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Reforming Your Religion from Within

lunamoth

Will to love
lilithu said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Rick
You can either abide by religious requirements of faith or leave the religion. It is not like people can decide to change the rules to their liking.

Or you can work from within to change the rules. Why does the religion only belong to those in power? I don't think so.

It's not a matter of changing the rules to one's liking. It's a matter of religion being able to adjust to what makes the most spiritual sense for the times - to remain relevant.

When Martin Luther tried to change religion from within he soon found himself excommunicated. This seems to be the case for most people inside the Abrahamic religions who call for change. They are labeled a heretic and put outside the religion, if not killed.

Yet the prophets did/do exactly this (and yes, they were sometimes killed as well).

One person's heretic is another's prophet, no?

Is it possible to change a religion from within? Are some religions more accepting of this than others? How does a religion change if not from within?

In your own religion, what happens to people who call for radical change?
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
There is really too much following going on in religion. This group follows jesus, this group follows mohammed, that group follows their bliss.

At some point, one has to stop following and be the change you want to see in the world.

A christian follows jesus, so that he can have his/her eyes on him continually. But the ultimate goal is to become jesus in this world.

When that happens your lower self dissolves into nothingness, and so does the need for religion.

Heneni
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
Is it possible to change a religion from within?

Certainly

Are some religions more accepting of this than others?

It would seem so

How does a religion change if not from within?

I don't know. Outside influence can certainly encourage change but in the end it must be the religion itself that makes the change.

In your own religion, what happens to people who call for radical change?

Well seeing as how I'm the only follower of my religion I can't exactly excommunicate myself now can I, nor am I suicidal so there would be no executions for heresy. Actually my religion is very open to change, it has to be as it is constantly changing anyway. My religion is my own spiritual journey and if a journey doesn't change then one is standing still and won't get anywhere.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
There is really too much following going on in religion. This group follows jesus, this group follows mohammed, that group follows their bliss.

At some point, one has to stop following and be the change you want to see in the world.

A christian follows jesus, so that he can have his/her eyes on him continually. But the ultimate goal is to become jesus in this world.

When that happens your lower self dissolves into nothingness, and so does the need for religion.

Heneni

If I had frubals to spread, they would be raining down on your head...

You are absolutely correct. If you continue to seek the change in others, while not changing your own opinion and ideals, then nothing is going to change...EVER. It is the fear of being called a heretic or of being ostracized from the whole which necessitates this continual division between peoples in every respect. However, what most people seem to forget is that they can never be seperated from this whole, which is humanity and life. And that true change can only ever come from within oneself. That is why it is so important to set dogmas and doctrines aside, and seek truth out for ones own self...
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
It always helps to clean your own house before you start telling others to clean theirs. ;)In other words, fix yourself first, then you can fix others. :)
 

autonomous1one1

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is really too much following going on in religion. This group follows jesus, this group follows mohammed, that group follows their bliss.

At some point, one has to stop following and be the change you want to see in the world.

A christian follows jesus, so that he can have his/her eyes on him continually. But the ultimate goal is to become jesus in this world.

When that happens your lower self dissolves into nothingness, and so does the need for religion.

Heneni
Nice post, Heneni. Thanks. May we ask for more explanation on how you mean, "But the ultimate goal is to become jesus in this world."?
 

SATYAKI

New Member
When Martin Luther tried to change religion from within he soon found himself excommunicated. This seems to be the case for most people inside the Abrahamic religions who call for change. They are labeled a heretic and put outside the religion, if not killed.

Yet the prophets did/do exactly this (and yes, they were sometimes killed as well).

One person's heretic is another's prophet, no?

Is it possible to change a religion from within? Are some religions more accepting of this than others? How does a religion change if not from within?

In your own religion, what happens to people who call for radical change?

Great post and thread. :)

Personally , I believe that all religions need reformation, and only the individual who has reformed himself in a positive manner, is capable of doing this.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Heneni,
One of your best posts.
Like others am unable to frubal.
You are on the WAY.
Keep going.
Love & rgds
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
When Martin Luther tried to change religion from within he soon found himself excommunicated. This seems to be the case for most people inside the Abrahamic religions who call for change. They are labeled a heretic and put outside the religion, if not killed.

Yet the prophets did/do exactly this (and yes, they were sometimes killed as well).

