"Reformed" Islam

[Estro Felino]

I want to start this thread by quoting a current sentence said by Wafa Sultan:
"I personally don't think that Islam can be reformed. Unless we recreate a totally new belief system and keep the name. But whoever claims they can, has the right to try to do it"

well...I can't judge a sentence like this because I am not a Muslim, but I surely can understand what she means.
She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

In other words: a Christianized Islam. Without rejecting the centrality of Islam theological precepts, stated by the last prophet.

 

[Estro Felino]

In 25 years the Islamic world will be unavoidably split in two:
----the moderate Muslims living in European countries and in America, who have a reformed and secular vision of Islam

---the Asian and African Muslims who have the traditional vision of Islam.

 

[icehorse]

Any feedback from the faithful...?

The first problem I see is that all the Muslims I've conversed with stick with the party line that Islam is perfect. This is in the face of mountains of evidence.

And Islam congeals and disperses when necessary. So when someone says something "offensive", it's said to be "offending 1.6 billion Muslims". But when a particular group of Muslims misbehave, they are said to "not be true Muslims". Tricky business.

As for a "Christianized Islam". That seems like a non-starter. How about an Islam compatible with modern secularism? Would that be any more palatable?

 

[Sees]

I think moderate/progressive Muslims shouldn't/needn't have a secular vision of Islam but one more of spiritual, proactive goodness rather than dogmatic restriction and condemnation of traditional interpretations.

At what point it loses the identity is hard to tell. So much of what both non-Muslims and moderate/progressive Muslims dislike is rather core to Islam.

 

[Estro Felino]

As for a "Christianized Islam". That seems like a non-starter.

By Christianized Islam I don't mean a Islam accepting Christian dogmas.
I just mean an Islam that repudiates the concept of holy war (even when it was started, in the 7th century), and only embraces Christian-like values such as cosmopolitanism, brotherhood, tolerance.

I ask myself: Is the concept of holy war indispensable?

 

[Sabour]

I want to start this thread by quoting a current sentence said by Wafa Sultan:
"I personally don't think that Islam can be reformed. Unless we recreate a totally new belief system and keep the name. But whoever claims they can, has the right to try to do it"

well...I can't judge a sentence like this because I am not a Muslim, but I surely can understand what she means.
She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

In other words: a Christianized Islam. Without rejecting the centrality of Islam theological precepts, stated by the last prophet.

That is not possible in the sense of replacing and removing verses. Quraan is is the word of God. So we can't/not qualified/not allowed (you name it) to change verses because God is perfect, his Word is perfect. Any change no matter how small it was will make it not perfect and there will be flaws.

However the general idea which I think you are hinting at can be done through increasing the understandings of the Quraan and what Islam is among people. For example, you mentioned the verses which justify violence, now let me ask you, do you believe that people have the right to defend themselves? Now is self defense violence?

You have also mentioned holy war. That is also a misconception about Islam, there is nothing called the holy war. How ever there is Jihad and mainly Jihad is on terrorism. For example, you believe that ISIS is a terrorist group so you fight it. By doing so, you are making Jihad.

Other forms of Jihad is the Jihad against the self. Jihad means struggling and with Jihad on the self you are fighting your evil desires and trying to stay on the right track, and that is the greatest form of Jihad.

 

[icehorse]

Hey One-answer,

Your discussion of Jihad is a really good one to pursue. Of course I wish that all Muslims agreed with your definition of Jihad. But the reality is that many Muslims disagree with you. So how would you suggest changing the situation so that over time all Muslims came to believe what you believe about Jihad? This would be an example of reform.

 

[JiSe]

I think "Reformation" is normal way of things to develop when the Religion loses enough power to punish people who don't follow its every rule, or start to ignore the stuff that disturbs modern living too much.
In some sense Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was time when Islam existed in this state.

Current militant Islam could be said to be an idea to combat outside influences, and bring hope and sense of unity for the people. First against Crusades, and later against colonial rule, and in last decades against oppressing tyrants/dictators. Reformation in current environment seems unlikely.

 

[Sabour]

Hey One-answer,

Your discussion of Jihad is a really good one to pursue. Of course I wish that all Muslims agreed with your definition of Jihad. But the reality is that many Muslims disagree with you. So how would you suggest changing the situation so that over time all Muslims came to believe what you believe about Jihad? This would be an example of reform.

