Reasons to not believe in God? Discuss....

[Truth_Faith13]

In response to the OP, I don't "choose" to believe anything, ever. I am persuaded by the evidence. No evidence + no chance of anyone, ever persuading me of anything without a great deal of evidence = no belief in invisible, ineffable creatures of any kind. Pretty simple equation.

No amount of sophistry anyone could possibly come up with will ever persuade me of a single thing. My mind absorbs only evidence, not opinions, and with that evidence draws its own conclusions.

If you believe in a creator god, then this is the mind she gave me, and many others as well. Best make peace with that.

I'm not at war with it in the first place

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Woohoo!



This makes the assumption that people should automatically accept the Gospel when they hear it. Is this a reasonable assumption? It also assumes that merely hearing the Gospel gives a person a good enough chance of accepting salvation.

Imagine that it turns out that Islam was the correct religion. You have heard of Islam, right? You have heard some of their basic tenets. Do you think that you had just as much a chance as someone growing up in Saudi Arabia to have come to the conclusion that Islam was the correct religion? Do you think that if a Muslim person talked with you about becoming a Muslim, you would easily be able to convert? Would you feel that, simply because you know about Islam, that you have been given a sufficiently fair chance at accepting it?

I suspect not. So why do you expect someone who belongs to a "distant tribe" to accept Christianity, simply because a missionary might have told them the Gospel?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that this is "down to humans, not God". Well, yes: it is about humans, and that's the point. It's pretty much human nature to accept the beliefs in which we are raised, and which permeate our culture. Those are the beliefs that we are generally going to find most comfortable or credible.

God knows that. So why would he come up with a plan of salvation that required people to accept it, when he knew that people wouldn't have an equal opportunity of accepting it?

Or, to include your objection: Why would God create a plan of salvation that depended upon other humans to ensure the salvation of other humans? I mean, it's not really fair that Ahmad didn't get the same chance at salvation as Christopher simply because Ahmad's parents were Muslim, and Christopher's were Christian.

Hehe yes I have heard of Islam. I've spoken to a Muslim about Islam....could never convert because if the contradictions I see. However I know enough about the religion to convert if there wasn't the contradictions! I've been given a fair chance. If Islam is right, I'm screwed. I'd have to a hope for a forgiving God.

Do you think we would listen anymore, be more Christian if he had sent aliens? by the way, this thread seems to have been condensed to Christianity. I suppose because I'm Christian. I was hoping, it would stay more general to include all religions.

 

[Nakosis]

So an "atheist" who doesn't claim there is no God has no burden of proof.

So if a person says God exists and an Atheist doesn't claim otherwise, what's the problem?

You should go forth on your merry way happy in your belief of God without worry of opposition.

Though I suppose arguments that include God's law or God's will would have no persuasive power for an Atheist. Therefore your argument would need to be made without adding God into the mix.

 

[Falvlun]

Hehe yes I have heard of Islam. I've spoken to a Muslim about Islam....could never convert because if the contradictions I see. However I know enough about the religion to convert if there wasn't the contradictions! I've been given a fair chance. If Islam is right, I'm screwed. I'd have to a hope for a forgiving God.

Do you think you've had as much a chance as someone born into an Islamic family and culture?

I think the obvious answer is "No, you have not".

That being the case, don't you think that everyone should get an equal shot at something as important as salvation of their eternal soul?

Do you think it is fair that you received a better chance at getting saved than someone born in the Middle East?

Do you think we would listen anymore, be more Christian if he had sent aliens?

Um... I don't know?

Personally, I think that the best way God could have given everyone an equal chance at salvation is if he visited with each and every person and sat with them and talked with them, and came over for dinner on Sundays. That way people could get to know God directly from the source, there would be no question about misinterpretation or human fallibility in delivering the message, and it could be catered to each individual language and culture so that the message could make sense to each person, regardless where they happened to be born.

by the way, this thread seems to have been condensed to Christianity. I suppose because I'm Christian. I was hoping, it would stay more general to include all religions.

Yeah, that tends to happen a lot. I think the majority of people here know more about Christianity than any other religion, and thus, that's the primary subject and/or target.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

So an "atheist" who doesn't claim there is no God has no burden of proof.

So if a person says God exists and an Atheist doesn't claim otherwise, what's the problem?

You should go forth on your merry way happy in your belief of God without worry of opposition.

Though I suppose arguments that include God's law or God's will would have no persuasive power for an Atheist. Therefore your argument would need to be made without adding God into the mix.

I think you may have misinterpreted?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Do you think you've had as much a chance as someone born into an Islamic family and culture?

I think the obvious answer is "No, you have not".

That being the case, don't you think that everyone should get an equal shot at something as important as salvation of their eternal soul?

Do you think it is fair that you received a better chance at getting saved than someone born in the Middle East?


Um... I don't know?

Personally, I think that the best way God could have given everyone an equal chance at salvation is if he visited with each and every person and sat with them and talked with them, and came over for dinner on Sundays. That way people could get to know God directly from the source, there would be no question about misinterpretation or human fallibility in delivering the message, and it could be catered to each individual language and culture so that the message could make sense to each person, regardless where they happened to be born.


