Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[Shermana]

True, resurrection and reincarnation are not the same. I have not find any Abrahamic Scripture proclaiming reincarnation. In the NT eternal life for those justified through Christ is mentioned several times, hence the immortality of the soul. However, man's (and women's!) soul will return to their own former bodies, i.e., be resurrected, on the Day of Judgement when the Lord will separate those who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and those destined for Hell. Both groups will experience Eternity. Read the Book of Revelation

"Naked I return to the womb" should proclaim it loud and clear.

And actually, "Eternal Life" is mostly "Age-long" life. If it was Eternal it would be Aiodos, not Aionios.

As for the Book of Revelation, it's not exactly clear whether it refers to a one time event or a great unfolding of events throughout time or what.

 

[Shiranui117]

"Naked I return to the womb" should proclaim it loud and clear.

And actually, "Eternal Life" is mostly "Age-long" life. If it was Eternal it would be Aiodos, not Aionios.

So what do you say to Strong's Concordance? Aionios - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

Also, your argument seems to go against how the Greeks interpret the Bible in their own language.

 

[Shermana]

Shiranui

So what do you say to Strong's Concordance? Aionios - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

I'd say Young's literal disagrees, and as many others would tell you here, Strong's is not the end all on this subject, and this issue is disputed more on Theological than Grammatical situations for this controversial aspect of the dead language.

AIN -- AINIOS

An excellent article.

Also, your argument seems to go against how the Greeks interpret the Bible in their own language.

Back that claim up please. Are you saying you think that ancient Koine is the same language as modern Greek (or dark age Greek for that matter)? Examples please.

 

[Shiranui117]

Shiranui

I'd say Young's literal disagrees, and as many others would tell you here, Strong's is not the end all on this subject, and this issue is disputed more on Theological than Grammatical situations for this controversial aspect of the dead language.

AIN -- AINIOS

An excellent article.

I'll read that and comment if I have anything to say.

Back that claim up please. Are you saying you think that ancient Koine is the same language as modern Greek (or dark age Greek for that matter)? Examples please.

The Greek Orthodox (who conduct their services in Koine Greek, BTW) certainly need to be knowledgeable about the language in order to be able to properly say a Koine Greek Divine Liturgy, including reading the Gospel and Epistle and expounding upon their meaning during the homily.

Greek Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And they most certainly believe that we gain eternal life after the Resurrection.

 

[Shermana]

I'll read that and comment if I have anything to say.

The Greek Orthodox (who conduct their services in Koine Greek, BTW) certainly need to be knowledgeable about the language in order to be able to properly say a Koine Greek Divine Liturgy, including reading the Gospel and Epistle and expounding upon their meaning during the homily.

Greek Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And they most certainly believe that we gain eternal life after the Resurrection.

I'd have to say that even if they claim to use Koine in their liturgy, it's their attempt to reconstruct the Koine with their particular preferences as to how to translate that may be at odds with how other scholars may view it. I can imagine a few controversial Greek words that they may prefer to translate a particular way that others would disagree with.

Perhaps someone competent in Greek studies can offer an educated view on this.

 

[Muffled]

It was not said that he 'was' Elijah reincarnated...only that he would do the same work and have the same persuasive power as Elijah.

When the Jews thought that Jesus was John or Jeremiah or Elijah...they were not suggesting belief in reincarnation...they were expressing belief in the resurrection.

They were taught that God can raise the dead. Do you see the difference?

You are stating things that are not in the text: Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.

I beleive it doesn't say that Elijah was reincarnated but when it says that John is Elijah it means the same thing. I believe it says nothing about work or persuasiveness and that you have completely out of context added those notion s that aren't in the text.

I see no evidence of that. I believe this is pure speculation on your part.

I believe that Jesus has a great different understanding from what was taught or people thought they knew.

 

[Muffled]

They don't accept it because belief in reincarnation totally undermines their idea that if you don't believe in Jesus you go to hell FOREVER.

For----EVER.

And naturally, orthodox opinions only need apply for most it seems.

I believe there is no text that supports the concept of people going to Hell when they die.

