"Reformed" Islam

[Pastek]

so...all European Muslims will agree on these principles:
- that freedom of speech is sacred. Nobody can be judged for expressing their personal opinion on religion
- that freedom of sexual expression is sacred. Women have the right to wear sexy clothes and not to wear the hijab. Gays have the right to say they are gay.
- that freedom of religion is sacred. Apostasy must be respected.
- honor killings are against the state Law. Any homicide is against the law
- Domestic violence is a crime

Can these concept be universalized in all the Islamic world?
Are Reformists asking for too much?

European muslims respect the law of the country they live in.

You are asking muslims to agree on many points who are unislamic in their countries..

I agree that some efforts have to be done in muslim countries like concerning the freedom of speech or more rights for man, women, children etc

I want just to clarify some points :
-Many muslim countries have non-muslims citizens (including hindus, bouddhist). Muslims accept people of other faiths exept in two cities (Mecca/Medina).
-Honor killing have nothing to do with Islam.
-Freedom of speech doesn't include mocking/insulting Islam. But you can disliked it and says it, you have the proof with Wafa Sultan as she became famous after her interview in Al Jazeera.
-In some countries there are rules less or more strict concerning the clothes : some muslim countries accept "sexy" clothes other don't.
-Concerning the gays remember that only 20 or 30 years ago they couldn't even say they are gays in western countries.
Even in the us army they weren't accepted until recently.
Countries who are not even religious for the most had big issues with the right of gay people. It changed few decades ago and you urge religious people to take the train with you.
-Of course domectic violence is a crime. There's many video spots and protestations that have been made in that sense. But it's true that they should do more.

 

[Sabour]

to use their reason.

It may be for different reasons, but I urgently call for that too.

 

[Estro Felino]

So does that mean you believe it is unacceptable for Judaic civil law to be recognized in every State as it now is.

An ironic state of affairs Sharia Civil law is recognized in Israel for civil matters involving Muslims. HERE

the Judaic civil law is not applied in Europe. I sincerely don't know what you are talking about. But I am absolutely sure that European countries will never accept a dual system with two kinds of civil law.
Lex aequa omnibus: One law must be equal for all

 

[Woodrow LI]

the Judaic civil law is not applied in Europe. I sincerely don't know what you are talking about. But I am absolutely sure that European countries will never accept a dual system with two kinds of civil law.
Lex aequa omnibus: One law must be equal for all

But not to all non-Muslims. It has often been remarked on how similar Muslims and Jews are in many of their traditions, such as food laws, burial rites and language, and this case could prove no exception. Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries.


We can't drag people in off the streets
David Frei
Registrar, The London Beth Din

British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce.

SOURCE

 

[Woodrow LI]

I don't know why Islamic scholars make these kind of statements as though Islam is set in stone, because they base most of it on the hadith and their legal opinion. Islam certainly could be reformed by stressing the Quran first and the right of Muslims to use their reason.

Right on: Islam certainly could be reformed by stressing the Quran first and the right of Muslims to use their reason

You just gave a very good description of the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia.

The Quran and Sunnah however did not offer the solution to every specific case that ever came before the community. The jurists in that case had recourse to such legal methods as Ijma (consensus) and Qiyas (analogical deduction). Ijma refers to the process of obtaining consensus regarding a particular legal problem among the Companions, their successors or all the mujtahids of any one of the future generations.

SOURCE

 

[Estro Felino]

European muslims respect the law of the country they live in.

You are asking muslims to agree on many points who are unislamic in their countries..

Unislamic? what is unislamic? the freedom of speech?
the right of women to wear sexy clothes?

 

[Estro Felino]

Right on: Islam certainly could be reformed by stressing the Quran first and the right of Muslims to use their reason

You just gave a very good description of the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia.

http://talharehman.hubpages.com/hub...Special-Reference-to-the-Hanafi-School-of-Law

SOURCE

okay....in UK there are even Sharia Courts and Judaic law courts.
but there are tens of European countries that would never accept a dual system.
it's like you said that Muslims only live in UK

 

[Estro Felino]

Is the separation between mosque and state unislamic?

