Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Ok so again all humans aren't "free" of sin upon birth and are thus born sinners correct?
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Rejecting original sin
- Thread starter Vendetta
- Start date
Ok so again all humans aren't "free" of sin upon birth and are thus born sinners correct?
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Well since its general I assumed they would see it
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Since Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind, why would God hold you and me accountable for something someone else did? Wouldn't Christ's Atonement have covered Adam's sin (eating the forbidden fruit), too?
ZooGirl02
Well-Known Member
I think the Eastern Orthodox reject the concept of original sin. As far as other Christian denominations, I am not sure. Personally, I reject the idea of original sin as well. I really don't think that a just and merciful God would punish a person's descendents for their ancestor's sins.
YoungChristian88
New Member
We all fall short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23) and all of our deeds are like fithly rags in the sight of God(Isaiah 64:6). Christ atonement on the cross was for all sin committed by man, BUT we must believe in the atonement. There are many who say that because they are good people they are destined to heaven, but really its by faith we are saved and our lifes hold testament to that faith. Faith in the only son of the Father who died willingly on the cross for sin.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Perhaps the fault lies in how many perceive as to what the Original Sin was?
The Original Sin as Jung saw so clearly, as the tradition of the Fall from the Garden of Eden' is an archetype. The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic.
We are all descended from males of the carnivorous lycanthropic variety, a mutation evolved under the pressure of hunger caused by the climatic change at the end of the pluvial period, which induced indiscriminate, even cannibalistic predatory aggression, culminating in the rape and sometimes even in the devouring of the females of the original peaceful fruit-eating bon sauvage remaining in the primeval virgin forests.
It was the 'clothes of skin' and the 'aprons of fig-leaves', that produced the nakedness of man, and not the other way round, the urge to cover man's nudity that led to the invention of clothing. It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.
The uncovered body could not have been considered 'indecorous' or 'im-moral'.
The very feeling of sin, the consciousness of having done something 'im-moral', contrary to the mores, customs or habits of the herd, could not be experienced before a part of the herd had wrenched itself free from the inherited behaviour-pattern and radically changed its way of life from that of a frugivorous to that of a carnivorous or omnivorous animal.
- from a lecture delivered at a meeting of the Royal Society of Medicine by ROBERT EISLER - First published in 1951 by Routledge and Kegan Paul Limited Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, London, B.C.4
Printed in Great Britain by Butler and Tanner Limited Frome and London
The Original Sin as Jung saw so clearly, as the tradition of the Fall from the Garden of Eden' is an archetype. The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic.
We are all descended from males of the carnivorous lycanthropic variety, a mutation evolved under the pressure of hunger caused by the climatic change at the end of the pluvial period, which induced indiscriminate, even cannibalistic predatory aggression, culminating in the rape and sometimes even in the devouring of the females of the original peaceful fruit-eating bon sauvage remaining in the primeval virgin forests.
It was the 'clothes of skin' and the 'aprons of fig-leaves', that produced the nakedness of man, and not the other way round, the urge to cover man's nudity that led to the invention of clothing. It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.
The uncovered body could not have been considered 'indecorous' or 'im-moral'.
The very feeling of sin, the consciousness of having done something 'im-moral', contrary to the mores, customs or habits of the herd, could not be experienced before a part of the herd had wrenched itself free from the inherited behaviour-pattern and radically changed its way of life from that of a frugivorous to that of a carnivorous or omnivorous animal.
- from a lecture delivered at a meeting of the Royal Society of Medicine by ROBERT EISLER - First published in 1951 by Routledge and Kegan Paul Limited Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, London, B.C.4
Printed in Great Britain by Butler and Tanner Limited Frome and London
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The only thing in your post that I would take issue with is the fact that you didn't answer my question. I totally believe that I must have faith in Christ in order for His Atonement to be operative in my life. I also believe that I must repent of my sins. What I don't believe is that I will be held accountable for someone else's sins. What kind of God would condemn me for something I didn't do?
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Well, wouldn't that be the Abrahamic god? :angel2:
not yet now
Member
some bible passages on the origin of spiritual rebellion
as not beginning with adam of adam and eve
that adam was the 3rd metioned adam in genesis...
and that adam was the one that in the king james was said to be FORMED..
the other 2
were in genesis chapter one
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
READ IN THE ABOVE 2 VERSES FOR MAN
WHAT IT SAYS IN HEBREW ..ADAM...
