Reasons to not believe in God? Discuss....

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The one thing I would say, is, could this not be down to humans again? If every human had accepted Christ and not rejected Him (remember people rejected him to his face!) if every human had read the Bible and translated it error free, over 2000years, surely the whole planet would have heard the gospel? In fact, I don't know of many people who wouldn't have heard of it, even with history as it is and how it happened, they just choose not to believe because of their culture (man made) or parents (man made). There may be some distant tribes who haven't heard but since apparently all tribes have now been identified, assuming God is real, surely it would have been the Christians duty to take them the gospel? If people haven't due to lack of faith, surely that's down to humans, not God?

Do you think that someone who only had a missionary tell him nth-hand stories about things that happened 2000 years ago has as much of an opportunity to accept Christ as Saul/Paul did?

If each of us doesn't get our own Damascus Road experience - or something equally compelling - then God isn't giving everyone an equal opportunity to accept him.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

That's what led me down the rabbit hole too. I was a fundamental, YEC, Bible-thumping Christian.

But then I started thinking: Everybody doesn't have the same chance at accepting Christianity, based upon differences in culture and how they are raised. If Christianity is true, then it must be fair-- everyone must get an equal chance at salvation. Since this is manifestly not so, therefore, Christianity cannot be true.

And so my foundation crumbled.

Wow. That must have been an experience. I was also raised in Christian fundamentalism, but one day as a child I learned that Santa Claus wasn't real. By the following day God was seriously in question... disbelieved until further evidence might come along.

But I grew up in a cloud. I had vaguely let loose of God, but it wasn't until young adulthood that I woke up and began to study the God problem with words and therefore real rationality.

Believing that stuff into adulthood and then dropping it?

Wow. What a trip.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

It's not that you're supposed to know everything; it's that you're supposed to be able to back up what you think you know with reasons and evidence.

There's plenty of stuff that we don't know anything about, but here's the thing: we don't know anything about that stuff. When people start making claims about things they know nothing about, we can dismiss what they say as made up.

That's what happened when what's his named claimed the world was flat instead of round? Or whoever it was that said the earth rotates around the sun and not visa versa. Knowledge has to have a start somewhere, you don't go from nothing to everything, some things take time.

Take cancer...how long has research been going on with that, we know some things about it, but we don't know all. In some things we imply and infer but can't 100% prove until later knowledge comes along.

Sometimes the evidence/reasons comes years after the claim was first made.

 

[Falvlun]

Hmmm... as an atheist, I wouldn't say I have reasons for disbelief as much as a lack of reasons for belief.

This is very well put. Should be bolded and put front page.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

YEC?

Young earth creationist.

Which is bizarre to me, considering the crisp rationality which Falvlun exhibits today. How could he (or she?) have reconciled YEC with rational thought?

The one thing I would say, is, could this not be down to humans again? If every human had accepted Christ and not rejected Him (remember people rejected him to his face!) if every human had read the Bible and translated it error free, over 2000years, surely the whole planet would have heard the gospel? In fact, I don't know of many people who wouldn't have heard of it, even with history as it is and how it happened, they just choose not to believe because of their culture (man made) or parents (man made). There may be some distant tribes who haven't heard but since apparently all tribes have now been identified, assuming God is real, surely it would have been the Christians duty to take them the gospel? If people haven't due to lack of faith, surely that's down to humans, not God?

Humans are at least 100,000 years old. Maybe a million. But even if we start with the Great Awakening (cave art, burial of their dead, etc.) humans are 35,000 years old.

So why did Jesus come 33,000 years late?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Do you think that someone who only had a missionary tell him nth-hand stories about things that happened 2000 years ago has as much of an opportunity to accept Christ as Saul/Paul did?

If each of us doesn't get our own Damascus Road experience - or something equally compelling - then God isn't giving everyone an equal opportunity to accept him.

Yes I do think they can....the same way I can learn about my ancestors from reading their history. We very easily accept history, yet for some reason history when it comes to belief is rejected and we expect first hand experience.

Granted belief has a lot more at stake then knowing who fort which battle, when, where and how but the same principle is still there....we learn about people of the past from books, word of mouth handed down through the centuries and other peoples experiences.

Not all of the apostles had the Damascus experience, some he just said "follow me" and they did. Sometimes the experience comes after the faith. Jesus often rebuked the apostles for having little faith. They follow him and then they saw his miracles.

Seeing is believing or believing is seeing....

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Young earth creationist.

Which is bizarre to me, considering the crisp rationality which Falvlun exhibits today. How could he (or she?) have reconciled YEC with rational thought?



