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Reasons to not believe in God? Discuss....
- Thread starter Truth_Faith13
- Start date
It isn't even necessarily a matter of Jesus' teachings getting screwed up. Even if they were preserved perfectly, if God really, really wanted the Australian aborigines to know them, why would he choose a communication method where those teachings don't arrive in Australia until more than a millennium and a half later, and even then only in a form that's easy for people to not take seriously?Sure
You actually raise very valid points..and I honestly don't know the true answer.
Obviously for those who believe in Christ, He was here for 33years and teaching himself for 3 of those years. Then men screwed it up I guess!
Not quite: it's actually "we've not witnessed it, therefore we can't know if it's true." Like I said, it's hearsay. Sometimes hearsay describes real things, but hearsay by itself isn't enough to establish that a thing happened.
What do you mean when you say you can "sense God"? Even if you sense something that you assume to be God, I don't see how you can be sure that it actually is God.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Religions...not sure...I've been looking into Catholicism, but even that has teachings I'm unsure on although it does have more teachings than he rest that I believe in/agree with. I believe in God for sure, I don't know if a church/religion exists that reflect him truly and accurately.
Your last point, I suppose that's where faith comes in, the reasons I believe in God are very spiritual in nature so I'm not sure how they could be compared to other common effects...it's not something that can be proven. For example when a patient dies, I have a sense of something else...a soul which is still there...I don't know it's destination or exact workings of lost life processing, but I can feel it just as easy as a feel the wind/rain on my cheeks. I guess you could call it another sense. Now some people will put this down to my brain doing it which I accept, but like the whole God existing thing, I have tried to imagine nothing when I look at my patients looking as if they are peacefully sleeping and I can't. I just *know* something else is happening.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
One of my favourite quotes is "I know I'm going to hell but at least my friends will be there"...if it does exist, it will probably be where we all end up anyhow.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
OK so I have been having a lovely chat with the guys over on the atheism DIR regarding reasons they don't believe in God/follow any particular religion. A couple of the reasons mentioned make a valid point, but personally I don't find them reasons to not believe in God entirely. Being the atheism DIR, I didn't want to cause a debate so it was suggested I start a thread. It would actually be a great topic to explore the differing reasons people choose not to believe (or of course believe in the flip side) and the counter arguments which can be used for the opposing?
Here is the one from the other thread, but please feel free to add and discuss/debate your own...
Reason: the vast number of denominations/religions
Now on the surface, I can fully understand this perspective. I certainly have times where I feel "why bother", on the assumption there is a God of some sort or gods, it would be impossible to work out which is the "right" one to follow. I know some people believe that every religion leads to the same destination but I personally do not believe this.
That said I don't believe this is reason to not believe in God (however you view him or her) entirely and here's why....
Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?
So why doesn't God make it more clear to us? But would we listen? Has anybody been utterly in "love" at a young age...parents have said its a bad idea (the truth) but we didn't listen? Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, I know many of us including me would have to change our lives in someway. Even if God was to make it abundantly clear...would we follow? Or would we choose to disobey? Has anybody heard when Michael Jackson went to his own look alike competition and LOST...MJ himself was there and no one thought it was him? What would God have to do for us to accept him? A burning bush would be out down to an hallucination these days...
The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.
Thoughts? Ideas?
I don't believe or not believe in god. But I don't have the fortitude to manage both what I can see and hear, and what may or may not be. Doing the best I can here and now is all I have to give.
If god NEEDs more from me, I'm glad to help the guy out. All he needs to do is let me know he's there and what he needs.
If the guy is to lazy to so much as show his face, and expects me to correctly decide which of 5 billion messengers actually has his real message, then he expects way more from me than he gives of himself.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Good question, I've never really thought about that before? I guess because from a Christian perspective, a non repenting pedophile would end up in hell, suffering for all eternity.
If the person ends up in heaven, we are told there will be no pain, no tears, etc it will be a place of happiness. I don't know the details or if mental illnesses will be completely wiped, but if it exists people who go there will be very happy.
From that perspective it's quite comforting, all those who do harm and are not sorry, will suffer for all eternity (that's better than any prison sentence) and those who have suffered in this life put have led a good life will be at peace and happy in the next.
Maybe He is your invisible friend
But seriously...