THESE 2 ADAMS WERE EARLIER FAILED ATTEMPTS AT SALVATION..
AND APPLY TO ALL HUMANITY
the formed adam
was differerent in several regards
THO ON ONE LEVEL IT MEANT A NEW TYPE OF BODY FOR ALL OF HUMANITY
TOO
it was a particular individual WHO WOULD PROVIDE THRU HIS WORK THRU HISTORY
UNIVERSAL SALVATION FOR ALL THRU a needed adjustment to the salvation plan
said formed adam was an incarnation of jesus
who had 30 incarnation according to the american psychic edgar cayce
..the last one mentioned in the bible is a high priest
who is spoken of as having all his sins removed
and being thus ready in some future incarnation
to being born without sin and being the messiah
who would by that lifetime
be able to offer universal salvation to all humanity...
THE PASSAGE I AM REFERING TO ABOUT SAID HIGH PRIEST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
ARE...
Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 6:10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;
Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Zec 6:14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.
Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
AND
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
UHOH I MIGHT BE RUNNING OUT OF SPACE IN THIS POST...
I WISH THERE WAS A CHARACTER COUNT TO LET ME KNOW
but i will continue about now
how the greek in the new testament does not say that we became sinners
with said formed adam..
Rom 5:12 For this reason, as through one man sin came into the world, and death because of sin, and so death came to all men, because all have done evil:
WHICH DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY SINNED IN ADAM
BUT IT COULD BE THAT DEATH PASSED TO ALL HUMANITY THRU THE SIN OF ADAM
BECAUSE ALL HUMANITY WAS ALREADY IN A STATE OF SIN...
NOW a bit about what the bible says how sin originated
Rom 1:20 For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing:
Rom 1:21 Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark.
Rom 1:22 Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish,
Rom 1:23 And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth.
Rom 1:24 For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another:
Rom 1:25 Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural:
Rom 1:27 And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing.
Rom 1:28 And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right;
ALSO IN ROMANS CHAPTER 5
WHERE THE GREEK DOES NOT NECESSARILY SAY SIN BEGAN WITH ADAM..
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
I WILL LEAVE PERHAPS FOR NOW
for whomever desires to look up the greek
HOW THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS CONSTITUTED
DOES NOT NECESSARILY THE BEGINNING OF SIN
BUT A CHANGE IN THE NATURE OF AN ALREADY EXISTING STATE...
SIGH I AM PROBABLY OVER MY LIMIT OF CHARACTERS....
hey hey hey
i think i made it
NOT OVER MY LIMIT OF CHARACTERS FOR ONE POST
as not beginning with adam of adam and eve
that adam was the 3rd metioned adam in genesis...
and that adam was the one that in the king james was said to be FORMED..
the other 2
were in genesis chapter one
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
READ IN THE ABOVE 2 VERSES FOR MAN
WHAT IT SAYS IN HEBREW ..ADAM...
THESE 2 ADAMS WERE EARLIER FAILED ATTEMPTS AT SALVATION..
AND APPLY TO ALL HUMANITY
the formed adam
was differerent in several regards
THO ON ONE LEVEL IT MEANT A NEW TYPE OF BODY FOR ALL OF HUMANITY
TOO
it was a particular individual WHO WOULD PROVIDE THRU HIS WORK THRU HISTORY
UNIVERSAL SALVATION FOR ALL THRU a needed adjustment to the salvation plan
said formed adam was an incarnation of jesus
who had 30 incarnation according to the american psychic edgar cayce
..the last one mentioned in the bible is a high priest
who is spoken of as having all his sins removed
and being thus ready in some future incarnation
to being born without sin and being the messiah
who would by that lifetime
be able to offer universal salvation to all humanity...
THE PASSAGE I AM REFERING TO ABOUT SAID HIGH PRIEST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
ARE...
Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 6:10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;
Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Zec 6:14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.
Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
AND
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
UHOH I MIGHT BE RUNNING OUT OF SPACE IN THIS POST...
