"Reformed" Islam

[Woodrow LI]

in fact lots of Muslims flee from their countries and move to Europe. They live in secular democratic pluralistic states.
and they respect the laws of those states.
but they don't stop being Muslims.

I have found that it is much easier to follow Islam in the USA than in Saudi, Iran, Somalia. Afghanistan, Iraq or Egypt

 

[Woodrow LI]

Hi Woodrow,

I don't doubt that this is what Islam is for you. But in practice I don't buy it, and here's why:

- The OIC has 57 member nations.
- The OIC lobbies relentlessly in the UN to promote "Islamic values" such as the need to limit speech.
- When the Danish cartoonist incident occurred in 2006, Muslims from around the world rioted in the streets, burning embassies and killing Westerners.
- Polls show that across the globe and across many, many cultures, many Muslims support Sharia and want it to be the law of the land.
- When someone criticizes Islam publicly, they are often labeled as "Islamophobic" - by Muslims.
- We often hear that a certain opinion might "offend 1.6 billion Muslims".

The list goes on and on.

So you personally might not feel that you're a part of a collective, but many, if not most, Muslims do.

Virtually all Muslims want Sharia law. But many if not most do not belive it is applicable for non-Muslims.

One thing that needs to be understood is what Shariah.is.

 

[Woodrow LI]

I agree with you, but reformation doesn't mean to change a religion. It means to regulate the relationships between state and mosque.
and given that lots of Muslims live in European countries which are secular, they will develop a very modern and open-minded vision of Islam. In which there is only the state law, and nothing else.

And this vision of Islam will be totally different than that of Muslims who live under the Islamic Sharia.

Western criminal law especially that of the USA is virtually identical with the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia. They biggest difference is US law has more things covered under criminal law. I do not know of any Muslims that see any need to change the US criminal laws. What is desired is recognition of the civil laws. Just as the Judaic Civil laws are recognized.for Jewish civil matters.

When speaking of Sharia, it must be kept in mind Sharia differs from Nation to nation, Some things that are called Sharia

Hanafi
Maliki
Hambali
Shafi'i
Jafa'ari
Ismaili
Salafi
Wahabbi

ISIS, Al-Qaeda, some parts of Pakistan, some Taliban and a few others call Wahabbi Sharia

Saudi and Qatar call Hambali Sharia

Iran and Iraq call Jafa'ari Sharia

Most far East Muslims call Shafi'i Sharia

Most Western Muslims call Hanafi Sharia

Egypt for a large part call Salafi Sharia.

 

[Kai'a]

I want to start this thread by quoting a current sentence said by Wafa Sultan:
"I personally don't think that Islam can be reformed. Unless we recreate a totally new belief system and keep the name. But whoever claims they can, has the right to try to do it"

Respectfully, that is fairly loaded opening for presumedly neutral topic, providing for biased reading (Islam as a whole being somehow 'bad') from the very start.

Secondly, 'Islam' - that's so broad statement. What part of Islam are we talking about? Which specific practices? Of what specific populations, and stemming from which era? Are we talking something wrong at the level of clergy, or the believers? Are we talking Islam as implemented to practices of islamic states, and if so, which states? With what questions and objections in mind? And so on.

That statement is broad, and supposing there's something like unified, codified, all-abiding and encompasing Islam, where there are differences and no such generalizations can be made.

well...I can't judge a sentence like this because I am not a Muslim, but I surely can understand what she means.
She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

But the passages commonly quoted as asking for violence that are in the Qu'ran, are merely misquoted and used for propagandist and nefarious purposes. In Arabic they're greatly different from their English, and other respective, translations. And contextual reading, as instructed in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), would be necessary - those who look for violence do not take that time to do such reading, or the care to do such reading.

Furthermore, here we again go with 'Jihad' in the sensationalist non-Muslim way of reading the word - which is not even the primary meaning there is, Jihad by sword being only one of many 'jihads' there are, and asked for when other forms of battles (as fighting own demons and for the betterment of society) have failed.

In other words: a Christianized Islam. Without rejecting the centrality of Islam theological precepts, stated by the last prophet.

Christianity is Christianity, Islam is Islam, why is nobody asking for 'Islamised Christianity' for starters, in these kinds of debates? Presuming that Christianity is morally and culturally superior to Islam already? That stems from misunderstanding of what Islam is, and critical reflection on both Islam and its relation to other religions in these days.