 

[Pastek]

I swear it to God. All Catholics priests say that all the people of the world are equal in God's eyes. Even the Gospel says that.
It says: Love you enemies. and that "whatever you did to the least of Jesus' brothers and sisters, you did to Him"

Many christians say that without the faith in Christ as the savior we aren't saved.
Loving your enemies doesn't mean they will be saved, it's just kindness toward people.
Christians used to export their religion everywhere to different tribes in America, Africa, Middle east. If they tought that all religions are equal then why they didn't accepted that some tribes keep their faiths and why some were forced ?

but the Pope Francis has repeatedly said that all the people of the world (and consequently, all the religions) are equal in God's eyes.
He even said that Atheists can go to Heaven. So this implies that any person can go to Heaven, regardless of their religion

Ok. I wasn't aware that Pope Francis said it.

Unislamic? what is unislamic? the freedom of speech?
the right of women to wear sexy clothes?

Gay mariage, mocking the religion... this is unislamic.
Blasphemy is also condemned in some christian countries like Polonia and Russia.

 

[Pastek]

Is the separation between mosque and state unislamic?

I don't think it's unislamic.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't think it's unislamic.

Maybe my information isn't of good quality, but some sources indicate that it is at least difficult to separate the State from the Mosque. Many Muslims seem to sincerely believe that Muslims ought to seek to live in Muslim-ruled countries, although I understand it is in some sense a difficult subject for many.

 

[Estro Felino]

Many christians say that without the faith in Christ as the savior we aren't saved.
Loving your enemies doesn't mean they will be saved, it's just kindness toward people.
Christians used to export their religion everywhere to different tribes in America, Africa, Middle east. If they tought that all religions are equal then why they didn't accepted that some tribes keep their faiths and why some were forced ?

Because they were not real Christian. A real Christian doesn't force anybody to convert to Christianity. It is obvious that lots of Christian kings, like the Spanish who discovered America, were not real Christians, given that they wanted to spread Christianity by force.

Gay mariage, mocking the religion... this is unislamic.
Blasphemy is also condemned in some christian countries like Polonia and Russia.

It is completely understandable that Islam disapproves of homosexuality. But it is unacceptable that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. It is understandable that Islam disapproves of
apostasy, but it is unacceptable that it is punishable by death.

As for freedom of thought, I've never said that freedom of thought implies mocking religions or prophets.
Freedom of thought means the possibility for Atheists to write books criticizing religions. Obviously with respect. It is possible to criticize something without insulting the people who believe in it.
In Europe lots of Atheists write books saying that Christianity is an absurd religion. They have the right to do that.

 

[Pastek]

Maybe my information isn't of good quality, but some sources indicate that it is at least difficult to separate the State from the Mosque. Many Muslims seem to sincerely believe that Muslims ought to seek to live in Muslim-ruled countries, although I understand it is in some sense a difficult subject for many.

You're right. I remember a tunisian friend who said that he wanted to vote for a communist guy, not because he likes communism but he thought he was sincere and had good ideas for the country.
He told me that many people believe that because the politician is a communist and for a secular state it means he's against Islam.

While the model he defended was more like the one of Turkey.
A muslim republic based in some islamic laws but who guarantee freedom and equality for every citizen even from different faiths.

 

[Pastek]

It is completely understandable that Islam disapproves of homosexuality. But it is unacceptable that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. It is understandable that Islam disapproves of
apostasy, but it is unacceptable that it is punishable by death.

Nowhere in the Quran it says that homosexuals have to be killed nor the apostates. That's why it's different from a country to an other.

As for freedom of thought, I've never said that freedom of thought implies mocking religions or prophets.
Freedom of thought means the possibility for Atheists to write books criticizing religions. Obviously with respect. It is possible to criticize something without insulting the people who believe in it.
In Europe lots of Atheists write books saying that Christianity is an absurd religion. They have the right to do that.

I agree with you.

 

[icehorse]

Because they were not real Christian. A real Christian doesn't force anybody to convert to Christianity. It is obvious that lots of Christian kings, like the Spanish who discovered America, were not real Christians, given that they wanted to spread Christianity by force.

It is completely understandable that Islam disapproves of homosexuality. But it is unacceptable that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. It is understandable that Islam disapproves of
apostasy, but it is unacceptable that it is punishable by death.

As for freedom of thought, I've never said that freedom of thought implies mocking religions or prophets.
Freedom of thought means the possibility for Atheists to write books criticizing religions. Obviously with respect. It is possible to criticize something without insulting the people who believe in it.
In Europe lots of Atheists write books saying that Christianity is an absurd religion. They have the right to do that.