There is the story of the beggar, Lazarus and the rich man but Jesus doesn't explain the relevance of the story. I believe one has to die to go to Hell but there is nothing in the story to indicate when and how that can happen. The story is spoken of as a past event but that might not mean much since it is possible that the people were never real and the events never happened ie that Jesus was telling a fictional story.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Xchristian, yes, now you are starting to look at it properly. Elijah can come in DIFFERENT incarnations and not as reincarnations. Good. KB

I see a definite problem with this concept. John the Baptist was actuall born with a mother and father providing his genetic makeup so I don't believe that John-the Baptist can be a repetative incaranation to the same body. I believe an incarnation to a different body is a re-incarnation, an incarnation to the same body is a resurrection. I believe the whole concept of re-incarnation is that the spirit that was in Elijah was once known as Elijah but when he re-incarnates the person known as Elijah doesn't exist but the spirit that was in Elijah still exists as the spirit that is in John the Baptist.

 

[Shermana]

I believe there is no text that supports the concept of people going to Hell when they die.

There is the story of the beggar, Lazarus and the rich man but Jesus doesn't explain the relevance of the story. I believe one has to die to go to Hell but there is nothing in the story to indicate when and how that can happen. The story is spoken of as a past event but that might not mean much since it is possible that the people were never real and the events never happened ie that Jesus was telling a fictional story.

I think Jesus DOES explain the relevance, in the preceding verse to the story Luke 16:17 which is the "build up". Those who ignore "Moses and the prophets" will burn in hell. Many in my opinion erroneously assume it's talking about "ignoring Moses and the prophets" in the sense of "ignoring their prophecies about Jesus" but this view completely dodges the concept of contrasting Lazarus from the Rich Man who didn't obey the Law to help the poor, and the fact that it directly proceeds from Luke 16:17. It's clearly talking about obedience to the commandments and the prophets. Failure to do so will result in a fiery abode. For how long is another story up to debate.

As to whether it's a possibly real story or not, besides the fact that it's not explicitly called a parable, what would be the point either way regardless of telling the story?

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Everyone,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
I believe that the resurrected Yahushua is the restored YAHWEH ELOHIM.
I believe that Yahushua come into this world as a living soul through a miraculous conception in which a male sperm entered a female egg in the womb of a virgin. I believe the male sperm came from Joseph, and I believe that the female egg came from Mary. The Holy Spirit brought the two together in the womb of Mary.
I believe that Yahushua had a preexistence as YAHWEH. I believe that many men and women in the past had a preexistence, and I believe that many right now did preexist.
I believe that we all potentially came to be when YAHWEH ELOHIM emptied HIMSELF into Adam and Eve. They were given the spirit of ELOHIM, and this spirit is passed to their offspring and our offspring at conception.
I believe that it is the spirit which gives life to our flesh, and I believe that the sperm of our father and the egg of our mother are living flesh which came together to make us one body and one spirit. I believe that both our body and our spirit are therefore a combination of what our parents were. They were living souls, and we become living souls through their sharing of physical love.
Because I believe the above things, there are some things that I do not believe.
I do not believe in the immortality of the soul.
I do not believe in the common notion of reincarnation. I believe, as I have stated, that I did receive my spirit from my parents at conception. While I had a preexistence, the living soul known as Latuwr never existed before. I am one of a kind, and so are each of you.
Thanking any in advance that should be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Shermana]

So Latuwr,

I believe that the resurrected Yahushua is the restored YAHWEH ELOHIM.

Why is it that Jesus still refers to God as a separate being after being resurrected? As "his god"?

I do not believe in the immortality of the soul.

And what do you think Job means when he says "naked I return to the womb"?

If you believe in pre-existence, how does that not confirm a soul? How was Jeremiah known "before the womb"?

