• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Reality of global warming

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So what, that the temperature has risen almost one degree C over the last one hundred and thirty years has never been in dispute, blaming humans as the predominate cause is!

image_thumb6.png
Please see my earlier post where I outlined the many many lines of evidence that demonstrates beyond any doubt that green house gas emission has caused the temperature increase.. You are free to try and refute them if you can.

Reality of global warming

Also a one degree change is a major major change in the mean temperature of the planet. A 3-4 degree change will have a terrible impact. My earlier posts have also shown how a 1 degree chance has increased the number of extreme hot days in the world by 3 times normal values, soaring the number of people who are dying or hospitalized by heat strokes in the world. So your little graph trick may fool the eye, but does not fool nature.
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
If you choose a narrow enough scale, you can make that graph seem like a flat line.

Unfortunately we are only talking about a global rise of a few degrees to make the world unsustainable for much of the planets ecosystem.
Sure, but it hasn't risen a few degrees, only less than one, but that is not the point, there is no settled science as to the degree of human contribution relative to natural.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Please see my earlier post where I outlined the many many lines of evidence that demonstrates beyond any doubt that green house gas emission has caused the temperature increase.. You are free to try and refute them if you can.

Reality of global warming
Agw rhetoric does not count as proof, of the contributing factors to the warming, solar, cloud cover, volcanic, ocean currents, ocean convection, ocean oscillation, natural CO2, human derived CO2, precisely how much is due to each of these factors according to your understanding?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Agw rhetoric does not count as proof, of the contributing factors to the warming, precisely how much is due to human CO2 according to your understanding?
100%
Current natural cycles are going the other way. Earth will be cooling otherwise.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Agw rhetoric does not count as proof, of the contributing factors to the warming, solar, cloud cover, volcanic, ocean currents, ocean convection, ocean oscillation, natural CO2, human derived CO2, precisely how much is due to each of these factors according to your understanding?
Which part of the post I linked was rhetoric? Here it is again

It's entirely caused by human activity. Ancient climatic fluctuations are caused by changes in solar Flux entering the atmosphere and volcanic and erosional activity. All these are well known and well accounted for and these would be causing the climate to cool right now. Instead, due to CO2 generation, it's warming.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php



Firstly, the hypothetical natural cycle would have to explain the observed "fingerprints" of greenhouse gas-induced warming. Even if, for the sake of argument, we were to discount the direct measurements showing an increasedgreenhouse effect, other lines of evidence point to anthropogenic causes. For example, the troposphere (the lowest part of the atmosphere) is warming, but the levels above, from the stratosphere up, are cooling, as less radiation is escaping out to space. This rules out cycles related to the Sun, as solar influences would warm the entire atmosphere in a uniform fashion. The only explanation that makes sense is greenhouse gases.

What about an internal cycle, perhaps from volcanoes or the ocean, that releases massive amounts of greenhouse gases? This wouldn't make sense either, not only because scientists keep track of volcanic and oceanic emissions of CO2 and know that they are small compared to anthropogenic emissions, but also because CO2 from fossil fuels has its own fingerprints. Its isotopic signature is depleted in the carbon-13 isotope, which explains why the atmospheric ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-13 has been going up as anthropogenic carbon dioxide goes up. Additionally, atmospheric oxygen (O2) is decreasing at the same rate that CO2 is increasing, because oxygen is consumed when fossil fuels combust.

A natural cycle that fits all these fingerprints is nearly unfathomable. However, that's not all the cycle would have to explain. It would also have to tell us whyanthropogenic greenhouse gases are not having an effect. Either a century of basic physics and chemistry studying the radiative properties of greenhouse gases would have to be proven wrong, or the natural cycle would have to be unbelievably complex to prevent such dramatic anthropogenic emissions from warming the planet.


