics who have this ability are not interested in demonstrating it to scientists.

What strikes me, however, is the explanation the Yogasutras gives for how levitation happens is virtually identical to how we achieve levitation today in quantum physics.

3.40 By the mastery over udana, the upward flowing prana vayu, there is a cessation of contact with mud, water, thorns, and other such objects, and there ensues the rising or levitation of the body.
(udana jayat jala panka kantaka adisu asangah utkrantih cha)
​

Some explanation is necessary here for those not familiar with the terms. The udana vayu is a pranic force which exists in the subtle dimension of reality directly preceeding the physical in the akasha(quantum space) which is all pervading and within it exists many subtle forces known as pranas, which serve many purposes of coordinating sensory and motor functions in the body and mind; some flow upwards, some flow downwards, some are circulating around the entire body. The Yogasutras is saying that when the Yogi can channel the upwards flowing subtle pranic forces the body can be made to levitate.

In quantum levitation, levitation is caused by channeling a quantum force called the casimir force. The polarity of the force is reversed so that it pushes upwards resulting in levitation of particles.

The fact of the matter is levitation is indeed possible in quantum physics. If it is possible to levitate an object using technology, it is equally within the remits of possibility to levitate something with the mind. For in quantum physics as the entire universe is interconnected, if it possible for the mind through will power to control even a single point of matter, it means it has the capacity to control all matter. As we know that by our will we can control the movements of our body, and yogis can even control the so-called involuntary bodily processes like heart beat, respiration, body temperature, it follows our control is not just limited to the body but we can theoretically control all matter.

 

[Revoltingest]

1. There is no objective reality
2. So, all "reality" is subjective / stems from the mind
3. All things on earth (including inanimate objects) are effected by gravity
4. Based on 1 & 2, gravity is created subjectively by each individual mind
5. So, someone should be able to change their perception and not be bound by gravity
6. 5 is impossible
Therefore, 1 & 2 are false.

I venture that there is one reality, & it obeys its laws. But the lack of objective reality is really just how unreliable our brain is at interpreting our senses.
It's not that anything can happen, but rather that we could think that anything happens.

 

[MetalEverywhere]

This requires one to achieve a really rare state of consciousness known as samadhi and this is why though throughout Yoga lore and mystical lore in all traditions levitation is described to happen, it is very rare and those yogis/mystics who have this ability are not interested in demonstrating it to scientists.

I see 2 possibilities. 1) The occurrence is rare and those with the ability choose not to demonstrate it. 2) They can't demonstrate it. I don't think anyone should believe #1 by default.

if it possible for the mind through will power to control even a single point of matter, it means it has the capacity to control all matter.

Well that escalated quickly.

As we know that by our will we can control the movements of our body, and yogis can even control the so-called involuntary bodily processes like heart beat, respiration, body temperature, it follows our control is not just limited to the body but we can theoretically control all matter.

But bodily processes are still parts of the body. You certainly aren't necessarily wrong by any means, but I won't believe it because it has yet to be demonstrated.

 

[1137]

If people can levitate, why are there no controlled scientific experiments with these magical yogis doing so?

 

[Surya Deva]

I see 2 possibilities. 1) The occurrence is rare and those with the ability choose not to demonstrate it. 2) They can't demonstrate it. I don't think anyone should believe #1 by default.

I agree that nobody should believe #1 by default. However, if we can show that the ability being demonstrated is possible then there is no reason to disbelieve it. It can certainly be still disbelieved that a certain yogi can levitate, but the possibility of any yogi levitating should not be disbelieved, because it is a part of our possible universe.

Well that escalated quickly.

But bodily processes are still parts of the body. You certainly aren't necessarily wrong by any means, but I won't believe it because it has yet to be demonstrated.