Yeah, that tends to happen a lot. I think the majority of people here know more about Christianity than any other religion, and thus, that's the primary subject and/or target.

But He did do that...his name was Jesus. OK he didn't talk to everyone, but those he did crucified him! Do you think people would react differently now?

Edit and your right. I think I read somewhere the only 10% change their religion from what they were raised.

 

[Nakosis]

I think you may have misinterpreted?

Misinterpreted how?

This is as far as I understand the burden of proof to work. Whoever is making the claim has the burden of proof.

Thinking of my of feelings, I would say I don't believe in the Christian God.
However the actual reasoning isn't that I'm saying the Christian God does not exist. The truth is that the morality of the Christian God as presented by Christians is not acceptable to me.

In this case it doesn't matter whether the Christian God exists or not, I would not worship him. The morality of parts of the Bible and the morality of Christian theology are not acceptable to me.

That's really what I mean when I say I don't believe in the Christian God.

 

[Alceste]

I'm not at war with it in the first place

Who said anything about war? If you're trying to figure out why we don't believe in your religion, you are asking the wrong question. The right question is, should we? Why would we? How could we? In the absence of any evidence that you've lucked into the only "true" religion among thousands of imposters - and in the presence of much evidence to the contrary - your religion appears to us in the exact same light as all the others. Man-made, imperfect and false. That you're asking for detailed reasons and arguing against the fact that we don't single your religion out for special evidentiary exemptions, as you do, shows me this must bother you at least a little. That's what I mean by "make peace" with it. It shouldn't bother you at all that others find your religion to be exactly as false as all the others. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Who said anything about war? If you're trying to figure out why we don't believe in your religion, you are asking the wrong question. The right question is, should we? Why would we? How could we? In the absence of any evidence that you've lucked into the only "true" religion among thousands of imposters - and in the presence of much evidence to the contrary - your religion appears to us in the exact same light as all the others. Man-made, imperfect and false. That you're asking for detailed reasons and arguing against the fact that we don't single your religion out for special evidentiary exemptions, as you do, shows me this must bother you at least a little. That's what I mean by "make peace" with it. It shouldn't bother you at all that others find your religion to be exactly as false as all the others. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Well to make peace with something, you have to be at war with it?

I couldn't give a monkeys uncle if you believe or not, have you actually read the OP? I was interested to hear why people don't believe in God, gods or whatever religion there is out there. I wasn't asking for detailed reasons. "Because there isn't enough evidence" is fine. One of the posters wanted me to explain why I didn't agree with a point made in a thread on the atheism DIR, hence this thread as I didn't want to explain my perspective on that forum. If you'll read the OP, the actual question initially was about there being many different denominations...nothing about reasons, detailed or not. What this thread was supposed to be was a discussion of the reasons from a believers and non believers perspective. Whatever those reasons may be.

The fact that you think this thread is about MY religion is also evidence that you have not read the OP or the original thread in the atheism DIR.

One poster mentioned he didn't need a reason to not believe and I was attempting to explain that everyone has a reason even if that reason is "because there is no reason to"....some have turned it into burden of proof and other arguments...it's sort of turned into a multi conversational thread.

In short, I couldn't give a rats **** if you are atheist, pagan, believe in unicorns, fairies or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. What does bother me, is seemingly uneducated posters who dive into a thread with no apparent pre-reading in an angry, argumentative tone when there is no need. That sweets, very much bothers me.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Reason is the reason I don't believe in the existence of god(s).

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Reason is the reason I don't believe in the existence of god(s).

I'm assuming you mean logic & reason? Or lack there of in this case?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm assuming you mean logic & reason? Or lack there of in this case?

I'll leave you to reason it out.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I'll leave you to reason it out.

Well thank you for letting me know your reason

 

[Falvlun]

Sorry for participating in the derailing of your thread! :sorry1:

The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.

Thoughts? Ideas?

This is from your OP.

I agree that simply because there are a lot of religions doesn't mean that God can't exist.

But it does seem to eliminate certain God possibilities, such as an exclusive and fair God (like our conversation), or a God who desires a personal relationship with humans.

It also would be consistent with the hypothesis that humans have created all these religions, and that none are accurate.

Were there any other reasons for disbelief that you were interested in, or have heard often, and would like clarification on?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Sorry for participating in the derailing of your thread! :sorry1:



This is from your OP.

I agree that simply because there are a lot of religions doesn't mean that God can't exist.

But it does seem to eliminate certain God possibilities, such as an exclusive and fair God (like our conversation), or a God who desires a personal relationship with humans.

It also would be consistent with the hypothesis that humans have created all these religions, and that none are accurate.

Were there any other reasons for disbelief that you were interested in, or have heard often, and would like clarification on?

Oh I don't mind the thread being derailed......I just mind when people come in, don't read the thread, make assumptions and then post things which to me at least, come across as argumentative and aggressive.

Her biggest mistake was assuming I am here to make everyone believe in "my" religion which is completely inaccurate. I am genuinely interested in why people say "I am atheist", "I don't believe in God".... there may be one which does make me change my mind...I'm yet to hear one (yours was the closest)...but that's why I like people to explain why they don't...because for me to not believe, I will have to have a logical, well thought out reason.