OK so I have been having a lovely chat with the guys over on the atheism DIR regarding reasons they don't believe in God/follow any particular religion. A couple of the reasons mentioned make a valid point, but personally I don't find them reasons to not believe in God entirely. Being the atheism DIR, I didn't want to cause a debate so it was suggested I start a thread. It would actually be a great topic to explore the differing reasons people choose not to believe (or of course believe in the flip side) and the counter arguments which can be used for the opposing?
Here is the one from the other thread, but please feel free to add and discuss/debate your own...
Reason: the vast number of denominations/religions
Now on the surface, I can fully understand this perspective. I certainly have times where I feel "why bother", on the assumption there is a God of some sort or gods, it would be impossible to work out which is the "right" one to follow. I know some people believe that every religion leads to the same destination but I personally do not believe this.
That said I don't believe this is reason to not believe in God (however you view him or her) entirely and here's why....
Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?
So why doesn't God make it more clear to us? But would we listen? Has anybody been utterly in "love" at a young age...parents have said its a bad idea (the truth) but we didn't listen? Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, I know many of us including me would have to change our lives in someway. Even if God was to make it abundantly clear...would we follow? Or would we choose to disobey? Has anybody heard when Michael Jackson went to his own look alike competition and LOST...MJ himself was there and no one thought it was him? What would God have to do for us to accept him? A burning bush would be out down to an hallucination these days...
The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.
Thoughts? Ideas?
My thoughts on God are that it exists in our minds as our way of coping with the various unexplainable positions on our place in the Kosmos. We extend our egos upward, outward, and inward for the purpose of making some sense in a chaotic and expansive existence. The Who, What, When, Where questions can be answered through empirical and observational study.
But the "Why" question is answered through our own narratives, whether the story is paralleled with other narratives or narrowed down to a single dogmatic storyline.
In that, I don't see an objective God that exists. I see a tapestry of perspectives that make up a fascinating mixed view of the Kosmos. One that essentially is meaningless and full of meaning at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, a God that oversees everything is just SO limited in comparison with the infinite possibilities that exist.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There are no comparisons that can be made of a child/parent relationship concerning God. Firstly a child has real contact with thier parents involving physical and audible interaction giving way for direct communication.
What theists typically have is an invisible friend type relationship void of any real external contact and communication.
The MJ event was a good try but in order to know that MJ lost, was still confirmed by the actual presence and interaction of MJ himself. In order to convince people that God exists would require direct communication and interaction.
Things like burning bushes and such should and aught to be explained away, because thats the whole point. Isn't it?
Thats the process of debunking and elimination leading to real facts and truths of the matter. To explain that a God is hiding away hesitant to interact for no other reason than, "Why bother. They won't believe my signs and wonders because they will explain away my signs, so I'll just stay innocuous, silent, and vague". Can subsequently raise some valid red flags concerning any authentic and genuine McCoy.
There are so many denominations precisely for reasons borne of man. I agree with that wholeheartedly and demonstrates well the source here. An observation we both share here.
In some religions that would be perfectly fine, but in others like Christianity, a slew of varying denominations demonstrates there is a notable lack of communication and interaction with a said omnipresent and universal God, leaving only confusion and guesswork of which if privy to such a presence, would have certainly reflected a universal consensus resulting in one single church that dosent rely on itself alone.
What theists typically have is an invisible friend type relationship void of any real external contact and communication.
The MJ event was a good try but in order to know that MJ lost, was still confirmed by the actual presence and interaction of MJ himself. In order to convince people that God exists would require direct communication and interaction.
Things like burning bushes and such should and aught to be explained away, because thats the whole point. Isn't it?
Thats the process of debunking and elimination leading to real facts and truths of the matter. To explain that a God is hiding away hesitant to interact for no other reason than, "Why bother. They won't believe my signs and wonders because they will explain away my signs, so I'll just stay innocuous, silent, and vague". Can subsequently raise some valid red flags concerning any authentic and genuine McCoy.
There are so many denominations precisely for reasons borne of man. I agree with that wholeheartedly and demonstrates well the source here. An observation we both share here.
In some religions that would be perfectly fine, but in others like Christianity, a slew of varying denominations demonstrates there is a notable lack of communication and interaction with a said omnipresent and universal God, leaving only confusion and guesswork of which if privy to such a presence, would have certainly reflected a universal consensus resulting in one single church that dosent rely on itself alone.