The human fingerprint in global warming


The first four pieces of evidence show that humans are raising CO2 levels:

  1. Humans are currently emitting around 30 billion tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere.
  2. Oxygen levels are falling as if carbon is being burned to create carbon dioxide.
  3. Fossil carbon is building up in the atmosphere. (We know this because the two types of carbon have different chemical properties.)
  4. Corals show that fossil carbon has recently risen sharply.
Another two observations show that CO2 is trapping more heat:

  1. Satellites measure less heat escaping to space at the precise wavelengths which CO2 absorbs.
  2. Surface measurements find this heat is returning to Earth to warm the surface.
The last four indicators show that the observed pattern of warming is consistent with what is predicted to occur during greenhouse warming:

  1. An increased greenhouse effect would make nights warm faster than days, and this is what has been observed.
  2. If the warming is due to solar activity, then the upper atmosphere (the stratosphere) should warm along with the rest of the atmosphere. But if the warming is due to the greenhouse effect, the stratosphere should cool because of the heat being trapped in the lower atmosphere (the troposphere). Satellite measurements show that the stratosphere is cooling.
  3. This combination of a warming troposphere and cooling stratosphereshould cause the tropopause, which separates them, to rise. This has also been observed.
  4. It was predicted that the ionosphere would shrink, and it is indeed shrinking.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
100%
Current natural cycles are going the other way. Earth will be cooling otherwise.
Sorry, I was editing my post as you posted this. So please provide your calculations for each of the contributions, solar, cloud cover, volcanic, ocean currents, ocean convection, ocean oscillation, natural CO2, and human derived CO2?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry, I was editing my post as you posted this. So please provide your calculations for each of the contributions, solar, cloud cover, volcanic, ocean currents, ocean convection, ocean oscillation, natural CO2, and human derived CO2?
See my last post. NASA has already calculated them. The natural forcings cause a minor decrease in temperature. Also note the unambiguous signatures of GHG driven warming that are observed.

anthropogenic_natural_climate_contribution.png
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Which part of the post I linked was rhetoric? Here it is again

It's entirely caused by human activity. Ancient climatic fluctuations are caused by changes in solar Flux entering the atmosphere and volcanic and erosional activity. All these are well known and well accounted for and these would be causing the climate to cool right now. Instead, due to CO2 generation, it's warming.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php



Firstly, the hypothetical natural cycle would have to explain the observed "fingerprints" of greenhouse gas-induced warming. Even if, for the sake of argument, we were to discount the direct measurements showing an increasedgreenhouse effect, other lines of evidence point to anthropogenic causes. For example, the troposphere (the lowest part of the atmosphere) is warming, but the levels above, from the stratosphere up, are cooling, as less radiation is escaping out to space. This rules out cycles related to the Sun, as solar influences would warm the entire atmosphere in a uniform fashion. The only explanation that makes sense is greenhouse gases.

What about an internal cycle, perhaps from volcanoes or the ocean, that releases massive amounts of greenhouse gases? This wouldn't make sense either, not only because scientists keep track of volcanic and oceanic emissions of CO2 and know that they are small compared to anthropogenic emissions, but also because CO2 from fossil fuels has its own fingerprints. Its isotopic signature is depleted in the carbon-13 isotope, which explains why the atmospheric ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-13 has been going up as anthropogenic carbon dioxide goes up. Additionally, atmospheric oxygen (O2) is decreasing at the same rate that CO2 is increasing, because oxygen is consumed when fossil fuels combust.

A natural cycle that fits all these fingerprints is nearly unfathomable. However, that's not all the cycle would have to explain. It would also have to tell us whyanthropogenic greenhouse gases are not having an effect. Either a century of basic physics and chemistry studying the radiative properties of greenhouse gases would have to be proven wrong, or the natural cycle would have to be unbelievably complex to prevent such dramatic anthropogenic emissions from warming the planet.