It's more a "let's see who can turn TF atheist" challenge

I'm tired and still a bit hacked off at that other post, so I can't think of any other reasons to discuss at the moment. Besides It's difficult when a lot on here have said "I don't need to give a reason"

I was hoping someone may have done an in depth theological research journey and could tell me all the contradictions in the bible, all the mistakes, theologically, historically etc. But alas most answers have been "no reason too"

How about yourself, any other thoughts? You seem to have good ones!

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It's more a "let's see who can turn TF atheist" challenge

If that's really the challenge, I'll make a go at it, but first we'd have to agree on the definition of 'God.'

If you mean 'That Guy in the Bible,' then I'll be happy to explain the reasons I don't believe in that God.

If you have some other preferred definition of God, I might or might not have reasons to disbelieve in God. I'd have to hear the definition.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

If that's really the challenge, I'll make a go at it, but first we'd have to agree on the definition of 'God.'

If you mean 'That Guy in the Bible,' then I'll be happy to explain the reasons I don't believe in that God.

If you have some other preferred definition of God, I might or might not have reasons to disbelieve in God. I'd have to hear the definition.

This is where it gets tricky, because I don't "belong" to any particular religion/denomination but yeah I guess you could say it's the guy in the Bible.

That person exists in three...father, son, HS, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent etc etc

That said I'm not convinced the bible is entirely accurate.

 

[Alceste]

Oh I don't mind the thread being derailed......I just mind when people come in, don't read the thread, make assumptions and then post things which to me at least, come across as argumentative and aggressive.

Her biggest mistake was assuming I am here to make everyone believe in "my" religion which is completely inaccurate. I am genuinely interested in why people say "I am atheist", "I don't believe in God".... there may be one which does make me change my mind...I'm yet to hear one (yours was the closest)...but that's why I like people to explain why they don't...because for me to not believe, I will have to have a logical, well thought out reason.

It's more a "let's see who can turn TF atheist" challenge

I'm tired and still a bit hacked off at that other post, so I can't think of any other reasons to discuss at the moment. Besides It's difficult when a lot on here have said "I don't need to give a reason"

I was hoping someone may have done an in depth theological research journey and could tell me all the contradictions in the bible, all the mistakes, theologically, historically etc. But alas most answers have been "no reason too"

How about yourself, any other thoughts? You seem to have good ones!

I have read the Bible and discovered hundreds of contradictions. I'll give you one right now. God makes "thou shalt not kill" one of his to ten rules to live by, then immediately spends a few decades instructing the Jews to slaughter every man, woman, child and farm animal they encounter (except for the little virgin girls, who are kept alive for raping). He also does quite a lot of murdering himself, swallowing whole gangs of people into cracks in the earth for the most stupid, arbitrary reasons.

I'm not hostile to you, personally, I just get irritated by reading terrible books, as anyone who has heard my opinion if Ayn Rand will be happy to tell you.

 

[McBell]

Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship.

Actually, no it is not.
The key difference being that the parent is actually there...

Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?

So what are you suggesting?
that we just pick one and hope for the best?

I disregard religions because they have not been shown to be anything more than the wishful thinking of the religions follows.

So why doesn't God make it more clear to us?

Good question.
I wonder how long we will have to wait for real honest to god (pardon the pun) answer?

But would we listen?

Sure we would.
I mean, if god is truley all knowing, he would know exactly what would make us listen.

Has anybody been utterly in "love" at a young age...parents have said its a bad idea (the truth) but we didn't listen?

I fail to see the relevance.

Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, I know many of us including me would have to change our lives in someway.

How do we verify said "truth"?
Seems to me that there are literally millions upon millions of differing descriptions/definitions of god.
And not a single one of them can be shown to be something mor ethan the describer/definers wishful thinking.

Why is that?

Even if God was to make it abundantly clear...would we follow? Or would we choose to disobey?

Some would.
some would not.
Some would deny simply for the sake of denying just as some accept now simply for the sake of accepting.

Has anybody heard when Michael Jackson went to his own look alike competition and LOST...MJ himself was there and no one thought it was him?

I fail to understand the relevance.

What would God have to do for us to accept him? A burning bush would be out down to an hallucination these days...

You mean your all knowing god does not know?
How does that work?

The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.

If god exists, he has gone to great lengths to remain hidden.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

This is where it gets tricky, because I don't "belong" to any particular religion/denomination but yeah I guess you could say it's the guy in the Bible.

I don't believe in Him for lots of reasons. First, no true God would send His message to us like that -- in an ancient dead language, from a foreign culture, with so many guys able to change His words as they pleased in the editing.

Second, in my lifetime I've heard lots of people claim miracles. But in every instance, I've noticed that they are not people like me. Not reasonable, skeptical people. And they never have any actual evidence of these miracles. So I conclude that there are probably no miracles, and I certainly have no reason to believe such claims from ancient folk... the same folk who considered thunder and lightning to be unexplainable.

Lots of other ways I could explain my disbelief, but this is a start.