Reasons to not believe in God? Discuss....

[Truth_Faith13]

OK so I have been having a lovely chat with the guys over on the atheism DIR regarding reasons they don't believe in God/follow any particular religion. A couple of the reasons mentioned make a valid point, but personally I don't find them reasons to not believe in God entirely. Being the atheism DIR, I didn't want to cause a debate so it was suggested I start a thread. It would actually be a great topic to explore the differing reasons people choose not to believe (or of course believe in the flip side) and the counter arguments which can be used for the opposing?

Here is the one from the other thread, but please feel free to add and discuss/debate your own...

Reason: the vast number of denominations/religions

Now on the surface, I can fully understand this perspective. I certainly have times where I feel "why bother", on the assumption there is a God of some sort or gods, it would be impossible to work out which is the "right" one to follow. I know some people believe that every religion leads to the same destination but I personally do not believe this.

That said I don't believe this is reason to not believe in God (however you view him or her) entirely and here's why....

Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?

So why doesn't God make it more clear to us? But would we listen? Has anybody been utterly in "love" at a young age...parents have said its a bad idea (the truth) but we didn't listen? Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, I know many of us including me would have to change our lives in someway. Even if God was to make it abundantly clear...would we follow? Or would we choose to disobey? Has anybody heard when Michael Jackson went to his own look alike competition and LOST...MJ himself was there and no one thought it was him? What would God have to do for us to accept him? A burning bush would be out down to an hallucination these days...

The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.

Thoughts? Ideas?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Thoughts? Ideas?

If I wanted to believe in God, what would I be believing in? Can you describe it?

 

[LuisDantas]

As I believe I said already, I don't see a particularly need for justifying disbelief, much unlike belief in God, which does need a reason even if only one of personal preference.

That said, let's go on.

Reason: the vast number of denominations/religions

Now on the surface, I can fully understand this perspective. I certainly have times where I feel "why bother", on the assumption there is a God of some sort or gods, it would be impossible to work out which is the "right" one to follow. I know some people believe that every religion leads to the same destination but I personally do not believe this.

That said I don't believe this is reason to not believe in God (however you view him or her) entirely and here's why....

Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?

The working premises here seem to be that some variety of Abraham's God exists and that at least one religion exists that sincerely attempts to create a functional bridge to his will.

That is fine if one can make it work, I guess. I find it a bit too shot-in-the-dark for my tastes, but everyone must have his or her own ideas.

Personally, I find the revelead religion model quite unsatisfying. A Dharmic approach, regardless of how certain one may be of the existence of some sort of deity, is far better if perhaps a bit harder.

So why doesn't God make it more clear to us? But would we listen? Has anybody been utterly in "love" at a young age...parents have said its a bad idea (the truth) but we didn't listen? Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, I know many of us including me would have to change our lives in someway. Even if God was to make it abundantly clear...would we follow? Or would we choose to disobey?

Who knows whether there is even a God, much less how well comparisons to parents apply to him. Even so, I am a bit surprised by what seems to be an assumption that people will just refuse to listen to a loving God for apparently no reason. A further complicator is that supposed God wanted to create us with such an odd attitude, which seems quite self-defeating to me.

Personally, I just don't see any reason to take such a set of assumptions.

Has anybody heard when Michael Jackson went to his own look alike competition and LOST...MJ himself was there and no one thought it was him? What would God have to do for us to accept him? A burning bush would be out down to an hallucination these days...

Why would God want us to accept him in the first place? It seems to me that it can't be generally very important that we do. If it were, we would have to explain either how come he decided to make us unaware of that.

If God exists, it is obvious to me that he does not see belief as a very needed thing at all.

The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.

Thoughts? Ideas?

There can easily be a God. There are some very much open questions that follow, though.

1. Is there?

2. If so, what is he like and how can we even tell that there is one?

3. If there is a God, why did he choose to make us basically clueless about his existence, nature and will?

4. If it is important to know of and believe in God, then why is it even possible to be unaware of him? Doesn't that disprove the notion that atheism is somehow wrong?

5. If there is a God, how deeply connected, if at all, is he connected to religion? How deeply should he be? Which circunstances influence that answer?

Myself, I very much doubt there are any gods that are not human creations, and I see the concept as a completely optional, even abused one. Religion is far more important than God, albeit also a lot more fallible... but it has the important advantage of being undeniably real and significant.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

If I wanted to believe in God, what would I be believing in? Can you describe it?

Depends which religion you believed in?

For me personally, it's a sense of having someone above me, beside me and in me. Guiding me, supporting me, comforting me. I have tried to think about not believing and for me it's just not possible (I should note, for me belief in God is separate to organised religion as I hope my post above explained?). When I look at kids, nature, a kind word, deed, good coming from bad etc I see Him. I can't possibly imagine the wonders of the human mind ceasing to exist after death - all that we are, all that we have learned, the human brain is so complex we still don't fully understand it...yet atheism believes all that goes to dust?

