Reason for Faith

[Riverwolf]

That all have sinned?

No, that the punishment for sin is death. Seems like SEVERE overkill.

 

[ryanam]

In order to be a Christian you HAVE to believe that for 98,000 years...

No you don't.

Yes you do. If God exists, and he was in existence through the entire time we've been on this planet (an estimated 100,000 years), then for 98,000 years what I wrote applies. If you don't believe it then you aren't a Christian.

How can you be?

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes you do. If God exists, and he was in existence through the entire time we've been on this planet (an estimated 100,000 years), then for 98,000 years what I wrote applies. If you don't believe it then you aren't a Christian.

How can you be?

Why is it necessary? You can be a Christian without believing the mythology literally.

 

[Breathe]

Yes you do. <<snip>> If you don't believe it then you aren't a Christian.

How can you be?

I'm not being aggressive or rude, but if you are not a Christian, why do you think your view should have any authority over what a Christian does or does not believe, and if they do not believe something like this, then they are not a Christian?

I've never understood why non-adherents of one religion tell adherents of that religion what they do or do not believe. I've seen this done with Buddhists claiming that Hinduism as well.

 

[javajo]

No, that the punishment for sin is death. Seems like SEVERE overkill.

I know what you mean. I can only share what I believe. I take the Bible at what it says, and some things are very difficult. Another word for it is that the result of sin is death. It is physical, spiritual death and eternal separation from God. God told Adam and Eve that the day they eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would die. When they ate, they lost their immortality and began to die physically. They died spiritually toward God as well, although he restored them. To be eternally separated from God who is life, who gives life, is eternal death, but you're conscious. Very scary stuff to be sure. But I've experienced it, sin always leads to death and destruction.

Yes you do. If God exists, and he was in existence through the entire time we've been on this planet (an estimated 100,000 years), then for 98,000 years what I wrote applies. If you don't believe it then you aren't a Christian.

How can you be?

I don't have to believe we've been here for 100,000 years to be a Christian, I just have to believe in Christ.

 

[Riverwolf]

I know what you mean. I can only share what I believe. I take the Bible at what it says, and some things are very difficult. Another word for it is that the result of sin is death. It is physical, spiritual death and eternal separation from God. God told Adam and Eve that the day they eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would die. When they ate, they lost their immortality and began to die physically. They died spiritually toward God as well, although he restored them. To be eternally separated from God who is life, who gives life, is eternal death, but you're conscious. Very scary stuff to be sure. But I've experienced it, sin always leads to death and destruction.

I prefer the belief that it's redeemable at any time, and ultimately, EVERYONE will return to God; i.e., that this separation from God is not eternal.

 

[Jainarayan]

Cool, I'll have to check them out. I am reminded of, God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34b-35

I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him. Bhagavad Gita 9.29

This is what I believe. The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That the penalty of sin is death. It says how Christ paid that penalty for us all by dying on the cross. Now all who trust him that he did that are freely and eternally saved.

Yeah, and that's not something that I can believe.

Me neither. Sin is an action, not a state, though we all sin. In my belief, the penalty of sin is not death, but rebirth.

 

[javajo]

I prefer the belief that it's redeemable at any time, and ultimately, EVERYONE will return to God; i.e., that this separation from God is not eternal.

I prefer to believe that, too, but I don't find it to be scriptural, although a Universalist would disagree. I don't know that one who rejects God now would accept God later and if they get others to reject God then the consequences of their sins would have an eternal impact on those people they influenced so the separation would be eternal as well. Anyway, while it is a hard thing to imagine, accept or understand, the Bible speaks of it as eternal.

 

[javajo]

I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him. Bhagavad Gita 9.29

I like that, which god is supposed to have said that?

Me neither. Sin is an action, not a state, though we all sin.

If I lie, that makes me a liar.
If I steal, that makes me a thief.
If I commit adultery, that makes me an adulterer.
If I sin, that makes me a...sinner.

In my belief, the penalty of sin is not death, but rebirth.

Reincarnation, I see. In my belief, the Bible says in Hebrews 9:27, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

 

[Jainarayan]

I like that, which god is supposed to have said that?

Sri Krishna.

Yes, but those are still actions. You are the actor or the doer. Your normal state is not one of sin. Sin is a wrong action.

 

[javajo]

Sri Krishna.

Yes, but those are still actions. You are the actor or the doer. Your normal state is not one of sin. Sin is a wrong action.

Do you consider your religion to be Hare Krishna or just Vaishnava Hindu?

 

[Jainarayan]

Just Vaishnava, a liberal one. Hare Krishnas are a strict Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, though they generally don't like to consider themselves Hindu. There are sects within sects.

 

[javajo]

Just Vaishnava, a liberal one. Hare Krishnas are a strict Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, though they generally don't like to consider themselves Hindu. There are sects within sects.

I see, thanks.

 

[Riverwolf]

I prefer to believe that, too, but I don't find it to be scriptural, although a Universalist would disagree. I don't know that one who rejects God now would accept God later and if they get others to reject God then the consequences of their sins would have an eternal impact on those people they influenced so the separation would be eternal as well. Anyway, while it is a hard thing to imagine, accept or understand, the Bible speaks of it as eternal.

And that's why I don't follow it.

 

[Riverwolf]

I like that, which god is supposed to have said that?

If I lie, that makes me a liar.

And if you once lied, but do not anymore, you are no longer a liar.

If I steal, that makes me a thief.

If at one time you stole, but you do not anymore, you are no longer a thief.