I think I have already covered that in my answer, didn't I?

However the general idea which I think you are hinting at can be done through increasing the understandings of the Quraan and what Islam is among people.

So it is people who need a reform to dig more deep into Islam and enhance there ability to understand what Islam really teaches. It is also our job as muslims to teach and help one another to understand the importance of that.

The problem is not in Islam, the problem is in the approach towards understanding this. So yeah I would say the reform should be in the approach to Islam, not an Islam reform.

 

[icehorse]

I think I have already covered that in my answer, didn't I?



So it is people who need a reform to dig more deep into Islam and enhance there ability to understand what Islam really teaches. It is also our job as muslims to teach and help one another to understand the importance of that.

The problem is not in Islam, the problem is in the approach towards understanding this. So yeah I would say the reform should be in the approach to Islam, not an Islam reform.

Cool. So what would one concrete, small step be?

 

[seeking4truth]

By Christianized Islam I don't mean a Islam accepting Christian dogmas.
I just mean an Islam that repudiates the concept of holy war (even when it was started, in the 7th century), and only embraces Christian-like values such as cosmopolitanism, brotherhood, tolerance.

I ask myself: Is the concept of holy war indispensable?

I think what you are speaking about has happened.

The Mahdi/ Messiah prophesied to come in the 14 century after the Holy Prophet was to revive the true understanding of Islam just as Jesus came to the Children of Israel. In fact most Muslims actually believe that the same Jesus Christ in the same body has been kept waiting in some place to return to do this. (An unfortunate later absorption of some Christian ideas) .

Ahmadis believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, of Qadian, India, was that prophesied Messiah and acted exactly as Jesus did ie. fulfilled the role of reformer, messiah, acting in the same spirit as Jesus had done.
The Ahmadi interpretation of Islam may be compared and contrasted to the practice of the Holy Prophet and the practice of the majority of Muslims today.
The teachings and practice of Ahmadi Muslims are nothing but Islam purified of all the accumulated misunderstandings of 14 centuries and practiced as the Holy Prophet practiced it.
You may like to call this Christianized Islam.

IslamAhmadiyya - Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - Al Islam Online - Official Website
Muslim television Ahmadiyya International | Watch MTA Live Streaming

 

[Sabour]

Cool. So what would one concrete, small step be?

A concrete small step would be if true muslims stand up and take the responsibility they have towards their brothers and sisters and taught them the true Islam starting from the basics.

 

[Estro Felino]

That is not possible in the sense of replacing and removing verses. Quraan is is the word of God. So we can't/not qualified/not allowed (you name it) to change verses because God is perfect, his Word is perfect. Any change no matter how small it was will make it not perfect and there will be flaws.

I didn't say that passages need to be changed. I said they need to be either removed or ignored.
and yes, there are passages of the Qur'an which explicitly talk about violence in the context of war. Which are a serious contradiction to the rest of the Qur'an promoting love, brotherhood and universalism.

However the general idea which I think you are hinting at can be done through increasing the understandings of the Quraan and what Islam is among people. For example, you mentioned the verses which justify violence, now let me ask you, do you believe that people have the right to defend themselves? Now is self defense violence?

It is violence, of course, even if justifiable out of necessity and desperation.
However....in European countries, all Christians love Muslims...so there is no need of self-defense because nobody attacks them.

You have also mentioned holy war. That is also a misconception about Islam, there is nothing called the holy war. How ever there is Jihad and mainly Jihad is on terrorism. For example, you believe that ISIS is a terrorist group so you fight it. By doing so, you are making Jihad.

I don't care about ISIS. I live in Europe.
Again: in Europe nobody would dare accuse Muslims of terrorism.
so there is no danger. and no need of self-defense.

so the concept of self-defense is absolutely useless

 

[Sees]

What about if they allowed and actually embraced Muslims having personal, individual interpretations of Islam without any compulsion towards specific doctrine and dogma, or religion in general, while simultaneously celebrating their similarities and united goals/focus of worship?

Such simple, beneficial concepts for peace and growth dealing with religion are already wide-spread and proven.