 

[LuisDantas]

Depends which religion you believed in?

For me personally, it's a sense of having someone above me, beside me and in me. Guiding me, supporting me, comforting me. I have tried to think about not believing and for me it's just not possible (I should note, for me belief in God is separate to organised religion as I hope my post above explained?). When I look at kids, nature, a kind word, deed, good coming from bad etc I see Him.

You are definitely not alone.

All the same, that is one possible reading of the concept, among a considerable variety of others that are not often mutually compatible.

I can't possibly imagine the wonders of the human mind ceasing to exist after death - all that we are, all that we have learned, the human brain is so complex we still don't fully understand it...yet atheism believes all that goes to dust?

The human brain? Sure. The evidence of our mortality is overwhelming, after all.

It does not have to be a reason for angst, though. We can simply do our best and aim to leave good fruits and seeds while we are alive.

That has to be enough for anyone. If for no other reason, because it is not reasonable to expect or demand any more.

 

[Katzpur]

For me personally, it's a sense of having someone above me, beside me and in me. Guiding me, supporting me, comforting me. I have tried to think about not believing and for me it's just not possible (I should note, for me belief in God is separate to organised religion as I hope my post above explained?). When I look at kids, nature, a kind word, deed, good coming from bad etc I see Him. I can't possibly imagine the wonders of the human mind ceasing to exist after death - all that we are, all that we have learned, the human brain is so complex we still don't fully understand it...yet atheism believes all that goes to dust?

Everything you have said in this particular post resonates with me. Although I suppose I would look at it quite differently if I didn't believe in God, to me personally, my own existence is proof of His existence. I cannot conceive (and I have tried) of there not being a God. No matter what religion I was, I would have some sort of a belief in a God that created me and loves me. It's like it's an inborn conviction that I can't shake. (Not that I would want to. )

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Depends which religion you believed in?

Religions are artificial constructs of men. I think that anyone who follows a religion is not following God.

For me personally, it's a sense of having someone above me, beside me and in me.

Someone? Or some thing? If God has a personality, how is that personality expressed? What can God actually do in our world?

Guiding me, supporting me, comforting me.

It sounds like a guardian angel would be the same for you as a God?

I can't possibly imagine the wonders of the human mind ceasing to exist after death - all that we are, all that we have learned, the human brain is so complex we still don't fully understand it...yet atheism believes all that goes to dust?

I have a relative who was struck by a train as a teenager. He's been almost vegetative every since. He might prefer that his mind ceases to exist when he dies.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The human brain? Sure. The evidence of our mortality is overwhelming, after all.

It does not have to be a reason for angst, though. We can simply do our best and aim to leave good fruits and seeds while we are alive.

That has to be enough for anyone. If for no other reason, because it is not reasonable to expect or demand any more.

Even if there is more, what difference does it make to our lives? All we can do is live as honestly as we can. If there is a heaven, great. But I can't make heaven more likely by believing in it.

 

[Willamena]

Depends which religion you believed in?

For me personally, it's a sense of having someone above me, beside me and in me. Guiding me, supporting me, comforting me.

But I already have an invisible friend. Why would I need a creator of all to walk with me?

 

[Thief]

It's a control thing.
No God...nothing bigger than you.
No afterlife to plan for.

Compromise in this life?.....sure....no one escapes.
Compromise for the next life?.....sure.....

But with no one in Charge....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Truth_Faith13,

Now that we're in the general debate area where you're able to speak freely, would you be able to respond to what I said in the DIR?

For me, the biggest inconsistency in the Bible isn't in the book itself.

Imagine you wanted to communicate a message to all of humanity. You have the ability to use any imaginable method to communicate this message. What method would you choose?

Option A: tell each person directly in their own language. Tailor what you say to each person so that it's accepted and understood.

Option B: tell a small group of people in one language. Ask them to tell everyone else, which they do (slowly and imperfectly) in a game of broken telephone over several thousand years involving varying interpretations and agendas, and imperfect translations to new languages.

No reasonably intelligent person, let alone a wise an all-knowing God, would pick Option B. This is especially true for miracle claims. I think it was Thomas Paine who pointed out that a miracle is only a miracle for the person who witnesses it directly; for everyone else, it's just hearsay.

No matter how I look at the Bible, I can't see it as consistent in any way with the idea that it's the product of a wise and powerful God who is interested in communicating a message to humanity. OTOH, I think it's entirely consistent with the idea that it's a human creation.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Religions are artificial constructs of men. I think that anyone who follows a religion is not following God.



Someone? Or some thing? If God has a personality, how is that personality expressed? What can God actually do in our world?



It sounds like a guardian angel would be the same for you as a God?



I have a relative who was struck by a train as a teenager. He's been almost vegetative every since. He might prefer that his mind ceases to exist when he dies.

No to me a guardian angel is another creation of God. I believe He has a personality.