As a side note, I also believe that Christianity needs serious reform, but that's for a separate thread. So stop crying "Islamophobia" you guys. I criticize ALL religions.

So, as for the idea "criticize with respect". Well sure, we should strive to be respectful of people. But there is no reason to respect ideas. Some ideas are just plain silly. And freedom of speech is MOST important in situations when fascist authorities want to stop criticism. If you allow fascist leaders to judge "disrespectful" speech, then you do NOT have free speech. So Muslims are just going to have to get used to being offended. Muslims are going to have to get used to having their faith ridiculed. That's how the world rolls these days.

 

[LuisDantas]

You know, when I think about this I get the feeling that the very idea of a reformed Islam must be presented in a very careful way in the first place if it is hoped that it will be accepted in any significant numbers.

Far as I can tell, it is not too much of an exaggeration to say that Islam is about having faith in that one has found a path that is literally protected by God himself against any needs of ever being revised. Any attempts at saying that such a path is in actual need of revision will unavoidably face a lot of resistance.

Which is not to say that it is a frivolous or unworthy idea, quite the contrary actually. But it will have to be done in a very skilled and respectful way indeed.

As for specific, concrete suggestions, indulge me for a moment:

Some Islamic concepts, including major ones such as Jihad and Sharia, are involved in a considerable amount of mistrust and internal controversy that it ill serves any honest person to maintain. Much of that mistrust and controversy can and probably should be resolved or at least diminished by direct clarifications of the various significant views that exist and pinpointing them to the communities that currently endorse or accept them, which will not necessarily correspond significantly with specific countries or even political movements. Some matrix of major disagreements would probably be a good idea as well.

It is my understanding that such an effort will be very bittersweet for many Muslims. For both religious and all too human reasons, the temptation of just calling dissenters fools or dishonest people and call it a day will be a constant, painful thorn. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that most Muslims very much want to attain a better mutual understanding, acceptance and dialogue, so there is a point to it. But it will take lots of sincere effort, honest goals and patience. And I fear that outsiders such as this one kaffir will often be less than helpful with their own views and comments, which fail to consider a lot of significant history and cultural elements.

 

[Woodrow LI]

okay....in UK there are even Sharia Courts and Judaic law courts.
but there are tens of European countries that would never accept a dual system.
it's like you said that Muslims only live in UK

While I do not find any European Nation that specifically recognizes Judaic Civil laws, I do not find any that prohibit Judaic law for civil matters.

The only time I can find anything is when a Rabbi makes a ruling in violation of State law such as a recent case in France where a Rabbi charged a woman an exorbitant fee for a divorce. HERE

However, Civil laws are not a dual system. They are the settlement of Contracts, disputes and other non-criminal matters between individuals. They do not require the writing of new laws, they do not legalize any criminal acts they apply only to the individuals involved in non-criminal matters. The only difference is in a Judaic Civil Law issue the parties use a religious arbitrator instead of a court appointed one. This serves both the Jews and the community as it frees up the courts from getting involved in cases that can be settled by a religious ruling. .

 

[Woodrow LI]

Is the separation between mosque and state unislamic?

It is a concept that is impossible for a Muslim. We believe every aspect of our life is a religious matter. All things are part of worship. Even the act of eating is a prayer or form of communion with Allaah(swt)

 

[LuisDantas]

It is a concept that is impossible for a Muslim. We believe every aspect of our life is a religious matter. All things are part of worship. Even the act of eating is a prayer or form of communion with Allaah(swt)

All the same, it is still a fact that even in the most Islamic countries your political authorities will have to deal in some way with people that are not Muslims for whatever reason. I acknowledge that it is a difficult matter, but I don't think it is an avoidable one.

 

[Pastek]

ISIS, Al-Qaeda, some parts of Pakistan, some Taliban and a few others call Wahabbi Sharia

Saudi and Qatar call Hambali Sharia

Iran and Iraq call Jafa'ari Sharia

Most far East Muslims call Shafi'i Sharia

Most Western Muslims call Hanafi Sharia

Egypt for a large part call Salafi Sharia.

I'm not sure about western muslims i think it's maybe 50/50 with the Malikism.

If we take a country like UK majority of muslims there are from Pakistan so from the Hanafi school like in Germany as the majority of muslims there are from Turkey.
While in countries like France, Belgium, Spain, Italy many are from Africa/Maghreb and are from the Maliki school.