Reincarnation vs Resurrection. Which is real?

[Thinking Homer]

As you may well know, the concept of the afterlife in the Abrahamic and Oriental religions differ widely. Whereas one view states one life, one death, and one judgement; the other states numerous life cycles over multiple universes. Here are some scriptural basis for each religious view:

'Then you will know that I am Adonai — when I have opened your graves and made you get up out of your graves, my people! ' Yechezk'el (Ezk) 37:13 (CJB)

'in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ' 1 Corinthians 15:52 (NASB)

And of His signs is that you see the land still. But when We send down water upon it, it stirs and grows. Surely, He Who revived it will revive the dead. He is Able to do all things. (Quran 41:39)

Just as the embodied soul continuously passes from childhood to youth to old age, similarly, at the time of death, the soul passes into another body. The wise are not deluded by this. (Bhagavad Gita 2:13)

Life is a journey. Death is a return to earth. The universe is like an inn. The passing years are like dust. Regard this phantom world As a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, A flash of lightning in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp - a phantom - and a dream. (Vajracchedikā 32)

So is there any evidence for either views? Did we really have past life experiences? Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Or do we simply cease to exist?

Note that I am open to answers such as personal revelations or past experiences. If you had an Akashic reading done, I am also very interested in how this is carried out and the exact procedure in which it is done.

I created this thread to bridge the gap between different religions that do not often interact with each other, and I hope that we can engage in a meaningful and intellectual way so that both groups may learn something about each other's worldview. I also hope that we can challenge each other on our respective beliefs in a civil manner, and the basis on which we place our faith.

 

[wizanda]

The resurrection of the saints is real, and reincarnation has been scientifically proven. - Thus your poll needs both as an option.
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/research/ian-stevenson.html
In my opinion.

 

[Cacotopia]

Why worry when you can no longer consciously affect the world of the living? As far as anything has been proven. Too much thought is applied to this question imo.

 

[Thinking Homer]

The resurrection of the saints is real, and reincarnation has been scientifically proven. - Thus your poll needs both as an option.
In my opinion.

The premise of the discussion is that it has to be one or the other, it can't be both (your soul can't both resurrect and reincarnate at the same time). And when you say scientifically proven, please be more specific

 

[danieldemol]

What about the option of living on as a spirit or soul without a physical body?

 

[wizanda]

And when you say scientifically proven, please be more specific

Already was more specific; posted the link under the words stating it.

your soul can't both resurrect and reincarnate at the same time

Reincarnation according to Judaism (Gilgul) is for the progression of the Messianic age; with some souls Revelation 6:9-11 choosing to be put into a place awaiting the time of Godliness.

So both literally happen, those worthy reincarnate to help others with enlightenment (Bodhisattva), and those unworthy reincarnate to see if they will learn enlightenment or go lower than here.

Resurrection happens at the end for everyone worthy to be infinite.

In my opinion.

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe in other realms. Since there seems to be activity, there, where is the reincarnation? The spirit just goes where it is supposed to.

The spirits maintain their character, they're still them.

This brings up the question, who, or even what... are we? We aren't physical. The physical self is a state, not a point of existence that defines us.

 

[Thinking Homer]

Already was more specific; posted the link under the words stating it.

Reincarnation according to Judaism (Gilgul) is for the progression of the Messianic age; with some souls Revelation 6:9-11 choosing to be put into a place awaiting the time of Godliness.

So both literally happen, those worthy reincarnate to help others with enlightenment (Bodhisattva), and those unworthy reincarnate to see if they will learn enlightenment or go lower than here.

Resurrection happens at the end for everyone worthy to be infinite.

In my opinion.

Oh I see. I read the article now. I understand the past life experiences as a basis for reincarnation, but why is he investigating birth marks? Isn't the whole basis of reincarnation on atman? (Only the soul is eternal the body is different?). And can not such birthmarks and birth defects be attributed to genetic inheritance?

 

[danieldemol]

... And can not such birthmarks and birth defects be attributed to genetic inheritance?

Or random gene mutation?

 

[wizanda]

And can not such birthmarks and birth defects be attributed to genetic inheritance?

According to his research yes, and out of thousands of cases he found successful cases....

Yet for me what proves reincarnation is cases like these:

Isn't the whole basis of reincarnation on atman? (Only the soul is eternal the body is different?)

The soul which is like an evolving piece of music, manifests parts of our looks; those enlightened can recognize people from their past life's, as certain parts of their facial characteristics become shaped the same.

It is like with the Dalai Lama, multiple tests are done to see that his soul is the same being, with the same tastes, and likes over different lifes... So lots of things are stored on our soul record.

In my opinion.

 

[Thinking Homer]

The resurrection of the saints is real, and reincarnation has been scientifically proven. - Thus your poll needs both as an option.
In my opinion.

The reason I did not put both as an option is because reincarnation does not appear in the Bible. In fact there are a lot of verses that state the contrary.

'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, ' Hebrews 9:27

 

[wizanda]

The reason I did not put both as an option is because reincarnation does not appear in the Bible. In fact there are a lot of verses that state the contrary.

Christ said John the Baptist was Elijah, and when asking his disciples who they thought he was, they said "one of the prophets or Elijah returned"...

So Yeshua taught reincarnation, where he said, "those who have an ear let them hear", and his disciples believed in it...

Judaism accepts it in the form of Gilgul, and if we question the Biblical text in Malachi 4:5-6 it says Elijah (John the Baptist) came before the Lord (Yeshua).

It is only that one verse in Hebrews that overturned reincarnation, and up until around 533AD it was taught by the church.

In my opinion.

 

[Thinking Homer]

Christ said John the Baptist was Elijah, and when asking his disciples who they thought he was, they said "one of the prophets or Elijah returned"...