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Shermana,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I believe that a living soul is the combination of flesh and spirit (see Genesis 6:3). I believe that a living soul is first conceived in its mother's womb, and, then, the living soul is born into this world. I believe that just as there exists a physical womb, there also exists a spiritual womb, and I do believe that YAHWEH ELOHIM is the source or spiritual mother of all the living (see Jeremiah 2:13). I believe that when a living soul dies, the spirit of that soul returns to its source. I do not believe that the soul is a spirit; rather, I believe that the soul has a spirit, and, at death, the spirit of the soul departs and returns to its spiritual source, and, therefore, I do not believe that it is possible for a living soul to return to its physical mother's womb and be physically born again into this world, but I do believe in being born again. Of course, as you should know, being born again is a spiritual process and not a physical one, and being born again has nothing to do with the common notion of reincarnation.
When Job hears the news of the death of his family, Job confesses that he did not possess anything when he came into the world, and Job also confesses that one should not expect to have anything when one dies and returns to YAHWEH. I believe with Job that YAHWEH gives and that YAHWEH takes away, and I believe that in both that YAHWEH should be and is to be blessed.
I also believe that the resurrected Messiah Yahushua is the firstfruits of the dead. While resurrection is a form of reincarnation, resurrection is not reincarnation; otherwise, how can we even speak of a firstfruits from the dead in the context of reincarnation? I mean, was My Messiah Yahushua the first to be reincarnated in the thinking of those who believe in reincarnation?
I believe that the resurrection is solely based on the fulfillment of the Law which fulfillment continues after the resurrection. When you ask me concerning My Messiah Yahushua ascending to HIS Father and My Father, to HIS ELOHIM and My ELOHIM, I would ask you to turn to Deuteronomy 26:1-11. Please notice exactly what the bearer of the firstfruits is commanded to recite or confess before YAHWEH. When Yahushua confesses before HIS Father that HIS Father went down into Egypt few in number, what do you think this confession really means? How did our Father go down into Egypt?
I believe that YAHWEH ELOHIM, who is a spirit, emptied HIMSELF into Adam and Eve, and I believe that this emptying culminates in the birth of HIS Only Begotten Son who is the resurrected Messiah Yahushua, and I believe that this birth occurs through the resurrection (see Acts 13:33) and not through reincarnation.
Of course, when we speak of the ELOHIM having an Only Begotten Son, we should not be thinking of the ELOHIM in human terms. I believe that in the spiritual realm or world, a Son must be viewed as the rebirth or restoration of the Father. They are one and the same. Granted, I must admit that this reproduction is in a sense a form of reincarnation, but it is reincarnation through resurrection.
I believe that My Messiah Yahushua is the spiritual Mother of all the Living, and I believe that My Messiah Yahushua is also the Father of all the Living.
Shermana, do you yourself believe in being born again in this present life? If so, who is your mother, and who is your daddy?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Xchristian]

I say this is too much bending of scripture that certainly makes it break. It's as simple as: "This (jesus) is the Baptist whom I beheaded". jesus knows this is reincarnation, people around the speaker know it too. but the church hates to admit it because it eradicates the whole doctrine of eternal hell.

 

[Muffled]

I say this is too much bending of scripture that certainly makes it break. It's as simple as: "This (jesus) is the Baptist whom I beheaded". jesus knows this is reincarnation, people around the speaker know it too. but the church hates to admit it because it eradicates the whole doctrine of eternal hell.

I do not believe this is the case. It simply eliminates hell as an immediate result of death. It appears to me that hell is connected to the End Times and therefore the ossibility of going there still exists. Not only does hell come into play at the end times but also after the thousand year reign when the Judgement takes place.

 

[Muffled]

I think Jesus DOES explain the relevance, in the preceding verse to the story Luke 16:17 which is the "build up". Those who ignore "Moses and the prophets" will burn in hell. Many in my opinion erroneously assume it's talking about "ignoring Moses and the prophets" in the sense of "ignoring their prophecies about Jesus" but this view completely dodges the concept of contrasting Lazarus from the Rich Man who didn't obey the Law to help the poor, and the fact that it directly proceeds from Luke 16:17. It's clearly talking about obedience to the commandments and the prophets. Failure to do so will result in a fiery abode. For how long is another story up to debate.

As to whether it's a possibly real story or not, besides the fact that it's not explicitly called a parable, what would be the point either way regardless of telling the story?

I believe Jesus is referring to a final determination. I believe this is a warning of a final determiantion to come, not the final determination.

 

[Xchristian]

I do not believe this is the case. It simply eliminates hell as an immediate result of death. It appears to me that hell is connected to the End Times and therefore the ossibility of going there still exists. Not only does hell come into play at the end times but also after the thousand year reign when the Judgement takes place.