The human fingerprint in global warming


The first four pieces of evidence show that humans are raising CO2 levels:

  1. Humans are currently emitting around 30 billion tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere.
  2. Oxygen levels are falling as if carbon is being burned to create carbon dioxide.
  3. Fossil carbon is building up in the atmosphere. (We know this because the two types of carbon have different chemical properties.)
  4. Corals show that fossil carbon has recently risen sharply.
Another two observations show that CO2 is trapping more heat:

  1. Satellites measure less heat escaping to space at the precise wavelengths which CO2 absorbs.
  2. Surface measurements find this heat is returning to Earth to warm the surface.
The last four indicators show that the observed pattern of warming is consistent with what is predicted to occur during greenhouse warming:

  1. An increased greenhouse effect would make nights warm faster than days, and this is what has been observed.
  2. If the warming is due to solar activity, then the upper atmosphere (the stratosphere) should warm along with the rest of the atmosphere. But if the warming is due to the greenhouse effect, the stratosphere should cool because of the heat being trapped in the lower atmosphere (the troposphere). Satellite measurements show that the stratosphere is cooling.
  3. This combination of a warming troposphere and cooling stratosphereshould cause the tropopause, which separates them, to rise. This has also been observed.
  4. It was predicted that the ionosphere would shrink, and it is indeed shrinking.
If you claim that all natural contributions to global climate change are all in the cooling direction, please provide the respective quantitative cooling present now relative to say the last decade of the 20th century for each of the following, solar radiation, cloud cover, volcanic eruption activity, ocean oscillation, natural CO2?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
See my last post. NASA has already calculated them. The natural forcings cause a minor decrease in temperature. Also note the unambiguous signatures of GHG driven warming that are observed.
Well if NASA have provided them, you should be able to copy and post them? These specifically...solar, cloud cover, volcanic, ocean currents, ocean convection, ocean oscillation, natural CO2, Thank you in advance.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If you claim that all natural contributions to global climate change are all in the cooling direction, please provide the respective quantitative cooling present now relative to say the last decade of the 20th century for each of the following, solar radiation, cloud cover, volcanic eruption activity, ocean oscillation, natural CO2?
All the data have already been quantified and plotted by NASA. Just click the link and see
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php

It's in. png format. The figures cannot be posted in the forum on this format. Here is an alternate

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n1/full/ngeo1327.html


we demonstrate that known changes in the global energy balance and in radiative forcing tightly constrain the magnitude of anthropogenic warming. We find that since the mid-twentieth century, greenhouse gases contributed 0.85 °C of warming (5–95% uncertainty: 0.6–1.1 °C), about half of which was offset by the cooling effects of aerosols, with a total observed change in global temperature of about 0.56 °C. The observed trends are extremely unlikely (<5%) to be caused by internal variability, even if current models were found to strongly underestimate it. Our method is complementary to optimal fingerprinting attribution and produces fully consistent results, thus suggesting an even higher confidence that human-induced causes dominate the observed warming.

ngeo1327-f3.jpg
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
All the data have already been quantified and plotted by NASA. Just click the link and see
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php

It's in. png format. The figures cannot be posted in the forum on this format. Here is an alternate

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n1/full/ngeo1327.html


we demonstrate that known changes in the global energy balance and in radiative forcing tightly constrain the magnitude of anthropogenic warming. We find that since the mid-twentieth century, greenhouse gases contributed 0.85 °C of warming (5–95% uncertainty: 0.6–1.1 °C), about half of which was offset by the cooling effects of aerosols, with a total observed change in global temperature of about 0.56 °C. The observed trends are extremely unlikely (<5%) to be caused by internal variability, even if current models were found to strongly underestimate it. Our method is complementary to optimal fingerprinting attribution and produces fully consistent results, thus suggesting an even higher confidence that human-induced causes dominate the observed warming.

ngeo1327-f3.jpg
You seem not to understand what I am requiring of you? Have a read of Dr Judith Curry's paper for the layman on what agw models are based on. from that you will see that I am asking for the breakdown of each of the contributing factors.... http://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2017/02/Curry-2017.pdf
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The link takes me to a page that is irrelevant to my questions. I am asking for the quantitative contributions for the various factors I mentioned?
See the figure from the paper in the previous post. I have also pasted the figure for you.. The detailed analysis is here
Huber and Knutti Quantify Man-Made Global Warming

there is 95% certainty that external human caused forcings are responsible for between 74% and 122% of the observed warming since 1950, with a most likely value of close to 100%. Or as Dr. Knutti put it (personal communication):
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
See the figure from the paper in the previous post. I have also pasted the figure for you.. The detailed analysis is here
Huber and Knutti Quantify Man-Made Global Warming