So Yeshua taught reincarnation, where he said, "those who have an ear let them hear", and his disciples believed in it...

Judaism accepts it in the form of Gilgul, and if we question the Biblical text in Malachi 4:5-6 it says Elijah (John the Baptist) came before the Lord (Yeshua).

It is only that one verse in Hebrews that overturned reincarnation, and up until around 533AD it was taught by the church.

In my opinion.

Was John the Baptist the reincarnation of Elijah? No, for the following reasons:
1) Elijah never died
'As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. ' (2 Kings 2:11)

2) When the Bible talks about the spirit of Elijah resting on someone, they are referring to the succession of prophets, not reincarnation:
'Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha." And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him. ' (2 Kings 2:15) [Both Elijah and Elisha were alive at the same time before Elijah was taken up into heaven]

3) Elijah appears again in the New Testament after John the Baptist was beheaded
'Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." ' (Matthew 17:4)

4) The person in question denied it himself
'This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." ' (John 1:19-21)

Clearly when Jesus referred to John as the Elijah who is to come, it was an allegorical statement, not a literal one.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As you may well know, the concept of the afterlife in the Abrahamic and Oriental religions differ widely. Whereas one view states one life, one death, and one judgement; the other states numerous life cycles over multiple universes. Here are some scriptural basis for each religious view:

'Then you will know that I am Adonai — when I have opened your graves and made you get up out of your graves, my people! ' Yechezk'el (Ezk) 37:13 (CJB)

'in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ' 1 Corinthians 15:52 (NASB)

And of His signs is that you see the land still. But when We send down water upon it, it stirs and grows. Surely, He Who revived it will revive the dead. He is Able to do all things. (Quran 41:39)

Just as the embodied soul continuously passes from childhood to youth to old age, similarly, at the time of death, the soul passes into another body. The wise are not deluded by this. (Bhagavad Gita 2:13)

Life is a journey. Death is a return to earth. The universe is like an inn. The passing years are like dust. Regard this phantom world As a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, A flash of lightning in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp - a phantom - and a dream. (Vajracchedikā 32)

So is there any evidence for either views? Did we really have past life experiences? Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Or do we simply cease to exist?

Note that I am open to answers such as personal revelations or past experiences. If you had an Akashic reading done, I am also very interested in how this is carried out and the exact procedure in which it is done.

I created this thread to bridge the gap between different religions that do not often interact with each other, and I hope that we can engage in a meaningful and intellectual way so that both groups may learn something about each other's worldview. I also hope that we can challenge each other on our respective beliefs in a civil manner, and the basis on which we place our faith.

Well, I dont know about the abrahamic afterlife, but in Buddhism the idea is as long as we are attached to greed, ego (termed as lust among other things), we are reborn back into this life. There is a continuation of mind (or some say consciousness) that the thoughts and intent behind good deeds stay in each life even though we have different bodies.

I compare it to a dirty string; the dirt shapes a string so people think there is a string under the dirt. Consciousness is that X to which the dirt shapes; its nothingness.

So, when we get rid of attachments, the dirt, we see there is nothing there. Its an illusion.

Afterlife rebirth is trying to take off the dirt. Not by faith and belief, but by action, prayer, and meditation.

Once there is no dirt and there is nothing, we die; we cease to exist.

As for other religions, Im not sure. Im learning more about rebirth myself-well, in a non-intellectual perspective.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Ian Stevenson - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Ian Stevenson - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

Both are beliefs. There is no reality in belief. The idea of trying to prove a religious belief is a fruitless exercise. Go do something useful for yourself or for mankind.

 

[wizanda]

4) The person in question denied it himself

The Gospel of John is made up.. Thus he never said that, and it blatantly contradicts Yeshua telling us he was Elijah.

3) Elijah appears again in the New Testament after John the Baptist was beheaded

So after the soul of Elijah leaves the body of John the Baptist, he comes back here to tell Yeshua he is OK at the Transfiguration.

In my opinion.

 

[Earthling]

Why worry when you can no longer consciously affect the world of the living? As far as anything has been proven. Too much thought is applied to this question imo.

Nothing has been proven either way. i mean you can assume that to the relatively few people that witnessed the alleged resurrections of the Bible, or any other possibility within the framework of the OP by any other paradigm is evidence if you are an adherent, but there is no evidence of any possibility, including that which is most often proposed by atheists, the ceasing of existence, unless you take into serious consideration the near death hallucinations most probably reflective of the cultural narrative supplied by it's specific beliefs, even if, for example, those beliefs may be based upon the Bible, though from a theological rather than academic understanding of it.

That's a bit of a word salad. An example. In Christendom its commonly reported that near death experiences involve the light, seeing dead relatives (in heaven or hell). All of this is traditional teachings contrary to the Bible, which teaches death is unconsciousness with a possibility of resurrection. They don't hallucinate that they are resurrected.

 

[Earthling]

The Gospel of John is made up.

That is, as you say, your opinion, though you state it as fact.

Thus he never said that, and it blatantly contradicts Yeshua telling us he was Elijah.

He was Elijah in the same sense that he was Moses and Adam.

So after the soul of Elijah leaves the body of John the Baptist, he comes back here to tell Yeshua he is OK at the Transfiguration.

In my opinion.

The soul has nothing to do with it. Jesus was likened to these people, nor these people themselves or their disembodied souls, which is against Jewish teachings of that time. Its a simile not a reincarnation or transmigration of the pagan immortal soul.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't really believe in death. Or birth, for that matter.

Matter and energy are constantly being exchanged, and it is always paired creation/destruction. Matter and energy leaves one thing ("destruction" or "death") and enters some other thing ("creation" or "birth"). The rest is something of a human construct, albeit a useful one for various purposes.