I'm sorry about your relative, that must be very difficult! Why do you believe he would want his mind to cease AFTER death?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe in many Gods. Just not some omni-whatever god that created everything. I don't view my relationship with my Gods as being a parent/child relationship. I am not a child and don't wish to be treated as one. I view my Gods as more like teachers and friends. I learn from them. My relationship to my Gods is more like a bunch of anarchists who are sharing knowledge and wisdom with one another as kindred spirits.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Reason: the vast number of denominations/religions

Now on the surface, I can fully understand this perspective. I certainly have times where I feel "why bother", on the assumption there is a God of some sort or gods, it would be impossible to work out which is the "right" one to follow. I know some people believe that every religion leads to the same destination but I personally do not believe this.

That said I don't believe this is reason to not believe in God (however you view him or her) entirely and here's why....

Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?

You agree that many religions are manmade. Do any of them have anything going for them above and beyond the false ones?

Also, it's normally reasonable to assume common causes for common effects. If some of them are not caused by God (and you seem to agree that this is true), what reason do we have to assume that some of them have a different cause (i.e. God) even though they're similar in form and appearance to the non-God ones?

 

[LuisDantas]

It's a control thing.
No God...nothing bigger than you.

That is just plainly untrue. That are literally thousands of things "bigger than me" that one can align with, by any reasonable judgement.

No afterlife to plan for.

Afterlife is very over-rated. Even if we knew that it exists, one can't help but notice that there are very diverging opinions about what it is like and how one can improve his or her circunstances there.

As teachings go, this one ends up being of little actual religious value. Often enough it is in fact clearly detrimental.

Compromise in this life?.....sure....no one escapes.
Compromise for the next life?.....sure.....

But with no one in Charge....

What do you mean "no one in Charge"? Atheism makes every one of us more responsible for the overall well-being, not less.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's a control thing.
No God...nothing bigger than you.
No afterlife to plan for.

Compromise in this life?.....sure....no one escapes.
Compromise for the next life?.....sure.....

But with no one in Charge....

It's not clear to me what you're getting at here.
Is this a list of reasons not to believe in gods?
Or are they advantages?

Anyway, I see only a single reason to not believe in gods.....utter lack of evidence.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Truth_Faith13,

Now that we're in the general debate area where you're able to speak freely, would you be able to respond to what I said in the DIR?

Sure

You actually raise very valid points..and I honestly don't know the true answer.

Obviously for those who believe in Christ, He was here for 33years and teaching himself for 3 of those years. Then men screwed it up I guess!

Miracles, yes there are many which were false, but some are probably true. There seems to be a pattern here of "we've not witnessed it, therefore it can't be true". It's interesting but just because people are unaware of things..God/miracles etc and they have themselves not experienced it does it mean they are not true? I've not experienced India, but I know it's true - it's real, it exists. I might hear some hearsay about it, some things that aren't true, from the words of others (their opinions) but that doesn't change that it's not there. This is sort of similar to the question...if no one is there to hear it, does a tree blowing in the wind, still make a sound? This sort of stuff fascinates me and it is truly a testament to the wonders of the human mind.

LuisDantas raised some very good questions which ran along the same sort of lines. I can sense God, I don't claim to know everything about Him but I know he is there. I don't think I need to know everything about Him necessarily. My mum very much exists, but I have times when I'm not thinking about her. In some sense you could say I was "unaware" (ok I know this isn't exactly the same)...I'm just trying to illustrate that in my personal opinion, just because you are unaware of something/haven't witnessed it/seen it...doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Why does he allow this? I'm unsure...we are probably back to free will? Maybe he is only allowed in, if we let him, if we ask him. Maybe he is outside, banging on the door trying to get us to listen to him. I really don't know for sure. What I do know is as humans, we can ignore things that we are aware of, so maybe it's easiest for us to claim something doesn't exist.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Even if there is more, what difference does it make to our lives? All we can do is live as honestly as we can. If there is a heaven, great. But I can't make heaven more likely by believing in it.

Except if the ones who say you are going to hell if you don't do this or that are true...we are all screwed. That's the problem with the multiple man made religions...it's impossible to know what God expects and if there is a heavens and hell, how to stay out of hell!

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm sorry about your relative, that must be very difficult! Why do you believe he would want his mind to cease AFTER death?

Let's make him a self-loathing pedophile. He hates himself but can't stop himself.

Why would you (or he) want his mind to continue after death?

I mean, do you think that all of our negative qualities and mental illnesses will be wiped away when our minds survive death?

If so, it's not really 'us' who survives, is it?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Except if the ones who say you are going to hell if you don't do this or that are true...we are all screwed. That's the problem with the multiple man made religions...it's impossible to know what God expects and if there is a heavens and hell, how to stay out of hell!

Yeah, there's no way to be safe. Christians will go to the Muslim hell, and Muslims will populate the Christian hell.

It's why I have no fear of hell. If it's unavoidable, why waste time thinking about it.