Humans are at least 100,000 years old. Maybe a million. But even if we start with the Great Awakening (cave art, burial of their dead, etc.) humans are 35,000 years old.

So why did Jesus come 33,000 years late?

Ooh you were really into hard core Christianity. Yeah I'm def not YEC...

...good question, no idea..

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's what happened when what's his named claimed the world was flat instead of round? Or whoever it was that said the earth rotates around the sun and not visa versa. Knowledge has to have a start somewhere, you don't go from nothing to everything, some things take time.

Take cancer...how long has research been going on with that, we know some things about it, but we don't know all. In some things we imply and infer but can't 100% prove until later knowledge comes along.

Sometimes the evidence/reasons comes years after the claim was first made.

And until that evidence materializes, it's not reasonable to accept the idea.

Sometimes, paradigm-shifting ideas end up being false. How do you tell the difference between an idea that's false and an idea that's true? Evidence. Until you have that evidence, you can't tell whether the idea is true or not. Until then, we're just guessing, so it's intellectually dishonest to hold our opinions up as anything more than that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Ooh you were really into hard core Christianity. Yeah I'm def not YEC...

Not me. Falvlun said he was once YEC. Although my family was rife with fundamentalist preachers, including my father, I left the religion mentally at maybe 13 and physically when I left home at 18 or so.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Not me. Falvlun said he was once YEC. Although my family was rife with fundamentalist preachers, including my father, I left the religion mentally at maybe 13 and physically when I left home at 18 or so.

Oh yeah sorry, confusion there

Do you think your parents fundamentalism contributed to you leaving religion?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Do you think your parents fundamentalism contributed to you leaving religion?

No. I think some of us are just born skeptics. I have a BS detector for which I can claim no credit. It's apparently part of the hardware.

Also I feel icky when doing Godbusiness in a crowd. When I was fourteen, my grandfather called on me to give the closing prayer at a Sunday church service. I did it, but I felt dirty for a long time afterwards, as if I'd been forced to masturbate in public or somesuch.

People are just built differently.

 

[outhouse]

Thoughts? Ideas?

I believe man has a long history of creating deities.

I see no reason that Israelites got it right when they couldnt even describe their own past with any accuracy what so ever, and they used deities that existed before them from another culture alltogether.


Everyting points to them creating and defining said deity to meet their own cultural needs. Not only that we see man constantly redefining their deity as needs change.


We also see Iasraelites compiling two different previous deities into one deity, which is sort of proof that they created their own god.

Add to that that they knew nothing of the natural world arond them and attributed nature to a deity is nothing but primitive ignorance. They factually lived their lives in mythology because thay didnt know any better. They literally thought little tiny people ran around inside your body, their health care also steeped in mythology. All due to their ignorance.


Through knowledge and education, I see no reason that something that I view as created by man, exist outside mythology. The more I study and the more I learn, the more I undrestand human nature and the instinctual need for this father figure and peoples fear they will never see loved ones again.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I believe man has a long history of creating deities.

I see no reason that Israelites got it right when they couldnt even describe their own past with any accuracy what so ever, and they used deities that existed before them from another culture alltogether.


Everyting points to them creating and defining said deity to meet their own cultural needs. Not only that we see man constantly redefining their deity as needs change.


We also see Iasraelites compiling two different previous deities into one deity, which is sort of proof that they created their own god.

Add to that that they knew nothing of the natural world arond them and attributed nature to a deity is nothing but primitive ignorance. They factually lived their lives in mythology because thay didnt know any better. They literally thought little tiny people ran around inside your body, their health care also steeped in mythology. All due to their ignorance.


Through knowledge and education, I see no reason that something that I view as created by man, exist outside mythology. The more I study and the more I learn, the more I undrestand human nature and the instinctual need for this father figure and peoples fear they will never see loved ones again.

Interesting...who are you referring to when you say two deities were made into one?

 

[Twilight Hue]

With regards to the MJ event....he had direct communication and interaction with them and he lost? So why would God be any different, why if he gave us direct communication and interaction, would we not say "sorry think you are a look a like and a bad one at that".

It was still an objective event. A contest. Concerning a real already verified person of whom nobody says never existed because people have satisfactorily confirmed prior that there is a genuine Michael Jackson unto which a look alike contest can be based upon. There is no objective established foundation concerning God unless you can draw a parrall satisfactorily establishing God in the same manner as Michael Jackson..Hopefully without so many facelifts.. . ;0)

One has to ask then is how did we find out he was there and lost afterwards? Obviously he announced himself and presented his credentials.