A concrete small step would be if true muslims stand up and take the responsibility they have towards their brothers and sisters and taught them the true Islam starting from the basics.

 

[Sabour]

I didn't say that passages need to be changed. I said they need to be either removed or ignored.
and yes, there are passages of the Qur'an which explicitly talk about violence in the context of war. Which are a serious contradiction to the rest of the Qur'an promoting love, brotherhood and universalism.

Islam is a system of life which tells you how you are supposed to live your life. So it provides answers or a pattern of thinking/response to every single situation you would face. If verses were removed, it will cease to be perfect and it would open people to retaliate the way they want and not the way God wants them too. Believe me results will be disastrous. Since Islam is a complete way of life it is normal to find verses where it tells you how to react when you are facing a war because regardless of whether we like that or not, it is part of life.

Let me give you an example from the Quraan about the famous scary verse which says kill them wherever you find them.

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


If you look at the conditions to fight those than you will find, that first they are the ones who started the fight. Second they transgressed,. Third they are the ones who expelled you out of your home. Fourth, regardless of all that, if they stopped, you have to stop too. Now let me ask you, if you removed these verses and one was faced with such a situation, do you honestly think if the enemies stopped, they will stop to? I am sure that majority will not, that if it is not all.

It is violence, of course, even if justifiable out of necessity and desperation.
However....in European countries, all Christians love Muslims...so there is no need of self-defense because nobody attacks them.

Even if that is the case, Islam is a universal language and Quraan is the Word of God. So a muslim has the same view towards the QUraan whether they are in Japan, Lebanon, Italy,America, China or Palestine.

I don't care about ISIS. I live in Europe.
Again: in Europe nobody would dare accuse Muslims of terrorism.
so there is no danger. and no need of self-defense.

so the concept of self-defense is absolutely useless

That is good to hear. Maybe it is useless there, but it is not useless for muslims in Burma.

Even it is not useless for the ones living in Europe to know about because through these verses they can know where ISIS is getting it wrong and they will be more aware of the true face of ISIS.

 

[Woodrow LI]

I want to start this thread by quoting a current sentence said by Wafa Sultan:
"I personally don't think that Islam can be reformed. Unless we recreate a totally new belief system and keep the name. But whoever claims they can, has the right to try to do it"

well...I can't judge a sentence like this because I am not a Muslim, but I surely can understand what she means.
She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

In other words: a Christianized Islam. Without rejecting the centrality of Islam theological precepts, stated by the last prophet.

Islam can not be explained in terms of Christianity. It is not a religion in the same concept. Islam is not a Theocratic doctrine it is a Theocratic action. Islam is a verb and means "The act of Submitting to Allaah(swt)" a person who performs Islam is a Muslim (male) Muslimah(Female)

As a Muslim I can not even envision Islam as a set of rules, doctrines or commands. It is a personal commitment between myself and Allaah(swt) Neither I nor any other Muslim can "Prove" he is a Muslim. We do not join an organization, we do not submit to the leadership of any clergy, we do not have any sacraments or ritual that makes us a Muslim. Our only evidence of being Muslim is our saying we are Muslim.

To be a Muslim is to strive to obey Allaah(swt) in every word, thought and deed. Our life is our religion. In Arabic there is one word for life and religion. De'en. They are inseparable all we do is a prayer and our De'en reflects our love of Allaah(swt) or shows we are ignoring Allaah(swt)

The concept of "reforming Islam" is basically not understandable. How does one reform an action. Islam is not a club, Social Organization or a Centralized ideology. It is simply the act of submitting to Allaah(swt) to the best of our ability. It is not a spoon fed religion with required classes and studies. We each are responsible for our own beliefs and our own search to find how to serve Allaah(swt).

Each of us can only relate our own path and what we have found to be the way to perform Islam. For myself I find that to be to avoid that which the Qur'an forbids, to do my best to follow the Sunnah, to perform the 5 Pillars of faith to the best of my ability and to use the Hanafi Madhab as a guide to Shariah.

It is impossible to Reform Islam, we simply are not organized in a central manner to reform.

Some people that wear the name of Muslim could probably benefit from some reformation, but it is their own responsibility to find if they are truly doing the act of Islam.

A side point: Every Muslim I personally know, believes that if one can not live by the laws of a Nation, they have an obligation to leave that nation.