This hinges on the assumption of space;that I have a body that is separate from another body and separate from the rest of the universe. However, it is shown that there is no space and effectively every body and the universe is interconnected. Then it follows that if I can demonstrate control even over my own body, then I can control any body or indeed the entire universe

Indeed, we know from quantum physics that there is no separability and thus it shows if the mind is capable of even controlling a single part, it can control every other part too. Much like if it possible for a single node of the internet to control one node, it can control every other node too through the networks. Yoga siddhis work in the same way; there is a network of pranas throughout the universe which connect every body and mind.

 

[Me Myself]

If people can levitate, why are there no controlled scientific experiments with these magical yogis doing so?

Because most humans don´t want science to know about it, so it won´t.

If this changes, we´ll see this in controlled enviroment.

 

[Storm]

Because most humans don´t want science to know about it, so it won´t.

If this changes, we´ll see this in controlled enviroment.

Or because reality is communal and they simply can't in a skeptical environment.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[Surya Deva]

Mind-matter interactions have already been demonstrated in controlled scientific conditions, such as telepathy, telekinesis and remote viewing. There is a strong body of research spanning a century in this field and especially in years the experiments have become more sophisticated and rigorous ruling out many other explanations like cheating, research bias etc

Really strong psychic abilities like those described in Yoga like levitation and teleportation are far too rare and require according to Yoga itself lifetimes of practice of Yoga. If it was so easy to develop omnipotent powers as Yoga describes, then we would see them a lot more frequently.

 

[Me Myself]

Or because reality is communal and they simply can't in a skeptical environment.

Just throwing it out there.

Agree entirely, I was also trying to say that but thanks for clarifying on my fail

Mind-matter interactions have already been demonstrated in controlled scientific conditions, such as telepathy, telekinesis and remote viewing. There is a strong body of research spanning a century in this field and especially in years the experiments have become more sophisticated and rigorous ruling out many other explanations like cheating, research bias etc

Really strong psychic abilities like those described in Yoga like levitation and teleportation are far too rare and require according to Yoga itself lifetimes of practice of Yoga. If it was so easy to develop omnipotent powers as Yoga describes, then we would see them a lot more frequently.

Links?

 

[Me Myself]

Or because reality is communal and they simply can't in a skeptical environment.

Just throwing it out there.

Ah! forgot to clear something out:

They may very well appear skeptical and feel consciously skeptical. As long as they have agreed on a subconscious deeper level that they were going to be baffled and their skepticism would be destroyed by the results, then it could still happen.

 

[Straw Dog]

Criss Angel can levitate! He also walked on water! I know before I saw it on television... Oh, wait...

 

[NIX]

I think clearly the most objective part of the human Being experience is the Human being. If the Human Race is counted as One Thing- or one observation/observer of reality- the Human Observation of reality- then you might call that experience of 'reality' the Subjective Human Experience.

That said, there is something Objectively Human there.
The observer cannot observe (subjectively) if there is no observer.

 

[1137]

Because most humans don´t want science to know about it, so it won´t.

If this changes, we´ll see this in controlled enviroment.

Or because reality is communal and they simply can't in a skeptical environment.

Just throwing it out there.

Haha such common cop-outs.

Mind-matter interactions have already been demonstrated in controlled scientific conditions, such as telepathy, telekinesis and remote viewing. There is a strong body of research spanning a century in this field and especially in years the experiments have become more sophisticated and rigorous ruling out many other explanations like cheating, research bias etc

Really strong psychic abilities like those described in Yoga like levitation and teleportation are far too rare and require according to Yoga itself lifetimes of practice of Yoga. If it was so easy to develop omnipotent powers as Yoga describes, then we would see them a lot more frequently.

I did not realize the extent of your beliefs. I can't believe I have been debating with someone who believes in telekinesis, teleportation , telepathy, etc.

Links?

:clap

 

[Storm]

Haha such common cop-outs.

Not a cop out. I just wanted to see how you'd react to the idea - I'm disappointed.

Let me be more direct: what do you think of communal reality?