if he is not an immediate destination, then reincarnation is the only possile alternative, which is not accepted by the church, even though it is there right in the heart of the NT.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Everyone,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
I believe that the resurrected Yahushua is the restored YAHWEH ELOHIM.
I believe that Yahushua come into this world as a living soul through a miraculous conception in which a male sperm entered a female egg in the womb of a virgin. I believe the male sperm came from Joseph, and I believe that the female egg came from Mary. The Holy Spirit brought the two together in the womb of Mary.
I believe that Yahushua had a preexistence as YAHWEH. I believe that many men and women in the past had a preexistence, and I believe that many right now did preexist.
I believe that we all potentially came to be when YAHWEH ELOHIM emptied HIMSELF into Adam and Eve. They were given the spirit of ELOHIM, and this spirit is passed to their offspring and our offspring at conception.
I believe that it is the spirit which gives life to our flesh, and I believe that the sperm of our father and the egg of our mother are living flesh which came together to make us one body and one spirit. I believe that both our body and our spirit are therefore a combination of what our parents were. They were living souls, and we become living souls through their sharing of physical love.
Because I believe the above things, there are some things that I do not believe.
I do not believe in the immortality of the soul.
I do not believe in the common notion of reincarnation. I believe, as I have stated, that I did receive my spirit from my parents at conception. While I had a preexistence, the living soul known as Latuwr never existed before. I am one of a kind, and so are each of you.
Thanking any in advance that should be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

I believe this is speculation. It is just as likely that God could have combined matching DNA in the egg without a sperm.

Although I believe this is possible the text does not suggest it.

I believe there is no evidence to support this view. I would posit that Adam and Eve's ability to sin suggests that the Spirit is not that of Yahweh who does not sin. There is also no evidence that offspring have anything in common with Adam, Eve and Yahweh other than being spirits.

I believe there is no text which supports this notion.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
You commented:
"I believe this is speculation. It is just as likely that God could have combined matching DNA in the egg without a sperm."
I agree that many things are possible, but understanding this issue requires that the statements made by YAHWEH to both Abraham and David be examined and believed.
YAHWEH told Abraham these things:
Genesis 15:4-5
4 And, behold, the word of YAHWEH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Genesis 17:19
19 And ELOHIM said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Notice above that the Seed of Abraham must come forth from his bowels. Also notice that this Seed does not come from just any woman; rather, this Seed must come forth from Abraham's wife, Sarah.
Both men and women have seed (please read Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 24:60). One big difference between men and women is that men can sow their seed; women cannot. I agree that when the seed of a man combines with the seed of a woman in her womb that the DNA of the new person is established. This new person is a combination of the DNA of his or her father and mother. This new person can then pass on that DNA to his or her offspring. Of course, DNA is physical. Our DNA is not spiritual
YAHWEH ELOHIM on the other hand is a spirit, and YAHWEH therefore has no physical DNA to give to anyone, but YAHWEH does possess spirit that can be passed from parents to children.
It is the spirit of YAHWEH that was given to Adam and Eve that enlivens our DNA. While the spirit is not our DNA, the spirit is an exact record of our DNA. The spirit in each of us knows everything about us, our physical makeup, our thoughts, our hopes, and dreams, our righteous deeds, our evil deeds, that is, all our transgressions. When we die, our spirit goes back to YAHWEH who does then possess an exact record of what we once were. This is why the resurrection is possible.
Please note for future discussion that I believe that our physical DNA can be altered by our physical activity, be that activity good or evil.
So, it is possible as you have expressed that the spirit of YAHWEH ELOHIM could have recreated or duplicated the DNA of Joseph in the womb of Mary, but this would mean that both the spirit of Abraham and the DNA of Abraham did not come from the loins of Abraham as promised, and, therefore, Messiah Yahushua is not a true son of Abraham, but rather a clone.
My Messiah Yahushua is not a clone. HE is a true son of Abraham, and HE is the Seed of Abraham as Paul does teach (Galatians 3:16).
I have much more to say in reply to you, and I will continue ELOHIM willing in my next post.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[james2ko]

So Latuwr,

Why is it that Jesus still refers to God as a separate being after being resurrected? As "his god"?

And what do you think Job means when he says "naked I return to the womb"?

If you believe in pre-existence, how does that not confirm a soul? How was Jeremiah known "before the womb"?

Returning to the womb was a metaphor signifying returning to the earth:

Gen_3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
​

Notice how David describes his formation in his mother's womb:

Psa 139:13-15 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.​

After losing all of his possessions, Job utilized the same figurative language to lament the fact he came out of the womb (was born) with nothing and will return to the "womb" --the earth (dust) with nothing. The prophet Jonah also alludes to this figurative concept in a prayer while in the belly of the fish:

Jon 2:2 And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol [the grave] I cried, And You heard my voice​

 

[Xchristian]

Latwur, I wish you use proofs rather than dreams.