 

[Estro Felino]

A side point: Every Muslim I personally know, believes that if one can not live by the laws of a Nation, they have an obligation to leave that nation.

in fact lots of Muslims flee from their countries and move to Europe. They live in secular democratic pluralistic states.
and they respect the laws of those states.
but they don't stop being Muslims.

 

[Estro Felino]

Islam is a system of life which tells you how you are supposed to live your life. So it provides answers or a pattern of thinking/response to every single situation you would face. If verses were removed, it will cease to be perfect and it would open people to retaliate the way they want and not the way God wants them too. Believe me results will be disastrous. Since Islam is a complete way of life it is normal to find verses where it tells you how to react when you are facing a war because regardless of whether we like that or not, it is part of life.

Let me give you an example from the Quraan about the famous scary verse which says kill them wherever you find them.

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


If you look at the conditions to fight those than you will find, that first they are the ones who started the fight. Second they transgressed,. Third they are the ones who expelled you out of your home. Fourth, regardless of all that, if they stopped, you have to stop too. Now let me ask you, if you removed these verses and one was faced with such a situation, do you honestly think if the enemies stopped, they will stop to? I am sure that majority will not, that if it is not all.



Even if that is the case, Islam is a universal language and Quraan is the Word of God. So a muslim has the same view towards the QUraan whether they are in Japan, Lebanon, Italy,America, China or Palestine.



That is good to hear. Maybe it is useless there, but it is not useless for muslims in Burma.

Even it is not useless for the ones living in Europe to know about because through these verses they can know where ISIS is getting it wrong and they will be more aware of the true face of ISIS.

I agree with you, but reformation doesn't mean to change a religion. It means to regulate the relationships between state and mosque.
and given that lots of Muslims live in European countries which are secular, they will develop a very modern and open-minded vision of Islam. In which there is only the state law, and nothing else.

And this vision of Islam will be totally different than that of Muslims who live under the Islamic Sharia.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Woodrow,

I don't doubt that this is what Islam is for you. But in practice I don't buy it, and here's why:

- The OIC has 57 member nations.
- The OIC lobbies relentlessly in the UN to promote "Islamic values" such as the need to limit speech.
- When the Danish cartoonist incident occurred in 2006, Muslims from around the world rioted in the streets, burning embassies and killing Westerners.
- Polls show that across the globe and across many, many cultures, many Muslims support Sharia and want it to be the law of the land.
- When someone criticizes Islam publicly, they are often labeled as "Islamophobic" - by Muslims.
- We often hear that a certain opinion might "offend 1.6 billion Muslims".

The list goes on and on.

So you personally might not feel that you're a part of a collective, but many, if not most, Muslims do.

 

[Estro Felino]

Hi Woodrow,

I don't doubt that this is what Islam is for you. But in practice I don't buy it, and here's why:

- The OIC has 57 member nations.
- The OIC lobbies relentlessly in the UN to promote "Islamic values" such as the need to limit speech.
- When the Danish cartoonist incident occurred in 2006, Muslims from around the world rioted in the streets, burning embassies and killing Westerners.
- Polls show that across the globe and across many, many cultures, many Muslims support Sharia and want it to be the law of the land.
- When someone criticizes Islam publicly, they are often labeled as "Islamophobic" - by Muslims.
- We often hear that a certain opinion might "offend 1.6 billion Muslims".

The list goes on and on.

So you personally might not feel that you're a part of a collective, but many, if not most, Muslims do.

Exactly: that's what I wanted to say. A reformation implies the right for the great majority of Muslims, (the so called "Moderate Muslims" but I do call them the "True Muslims") to speak up and to freely say that these acts are an offense to Islam.
Because they were made on Islam's behalf.
We, who live in secular pluralistic and democratic country have the moral duty to help the true Muslims defend the good name of their religion, by calling evil by its name, and by saying that terrorists are false Muslims.
But we need to cooperate together to defend the good name of true Muslims

But reformation is also unavoidable because European Muslims will never agree with those Muslims who live under the Sharia Law.
because that Law is incompatible with European legal systems.
so this Reformation will deal with the separation between mosque and state: nothing more. It will never touch the holy precepts of Islam.