Too long didn't read version of my post: I'm not aiming this at you personally, just saying we should be careful as sitting down to discuss very loaded concepts, when picking biased viewing and generalizations for a starting point.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Kai'a,

How about something a bit more focused and less subjective... In 2014, 300 million Muslims or more, scattered across the globe and across many cultures believe apostasy is a crime.

 

[Kai'a]

Hi Icehorse,
I'm really not sure I can come to any common discussion grounds with someone who's an islamophobe and is going to hurl those biases around.

Again. Crime is another of the words that's loaded on their own, and has hugely different cultural connotations. My own reading of what you've said would be different from everyone else's reading on this forum just with that very word. I could ask 'how's that belief a danger? people believe all sorts of things'.

By discussions like these, we're seeing the very beliefs (misunderstood, misinterpreted ones) pathologized and criminalized, presented as threatening from the very beginning. One doesn't have to be a Muslim to see a problem with that presentation, and to engage in criticism of that attitude. Nothing more or less.

Edited: I'm not saying I'm not interested in discussion, I'm just saying I see the very point you've raised as too shaky sand to begin walking on it, because you've just broad brushed a good chunk of population as problematic and these sorts of generalizations aren't really productive. Being my whole point.

 

[icehorse]

Kai'a,

In this case, "crime" is the word that the Muslims polled used. How is it a loaded word? Apostasy is either legal or not legal. This is just a set of facts. This is not a bias.

So you ask "how is that belief a danger?". Well if you were born into a Muslim family and live in a Muslim majority country where apostasy is a crime, then you've lost a basic, modern human right. The right to choose your own religion. That's a danger. That's oppression. These are just facts, how is this "Islamophobia"?

==

A second danger is a loss of freedom of speech. In many Muslim majority countries we would not be allowed to even have this conversation. Restricting free speech is incredibly dangerous.

 

[Estro Felino]

Western criminal law especially that of the USA is virtually identical with the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia. They biggest difference is US law has more things covered under criminal law. I do not know of any Muslims that see any need to change the US criminal laws. What is desired is recognition of the civil laws. Just as the Judaic Civil laws are recognized.for Jewish civil matters.

When speaking of Sharia, it must be kept in mind Sharia differs from Nation to nation, Some things that are called Sharia

Hanafi
Maliki
Hambali
Shafi'i
Jafa'ari
Ismaili
Salafi
Wahabbi

ISIS, Al-Qaeda, some parts of Pakistan, some Taliban and a few others call Wahabbi Sharia

Saudi and Qatar call Hambali Sharia

Iran and Iraq call Jafa'ari Sharia

Most far East Muslims call Shafi'i Sharia

Most Western Muslims call Hanafi Sharia

Egypt for a large part call Salafi Sharia.

And in any democratic country it is unacceptable that a minority obeys civil laws which are different than the state law.
Even Sharia Civil Law is not something applicable. The most important concept of Western democracies is that the Law is equal for everyone.
so there cannot be two civil laws

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

That is not possible in the sense of replacing and removing verses. Quraan is is the word of God. So we can't/not qualified/not allowed (you name it) to change verses because God is perfect, his Word is perfect. Any change no matter how small it was will make it not perfect and there will be flaws.

.

I agree with you here cannot change God's Word because it fixed and eternal
And there is no difference between Europe and Saudi Arabia all Muslims

 

[Kai'a]

Kai'a,

So you ask "how is that belief a danger?". Well if you were born into a Muslim family and live in a Muslim majority country where apostasy is a crime, then you've lost a basic, modern human right. The right to choose your own religion. That's a danger. That's oppression. These are just facts, how is this "Islamophobia"?

Framing certain notion of human rights as something modern, Western, specific to non-Muslim cultures, is islamophobic. Plain and simple. Muslim world had in many ways more evolved human rights understanding and practical implementation in times Christian world was yet far behind (examples: founding of the university of Morocco.)

To automatically come with any discussion on Islam with a view it's an evil thing, is islamophobic. To pick only complicated aspects of Islam, to pick only despicable things done by a specific set of muslims (nevermind that criminals that non-criminal muslims publicly and repeatedly renounce) - that's islamophobic.

And I DO happen to agree that preventing people from that choice is hurtful (and anti Islamic, while we're at it; Allah states in Qu'ran repeatedly Islam is a choice and as nourishing as it can be only if made of free will with which humankind was granted.)

A second danger is a loss of freedom of speech. In many Muslim majority countries we would not be allowed to even have this conversation. Restricting free speech is incredibly dangerous.