One person's heretic is another's prophet, no?

Is it possible to change a religion from within? Are some religions more accepting of this than others? How does a religion change if not from within?

In your own religion, what happens to people who call for radical change?
One person's heretic might be someone else's poet rather than prophet. The step in moving from what is established POV to a new perspective is one that artists are best adept at achieving historically without having their heads removed. Not that the death of a heretic be necessarily in vain, as Christians would say.
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend lunamoth,

When Martin Luther tried to change religion from within he soon found himself excommunicated. This seems to be the case for most people inside the Abrahamic religions who call for change. They are labeled a heretic and put outside the religion, if not killed.

Yet the prophets did/do exactly this (and yes, they were sometimes killed as well).

One person's heretic is another's prophet, no?

Is it possible to change a religion from within? Are some religions more accepting of this than others? How does a religion change if not from within?

In your own religion, what happens to people who call for radical change?

Good question.
To start with CHANGE is the only thing that is permanent in this universe.
Those who are able to live with change by changing themselves live Life others fall by the way side.
Religion too should be able to CHANGE. For religion it is not the goal which needs to change but the WAY or manner of reaching them.
This is the reason the rigidity of Abrahamic religions are coming to fore and slowly the followers are leaning towards other dharmic religions.
The most important point is that religion means a WAY a PATH and each individual seeks his own path when he finds that he has to adapt to change which may not be in the path presently followed by him. Meaning to say that even staying with a particular religious group each individual's interpretation and way of following them are always unique. It is not necessary to shout about your personal beliefs and try and be like Martin Luther be an ordinary human which all religions are trying to say.
Love & rgds
 

autonomous1one1

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
.....Is it possible to change a religion from within? ..
Greetings. Just wanted to offer that there is a powerful human transformation blossoming now into the world that has the power to change all religions from the way they are practiced and understood by most. There are many examples of this change breaking into Christianity but let me highlight only one for the purposes of this thread.

None others than Ken Wilber and Father Thomas Keating have coupled to give us a DVD (it must be purchased) titled "The Future of Christianity" with their perspectives and reflections on the topic, and "A Startling New Vision of Hope for the 21st Century." Exploring the Future of Christianity | Integral Life . There is a 2 minute teaser about the DVD at the site.

Permit me to quote one small piece from the brochure about "The Future of Christianity" to point towards a mere glimpse of the transformation from the Christian perspective.

"....Though the Kingdom is sometimes pictured as other-worldly and end-of-times, Jesus taught that 'the Kingdom is within' and 'the Kingdom is at hand.' In other words, the Kingdom of God is here and now, for those who have eyes to see it. As Jim Marion points out in "Putting on the Mind of Christ," the Kingdom can be understood as a state of consciousness. Contemplation brings us to the threshold of this state, and there Christ reveals the Kingdom, transforming us into the love which we seek. 'We are to become Heaven,' says Meister Eckhart, 'so that God might find a home here.'

Being 'born again' takes on a breathtaking new meaning in this light. ......Through spiritual practice, the path unfolds until we are 'born again' from above, ....And in the course of our journey, we might indeed awaken to the nondual experience of the Kindgom of God, in which we echo with God and with Christ the mystical assertion: 'I am who AM.' The realization of the Kingdom, everpresent in our midst, is the future of Christianity."
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Interesting to hear about that A1. Yes, there is a lot of talk in our Diocese lately about the large changes coming to Christianity, and not just the Episcopal Church and not just because of things like the ordination of women and homosexual priests.

A harbinger of the change is the rise in Pentacostal religions. It reminds me of what happened in the mid-1800's in the US when so many new religions were 'born,' typified by the 'burned-over district' of upstate NY (where I grew up so it is of particular interest).