Until such an event and announcement by a God whereas a proclamation and credentials established and continually so in light of our finite lifespans , no one will ever know in the first place. Including Christians themselves. So far, the reality of the matter remains silent.

I think you misunderstood my point about us failing to listen/read signs etc. I didn't mean God doesn't show up because of that, but he may very well have shown up/be here and we still wouldn't notice him. There is a passage non the bible about being careful who you turn away as you may very well be entertaining angels. He has come to us as man before, He could quite easily be the homeless person in the street, the abused child, the person with mental illness or the old woman asking for help. He could very easily be here, watching us.

Right, making it still all pure conjecture based upon human sourcing only. No confirmation anywhere else is there, just human beings talking to each other writing down stories and alleged events to one another as everything directly stands. The universe still remains silent and indifferent to what we believe in, who is allegedly visiting and watching us, and why.

 

[monti]

But I can't make heaven more likely by believing in it.

Very true. I suppose one could liken it to the liar who believes that if he repeats his lies over and over they become true, which is a lie.

 

[outhouse]

Interesting...who are you referring to when you say two deities were made into one?

El and Yahweh were combined sometime before 800BC only by certain groups not all Israelites.

Most of the compilation was done with the monotheistic reforms of King Josiah after 622 BC when the OT legends went through major redactions with a now governement backed loyalty to Yahweh and him alone.

 

[Falvlun]

Young earth creationist.

Which is bizarre to me, considering the crisp rationality which Falvlun exhibits today. How could he (or she?) have reconciled YEC with rational thought?

I was homeschooled, so as far as evolution was concerned, I didn't encounter its real version until college. And then I was a pain-in-the-butt to my TAs, asking them (in hind sight) silly creationist-sorts of questions. I finally decided to accept it "academically", while still holding on to my religious beliefs of how creation "really" happened, but of course, that couldn't last long. I actually ended up accepting the evidence-- ie evolution-- shortly before my de-conversion from Christianity.

In hind sight, it is difficult to reconcile my image of myself as a analytical person with the person who so strongly believed. But both are very much me. "A grape of faith from heaven's vine makes for me a dangerous wine." It has taught me to be less certain and more cautious about believing so absolutely in something.

 

[Caladan]

OK so I have been having a lovely chat with the guys over on the atheism DIR regarding reasons they don't believe in God/follow any particular religion.

I don't believe you answered my reply in your previous thread, but I'll try my luck here.

Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them.

Actually in the real world we are expected to stand on our own feet. Our parents might be the ones who are supposed to initiate us in the beginning, but we are supposed to grow into responsible adults who are capable of making decisions. Now unless you are implying that the God of a very specific version (from Christian theological view point I suppose) is the one giving us instructions, then I don't see how you get to decide that this supposed parent exists and that they tell us what we should or shouldn't do. Following your theory, does it mean that all believers in a god behave and all those who disbelieve are prone to misbehave? Does any camp has an advantage in this regard?

Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose.

But you are willing to believe that a god would create us and at the same time judge us if we don't make one specific choice. It's not really an improvement from believing that god would create robots.
What about an option that a God created the cosmos, but doesn't intervene in the affairs of human beings nor does he particularly care if we believe in his existence?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

In hind sight, it is difficult to reconcile my image of myself as a analytical person with the person who so strongly believed. But both are very much me. "A grape of faith from heaven's vine makes for me a dangerous wine." It has taught me to be less certain and more cautious about believing so absolutely in something.

Interesting. My journey to an uncertain life happened a bit differently. It was a specific epiphany, shortly after I married. I decided that new data would always be sacred to me and that my Current Truth would have to conform itself. It relieved my anxiety. I had no responsibility to protect the truth. My only job was to watch it change however it pleased.

I've been ambiguous ever since.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

Take cancer...how long has research been going on with that, we know some things about it, but we don't know all. In some things we imply and infer but can't 100% prove until later knowledge comes along.

Sometimes the evidence/reasons comes years after the claim was first made.

But even without one hundred percent knowledge, you still have a base.. Something to work with.

Because we don't have full knowledge, just really good knowledge of cancer, doesn't mean that some off the cuff assertion is as valid as what we do have that is backed by evidence..
We don't have 100% proof is simply not a very good excuse, to throw away what we do have, in preference to something we simply want.

As for the burning bush-MJ argument, and how even if god choose to show himself we could write it of as something else..

Does that mean god is simply not smart enough to think of a way to reveal himself in a fool proof way, or just not powerful enough to pull it off?