Granted, but let's not blame religion for where other factors (tradition, political fractions, economic, etc) are equally, if not more so, to be blamed. It's rather easy to pick Islam as THE reason for why is there such lack of freedom, instead of actually digging deeper about things. Institutionalized codified other forms of oppression don't necessarily stem from religion itself, and religion can't be explained as an all factor for every thing there is going wrong with something.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I want to start this thread by quoting a current sentence said by Wafa Sultan:
"I personally don't think that Islam can be reformed. Unless we recreate a totally new belief system and keep the name. But whoever claims they can, has the right to try to do it"

well...I can't judge a sentence like this because I am not a Muslim, but I surely can understand what she means.
She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

In other words: a Christianized Islam. Without rejecting the centrality of Islam theological precepts, stated by the last prophet.

Islamcannot berepaired
Because Islam is a racist and colonialist ideology or
Muslims inEuropeare usingthe pious
And the pious are the verses of the Qur'an
Today Muslims are subject to the laws of non-Muslim countries, but when they have a large majority would apply their religion
The bestexample ofBosnia and Herzegovina
Bosniais the heart of the Europegeography
Islam cametothe OttomanTurks
But in late last century called for the establishment of their own State after the old Yugoslavia collapsed
Thesesimple examples
Islamcannot berepaired
1. only if the Muslim Koran said of Muhammad and his followers
Here you can reform Islam to become theory
Humanitariancriticism
2. If the reform of Islam how do you fix the God in Islam
Godin IslamfollowdesiresMohamed
Thenthe second problemin the Qur'anis amoral problem
Ethics and human behavior, Mohammad latlik
Do you think itcan fixthe versewhereGodinorderto marryMuhammadofZaynab Bint jahsh
Sothe problem ofthe Qur'anis amoral problem
Also
3. will keep every Muslim in the world carries the seed of terrorism, for the following reason
He believesin the Koranthe word of God
And the word of God directing in Jihad
4. However try Muslims say they approve of alaslam, they won't be able to deny the word of God when allowed to hit women
And also the distinction between men and women
5. I invite you to review the history well
And know the meaning of the pious in Islam

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Exactly: that's what I wanted to say. A reformation implies the right for the great majority of Muslims, (the so called "Moderate Muslims" but I do call them the "True Muslims") to speak up and to freely say that these acts are an offense to Islam.
Because they were made on Islam's behalf.
You are contrary to logic and follow the pious
True Islam is moderate Islam
Islam is the real Osama bin Laden
True Islam is Muhammad and Muhammad
When slaughter Mohammed 500 people in one day
For they are Jews
And had violated the Convention
This means that true Islamis Muhammad
When it iscontrary to Islam will be massacred like Mohamed
So true Islam that you and others
Is bin Laden and the Wahhabis and other classifications of Islam

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

You are contrary to logic and follow the pious
True Islamismoderate Islam
Islam is the real Osama bin Laden
True Islam is Muhammad and Muhammad
When slaughter Mohammed 500 people in one day
For they are Jews
And had violated the Convention
Thismeans thattrue Islamis Muhammad
When it iscontrary toIslamwill bemassacredlikeMohamed
So true Islam that you and others
Is bin Laden and the Wahhabis and other classifications of Islam

 

[Estro Felino]

Secondly, 'Islam' - that's so broad statement. What part of Islam are we talking about? Which specific practices? Of what specific populations, and stemming from which era? Are we talking something wrong at the level of clergy, or the believers? Are we talking Islam as implemented to practices of islamic states, and if so, which states? With what questions and objections in mind? And so on.

well...when I speak of Reformation, I mean that it is necessary that all imams share common values. Someone here talked about jurisprudence: fine. Reformation is only about the relationship between state and religion and how religion considers the law.

Given that lots of Muslims live in European countries, they have a completely different perception of the relationship between mosque and state than those Muslims who live under Islamic sharia.

so...all European Muslims will agree on these principles:
- that freedom of speech is sacred. Nobody can be judged for expressing their personal opinion on religion
- that freedom of sexual expression is sacred. Women have the right to wear sexy clothes and not to wear the hijab. Gays have the right to say they are gay.
- that freedom of religion is sacred. Apostasy must be respected.
- honor killings are against the state Law. Any homicide is against the law
- Domestic violence is a crime

Can these concept be universalized in all the Islamic world?
Are Reformists asking for too much?

 

[Pastek]

She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

Why muslims "should say" that all religions are equal in God's eyes ?