I think the change happens because of the dynamic between what is happening inside and outside the church. Individuals alone can't cause much change from within, but people leaving the church and starting up new ones will eventually result in changes in all the denominations. The first church will eventually change in response to the things going on in the new sects. Even though Catholicism does not really admit it, there was reform in the Catholic Church in response to the Protestant movement. It takes a long time, but it happens. And I think this works between different religions, and between religions and secular society as well.
 

autonomous1one1

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Greetings Luna. With the way that change in many areas is accelerating at ever increasing rates it would seem reasonable that we will see change in the religions as well. The shrinkage of the world with consequent increasing size of an individual's world puts one and one's religion into dialogue with other traditions as well as all other developments. The heart message of the religions is thought by many of us to be eternal but our understanding and practice is likely to change dramatically as Wilber and Keating have suggested. The information explosion is clearly an aid in this and makes personal change and direct experience of the divine more accessible.
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
Even though Catholicism does not really admit it, there was reform in the Catholic Church in response to the Protestant movement.
Very true, and I think we are getting better at admitting this fact. I am studying protestant theologians like Barth at a Catholic University, although some might label our school a bit liberal....
 

tennis_hero

Member
Interesting topic.

when does change for (what you perceive to be) better become corruption and blasphemy.

an example: Homosexuals in the church, or becoming a pastor.... if you stick with biblical scripture (man shall not lie with man- OT, or in Paul's letters) then certainly, there is no place for homosexuals and biblical doctrine to co-exist, they've chosen to live a life that is outside of what has been- that is not to say it doesn't acknowledge they may truly have been born that way, maybe by prescribing to them to not follow their urges, it acknowledges to them that their feelings are something real. but if they choose to act on those impulses then for sure, if you stick to the bible you can't argue in favor of them

now some churches go against that, some might argue they do this because its better to love the sinner and hate the sin, and there's bigger fish to fry in the world then worry about what some people are doing in their own homes in their own time.... others would say by accepting gay pastors you distort the Bible and hand pick to suit your own needs.

Reforming a faith, or trying to update it will always bring with it problems i suppose
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
When Martin Luther tried to change religion from within he soon found himself excommunicated. This seems to be the case for most people inside the Abrahamic religions who call for change. They are labeled a heretic and put outside the religion, if not killed.

Yet the prophets did/do exactly this (and yes, they were sometimes killed as well).

One person's heretic is another's prophet, no?

Is it possible to change a religion from within? Are some religions more accepting of this than others? How does a religion change if not from within?

In your own religion, what happens to people who call for radical change?
I would say that out of the organized religions (meaning having a social structure) none have been more prone to change than mine, Unitarian Universalism. Our theology, rooted in human experience, encourages change to remain always relevant to the times. Indeed, some have complained that we change too easily. (That is an interesting question too, how much change is too much, but not the subject of this thread.)

The reason why I bring this up is because even within UU, which is so prone to change, we have vilified our prophets, calling them heretics or worse.

Ralph Waldo Emerson had to leave his pulpit because his Unitarian congregation was not willing to follow his movement from viewing God as transcendent "Father" to viewing God as immanent "Spirit." But one generation later, the rest of American Unitarianism did catch up with him, and now we proudly hail him as one of our most cherished prophets.

We UUs proudly point to the abolitionists within Unitarianism, such as Theodore Parker and Moncure Conway, as evidence that we have a long history of being on the side of racial justice. We do (as do others). But we conveniently forget to point out that in their own time, prophets such as Parker and Conway were declared "radicals" and banned from the pulpits of mainstream Unitarianism.

We UUs currently are stuggling with the question of whether we are a church that abhors war but understands that sometimes in the face of grave injustice it's the lesser of two evils (just war) or we are more like the Quakers, a "peace church" that says that war is never the lesser evil (pacificsm). We can ask this question now but as the U.S. marched towards WWI, when John Haynes Holmes tried to preach his moral objection to all war, he was banned from the pulpits of a number of Unitarian churches as well.

The point I'm trying to make is that, yes, people can reform religions from within. It happens all the time, even with those religions that we generally think of as the most conservative. But as these people are in the process, as they are calling their denominations to follow, they very likely will be branded heretics or worse. They may even have to eventually leave the religion that they love. But *if* they are right, then their church will eventually follow, and it will have been because of them. Prophets cannot do what they do for glory and/or appreciation. They must do it because they feel compelled by their sense of justice on the one hand and their love for their church on the other.
 

autonomous1one1

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Greetings Lilithu. Thank you for those thoughts and interesting details. It had never come to my attention that Emerson had a 'negative' period with the UU church but it is not surprising. As another point of interest, one might note the similarities between ideas put forward in the "Over-Soul" and the state that Father Keating is offering as well as a host of others who are surfacing now at an increasing pace.

Regards,
a..1
 
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