While I don't think that the wide variety of religions and God-concepts is evidence that God does not exist, I do think that it's evidence that a personal God that desires a relationship with humans doesn't exist.
Or, barring that, a personal God who wants to have a healthy relationship with humans.
Or, barring that, a personal God who wants to have a healthy relationship with humans.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
As a young man, I reasoned: If there is a God, He must be accessible to every human who has ever lived or ever will live. Any God who appears to a special group or in a limited timespan or a foreign language... that isn't God.
I had already discarded the Bible, but that realization made me discard all scriptures and all prophets. I would be my own prophet. It would just be me and God, as I still believe it should be for each one of us.
This part grabbed my attention. Why shouldn't things of a spiritual nature be bound to the same sort of proof, evidence, common sense, etc criteria that we place on everything else in our life?
What does "spiritual in nature" even mean? Does it simply mean "things I want to believe but have no evidence for, but I feel make me a better person and give me a more fulfilling life"? How do you know whether something is "spiritual", and therefore, not subject to normal criteria for ascertaining whether something is true or reasonable to believe?
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
With regards to the MJ event....he had direct communication and interaction with them and he lost? So why would God be any different, why if he gave us direct communication and interaction, would we not say "sorry think you are a look a like and a bad one at that".
I think you misunderstood my point about us failing to listen/read signs etc. I didn't mean God doesn't show up because of that, but he may very well have shown up/be here and we still wouldn't notice him. There is a passage non the bible about being careful who you turn away as you may very well be entertaining angels. He has come to us as man before, He could quite easily be the homeless person in the street, the abused child, the person with mental illness or the old woman asking for help. He could very easily be here, watching us.
As a general question to everyone who has posted and thank you for your responses, it's interesting to see you perspectives...what would it take for you to believe in God (regardless of what a particular denomination attributes to him), what would he have to do?
That's what led me down the rabbit hole too. I was a fundamental, YEC, Bible-thumping Christian.
But then I started thinking: Everybody doesn't have the same chance at accepting Christianity, based upon differences in culture and how they are raised. If Christianity is true, then it must be fair-- everyone must get an equal chance at salvation. Since this is manifestly not so, therefore, Christianity cannot be true.
And so my foundation crumbled.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Not to answer a question with a question but why should they? Why as humans do we feel everything should have an answer/a rational explanation? On the assumption that God exists, he is infinitely more powerful than humans and beyond our imagination so if he does exist, why do we expect to be able to rationalise every part of him in our limited understanding. We don't even understand everything about us yet or our planet, how are we supposed to understand the whole universe and God?
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
If any creature stood before me and declared, "I am God," I would accept him and address him as God. If he claimed to be Jimbo, I'd address him as Jimbo.
It's only polite.
Unless you can define what you mean by 'God', it's just a word, just a name.
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
YEC?
I must admit, that's the closest argument been made which has made some sense to me and I can understand it.
The one thing I would say, is, could this not be down to humans again? If every human had accepted Christ and not rejected Him (remember people rejected him to his face!) if every human had read the Bible and translated it error free, over 2000years, surely the whole planet would have heard the gospel? In fact, I don't know of many people who wouldn't have heard of it, even with history as it is and how it happened, they just choose not to believe because of their culture (man made) or parents (man made). There may be some distant tribes who haven't heard but since apparently all tribes have now been identified, assuming God is real, surely it would have been the Christians duty to take them the gospel? If people haven't due to lack of faith, surely that's down to humans, not God?
It's not that you're supposed to know everything; it's that you're supposed to be able to back up what you think you know with reasons and evidence.
There's plenty of stuff that we don't know anything about, but here's the thing: we don't know anything about that stuff. When people start making claims about things they know nothing about, we can dismiss what they say as made up.
There is a difference between accepting that we do not and cannot understand everything, and the conclusion that, therefore, we shouldn't use reason at all.
We don't completely understand many of the natural mechanisms of our world, but that doesn't mean we can say "We don't know everything about gravity, therefore, evidence and reason is not applicable to this inquiry."
I don't expect humans to be able to rationalize and understand every part of God. But the parts they claim to know-- such as his existence, his motivations, his actions-- they better be able to provide evidence and reasons for this. They are claiming understanding in these areas, and thus, these claims are subject to all the normal avenues of deciding whether something is worth accepting or not.
Simply slapping a label of "spiritual" on it-- which itself is undefined-- is not some magical get-out-reason-free card.