If I commit adultery, that makes me an adulterer.

If you once committed adultery, but do not anymore, you are no longer an adulterer.

If I sin, that makes me a...sinner.

But if you once sinned... you get the idea. ^_^

 

[javajo]

And if you once lied, but do not anymore, you are no longer a liar...But if you once sinned... you get the idea. ^_^

In my belief, the Bible says that if we break one command we are guilty of all in James. If you lie only once you are a liar and are guilty before God. Christ paid the penalty for that sin. We can pay for it ourselves or we can trust Christ for it. Only then does God consider us holy, because we are given Christ's righteousness to replace our own faulty righteousness. Besides, we have a sinful nature, we all sin every day in many ways, so we are all guilty before a holy and just God.

 

[Riverwolf]

In my belief, the Bible says that if we break one command we are guilty of all in James. If you lie only once you are a liar and are guilty before God. Christ paid the penalty for that sin. We can pay for it ourselves or we can trust Christ for it. Only then does God consider us holy, because we are given Christ's righteousness to replace our own faulty righteousness. Besides, we have a sinful nature, we all sin every day in many ways, so we are all guilty before a holy and just God.

Well, I can't accept that as just.

 

[ratikala]

In my belief, the Bible says that if we break one command we are guilty of all in James. If you lie only once you are a liar and are guilty before God. Christ paid the penalty for that sin. We can pay for it ourselves or we can trust Christ for it. Only then does God consider us holy, because we are given Christ's righteousness to replace our own faulty righteousness. Besides, we have a sinful nature, we all sin every day in many ways, so we are all guilty before a holy and just God.

excuse me , I am not well versed in the bible , but what about repentance ?
surely the parable of the prodical son illustrates the lords propencity for forgiveness ,was the father not overcome with joy at the return of his wayward son , and welcomed him with open arms because he came to him asking his forgiveness ? and when the faithfull son asked of his father why he should welcome him so , the father replied , for he was lost and is now found .

personaly I find it hard to fully understand the position of jesus in that he died for our sins , should we not realise our sinfull nature and repent ?

there I have strong faith , for I am certain that by realising my failings , being penitant when realising my wrongs , and through resolve and effort to overcome my weaknesses that I will come steadily closer to god .

why I am certain ?

ask a gaudia vaisnava about surrender ? he will tell you about gods love , gods mercy
then you will understand why he is happy

p.s. surrender equals faith , faith equals surrender , it is self perpetuating and it makes one happy

 

[javajo]

excuse me , I am not well versed in the bible , but what about repentance ?
surely the parable of the prodical son illustrates the lords propencity for forgiveness ,was the father not overcome with joy at the return of his wayward son , and welcomed him with open arms because he came to him asking his forgiveness ? and when the faithfull son asked of his father why he should welcome him so , the father replied , for he was lost and is now found .

personaly I find it hard to fully understand the position of jesus in that he died for our sins , should we not realise our sinfull nature and repent ?

there I have strong faith , for I am certain that by realising my failings , being penitant when realising my wrongs , and through resolve and effort to overcome my weaknesses that I will come steadily closer to god .

why I am certain ?

ask a gaudia vaisnava about surrender ? he will tell you about gods love , gods mercy
then you will understand why he is happy

I can only say what I believe. I think God is like the father in the story of the Prodigal Son and when we realize we have sinned and cry out to him, he is right there and forgives us right then and there. Christ did not die for our sins, he died to pay the penalty of our sins. The result of sin is death. The Bible teaches that we all have sinned and the penalty is death (physical, spiritual, and eternal). Since Christ paid the penalty, we don't have to. He bridged the gap between us and God so when we trust him that our sins are paid for, and they truly are, we don't have to pay the penalty and we are given Christ's righteousness in place of our own which is quite inadequate to a holy God. When we turn to God, we are admitting our sinful nature and basically turning from sin to God. I believe salvation is not achieved by anything we do over time, but it is a gift that is received so anyone may be saved and be a child of God. This is why I am happy, too because of God's great love and mercy. He just had to pay for our sins because he cannot let sin go unpunished or he is not just. The wonderful thing is he loved us so much that he paid for our sins himself.

 

[ratikala]

I can only say what I believe. I think God is like the father in the story of the Prodigal Son and when we realize we have sinned and cry out to him, he is right there and forgives us right then and there. Christ did not die for our sins, he died to pay the penalty of our sins. The result of sin is death. The Bible teaches that we all have sinned and the penalty is death (physical, spiritual, and eternal). Since Christ paid the penalty, we don't have to. He bridged the gap between us and God so when we trust him that our sins are paid for, and they truly are, we don't have to pay the penalty and we are given Christ's righteousness in place of our own which is quite inadequate to a holy God. When we turn to God, we are admitting our sinful nature and basically turning from sin to God. I believe salvation is not achieved by anything we do over time, but it is a gift that is received so anyone may be saved and be a child of God. This is why I am happy, too because of God's great love and mercy. He just had to pay for our sins because he cannot let sin go unpunished or he is not just. The wonderful thing is he loved us so much that he paid for our sins himself.

thank you that is a very nice thought ,
particularly "spiritual death " being the price we pay , I will reflect on that , the result of sin is spiritual death ?
I agree with"gods great love and mercy" yes I too am happy for that .

"THE WONDERFULL THING IS HE LOVED US SO MUCH THAT HE PAID FOR OUR SINS HIMSELF "

that is a nice explanation