Would you ask the Pope(s) to say that ? I don't remember Jean-Paul 2 or Shenouda III saying it.

By Christianized Islam I don't mean a Islam accepting Christian dogmas.
I just mean an Islam that repudiates the concept of holy war (even when it was started, in the 7th century), and only embraces Christian-like values such as cosmopolitanism, brotherhood, tolerance.

I ask myself: Is the concept of holy war indispensable?

The muslims took Narbonne in France in 732 and had to leave in 759 when they have been fought by Pépin le Bref.
In Asia the last war was in Talas (Kirghizistan) in 751.
As for the Turcs i they they were the only ones who continued to fight until the 17th century i think.

It was the An Lushan Rebellion and not the defeat at Talas that ended the Tang Chinese presence in Central Asia and forced them to withdraw from Xinjiang- the significance of Talas was overblown, because the Arabs did not proceed any further after the battle.

Battle of Talas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The last holy war (crusade) was in the 13th century for the christians and in the 17th century for the muslims.

The christians didn't remove some verses in their Bible why would the muslims remove some verses from the Quran ?

As for groups like ISIS, Al Quaeda etc they are extremist groups not even considerated legitim by the Ulemas.
No muslim country declared a Holy war. Nor Irak nor Saudi Arabia nor Afghanistan.
Have you seen a muslim army declaring the Holy war ? Even those who were attacked injustly like Irak haven't.

We have seen some extremist groups claiming it, but not the majority of muslims and not a muslim country.

As for Wafa Sultan she says a lot of nonsenses.

 

[Estro Felino]

Why muslims "should say" that all religions are equal in God's eyes ?

Would you ask the Pope(s) to say that ? I don't remember Jean-Paul 2 or Shenouda III saying it.
.

I swear it to God. All Catholics priests say that all the people of the world are equal in God's eyes. Even the Gospel says that.
It says: Love you enemies. and that "whatever you did to the least of Jesus' brothers and sisters, you did to Him"

but the Pope Francis has repeatedly said that all the people of the world (and consequently, all the religions) are equal in God's eyes.
He even said that Atheists can go to Heaven. So this implies that any person can go to Heaven, regardless of their religion

 

[Woodrow LI]

Hi Kai'a,

How about something a bit more focused and less subjective... In 2014, 300 million Muslims or more, scattered across the globe and across many cultures believe apostasy is a crime.

Hi Kai'a,

How about something a bit more focused and less subjective... In 2014, 300 million Muslims or more, scattered across the globe and across many cultures believe apostasy is a crime.

For beginners the Islamic concept of crime is more like the Christian concept of sin. There are 4 or 5 crimes that require an earthly punishment. The number will vary depending upon the madhab of Sharia being followed.


I suspect even more Muslims believe apostasy is a crime. In that most of us believe that apostasy is one crime that will lead to eternal hellfire. Now as to if it is a crime that requires an earthly punishment. While not all Madhabs view apostasy as a hadud crime, those that do specify the crime of apostasy has to be the cause of other criminal acts to be a punishable crime

The statement of 300 million or more Muslims believe apostasy is a crime is not clear as it does not mean they believe it requires an earthly punishment or under what if any conditions it would.

 

[Woodrow LI]

And in any democratic country it is unacceptable that a minority obeys civil laws which are different than the state law.
Even Sharia Civil Law is not something applicable. The most important concept of Western democracies is that the Law is equal for everyone.
so there cannot be two civil laws

So does that mean you believe it is unacceptable for Judaic civil law to be recognized in every State as it now is.

An ironic state of affairs Sharia Civil law is recognized in Israel for civil matters involving Muslims. HERE

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

I want to start this thread by quoting a current sentence said by Wafa Sultan:
"I personally don't think that Islam can be reformed. Unless we recreate a totally new belief system and keep the name. But whoever claims they can, has the right to try to do it"

well...I can't judge a sentence like this because I am not a Muslim, but I surely can understand what she means.
She means that the Muslim authorities should repudiate all the passages of the Qur'an justifying violence.
They should repudiate all the passages which justify the holy war. and they should say that all religions are equal in God's eyes.

In other words: a Christianized Islam. Without rejecting the centrality of Islam theological precepts, stated by the last prophet.

I don't know why Islamic scholars make these kind of statements as though Islam is set in stone, because they base most of it on the hadith and their legal opinion. Islam certainly could be reformed by stressing the Quran first and the right of Muslims to use their reason.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Though I suppose a lot of those scholars would have a lot to lose if their prestige and power were suddenly lessened.