there is 95% certainty that external human caused forcings are responsible for between 74% and 122% of the observed warming since 1950, with a most likely value of close to 100%. Or as Dr. Knutti put it (personal communication):
Again you seem not to understand, I am asking for a quantification of the various contributions? The only way to prove if certain claims are realistic, is to see how well they are able to predict climate change, and the most respected claims are those that made it into IPCC AR5. Now check out the CMIP projections and the relative forcings and see how they perform against reality, ie, actual temperature recorded?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You seem not to understand what I am requiring of you? Have a read of Dr Judith Curry's paper for the layman on what agw models are based on. from that you will see that I am asking for the breakdown of each of the contributing factors.... http://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2017/02/Curry-2017.pdf

Actually I have provided you with precisely what you are asking. Every natural and human caused factor has been quantified and its effect and uncertainty range separately shown.


Judith Curry's views on climatic models are completely at odds with their excellent reliability and widespread use. For the same physical and simulation principles are also used for weather predictions to design flows around airplanes for Boeing, Airbus etc. Everytime you are flying on a plane, you rely on precisely such models for your life. I know as I have done my masters research designing atmospheric and fluid dynamic modeling. I am far from a layman.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Again you seem not to understand, I am asking for a quantification of the various contributions? The only way to prove if certain claims are realistic, is to see how well they are able to predict climate change, and the most respected claims are those that made it into IPCC AR5. Now check out the CMIP projections and the relative forcings and see how they perform against reality, ie, actual temperature recorded?
Very very well. Can you not see the figure above? The black line is the actual data of temperature. The blue line is by natural forcing alone while the red line is the human caused part.

https://simpleclimate.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/huber11natgeo_pressfigures_v2.jpg

Note that both the temperature since 1880 is well fitted and the fact that it predicts that temperature rise will hit 1 degrees by the end of 2010 decade has come true.
 
Last edited:

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Sure, but it hasn't risen a few degrees, only less than one, but that is not the point, there is no settled science as to the degree of human contribution relative to natural.

I do not know what you mean by settled science?
There is a mass of undeniable evidence that attributes human activity to global warming.
There is also a number of very vocal unscientific deniers. especially in the USA. Almost all of them led by Carbon industry publicists.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Actually I have provided you with precisely what you are asking. Every natural and human caused factor has been quantified and its effect and uncertainty range separately shown.


Judith Curry's views on climatic models are completely at odds with their excellent reliability and widespread use. For the same physical and simulation principles are also used for weather predictions to design flows around airplanes for Boeing, Airbus etc. Everytime you are flying on a plane, you rely on precisely such models for your life. I know as I have done my masters research designing atmospheric and fluid dynamic modeling. I am far from a layman.
Mere rhetoric, agw papers claiming this and that are a dime a dozen, they are all based on models. No problem with that, but the credibility of the model will depend on its predictive efficacy. And that takes time. Now the reason I draw your attention to the IPCC models is that there has been time to see how they perform, and they mostly fail so far due to overestimating human derived CO2 forcing.

Clearly if human CO2 was 100% due for the warming, and the quantity of that CO2 was known, then the models should be able to predict future increase in temperature. To say that they failed because the natural contributions are not predictable is to admit the agw belief is B/S.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Very very well. Can you not see the figure above? The black line is the actual data of temperature. The blue line is by natural forcing alone while the red line is the human caused part.

huber11natgeo_pressfigures_v2.jpg
Which IPCC CMIP is this based on?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Mere rhetoric, agw papers claiming this and that are a dime a dozen, they are all based on models. No problem with that, but the credibility of the model will depend on its predictive efficacy. And that takes time. Now the reason I draw your attention to the IPCC models is that there has been time to see how they perform, and they mostly fail so far due to overestimating human derived CO2 forcing.

Clearly if human CO2 was 100% due for the warming, and the quantity of that CO2 was known, then the models should be able to predict future increase in temperature. To say that they failed because the natural contributions are not predictable is to admit the agw belief is B/S.
Actually the models have been quite accurate. The predictions have proved accurate in fitting past temperature and predicting this decades temperature rise. The links and figures I posted unambiguously demonstrate this
 
Top