I WISH THERE WAS A CHARACTER COUNT TO LET ME KNOW
but i will continue about now
how the greek in the new testament does not say that we became sinners
with said formed adam..
Rom 5:12 For this reason, as through one man sin came into the world, and death because of sin, and so death came to all men, because all have done evil:
WHICH DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY SINNED IN ADAM
BUT IT COULD BE THAT DEATH PASSED TO ALL HUMANITY THRU THE SIN OF ADAM
BECAUSE ALL HUMANITY WAS ALREADY IN A STATE OF SIN...
NOW a bit about what the bible says how sin originated
Rom 1:20 For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing:
Rom 1:21 Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark.
Rom 1:22 Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish,
Rom 1:23 And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth.
Rom 1:24 For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another:
Rom 1:25 Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural:
Rom 1:27 And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing.
Rom 1:28 And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right;
ALSO IN ROMANS CHAPTER 5
WHERE THE GREEK DOES NOT NECESSARILY SAY SIN BEGAN WITH ADAM..
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
I WILL LEAVE PERHAPS FOR NOW
for whomever desires to look up the greek
HOW THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS CONSTITUTED
DOES NOT NECESSARILY THE BEGINNING OF SIN
BUT A CHANGE IN THE NATURE OF AN ALREADY EXISTING STATE...
SIGH I AM PROBABLY OVER MY LIMIT OF CHARACTERS....
hey hey hey
i think i made it
NOT OVER MY LIMIT OF CHARACTERS FOR ONE POST
Last edited:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No, it wouldn't be. The Abrahamic God wouldn't even think of doing that. Unfortunately a lot of Christians think He would.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
As I see it, it is that the human being is created in the image of God and this means that we are inherently related beings- after the Trinity.
More specifically, we are analogous to the Son, meaning each of us is born of what precedes us (though the Son is begotten and eternal) and are oriented towards "the other" (like the Son lives for the will of the Father in the Spirit).
Made after Christ, we only find self-fulfillment when we are able to "give ourselves away" that is, when we realize that our "true self" is not found in immediate gratifications or even in an ongoing quest for the "authentic me". Rather, that this "authentic" self appears when we can set ourselves aside. The "real self" is found in the face of others, not in the mirror.
This is why Christians are most exhorted to agape , to a certain kind of love. This is the same love which the Father has for the Son, the Son for the Father and both together in the Holy Spirit proceeding from them.
I guess my point is that, in the Trinity, we see each Divine Person "setting himself aside", so to speak, and from this is constituted the well-spring of divine love on which the entire universe is graciously made.
So the idea is that if I, made after the image of this Divine life, am not self enclosed but really am an open sort of being who must pass through others and let others pass through me, then love is not some superficial thing that can be contained within my own little world, not even just between myself and my family or my beloved. Like God (in fact, coming from God) it overflows.
But if we are willing to admit that human beings are fundamentally "open", that is, not enclosed, and that the true self is not found secretly waiting inside us, but rather "out there" in the faces of others, then neither can sin be a self-contained, private affair.
When the First Parents sinned, they introduced sin into the Body of humanity, and they were unable to contain it simply within themselves- because it is not human nature that we are self-contained beings. So even when we act selfishly, its effects spill over and beyond us.
In simpler terms, we are all "in this" together, this adventure of the world. When the Islamic scriptures say that "to kill one man is akin to murdering all of humanity" , I think the Qu'ran has happened upon a Trinitarian truth. In a certain way, we all exist in each other. Just like where the Spirit is, so is the Son and, in the Son, the Father.
I think sin does not destroy this principle of our relatedness, but rather perverts it. So Christ became a human individual so that he might become diffusive and "spread", as it were, from one person to the next. In the way that sin "trickled down" from the First Parents into the whole human race, their progeny, Christ entered the Virgin and must now trickle down into the whole human race. We must become her progeny.
Thus, in baptism, we take God as our Father, Christ as our brother and the Church as our Mother. No Christian can be a Christian alone, he must enter into a family. No person can be saved alone, he must enter into a family.
More specifically, we are analogous to the Son, meaning each of us is born of what precedes us (though the Son is begotten and eternal) and are oriented towards "the other" (like the Son lives for the will of the Father in the Spirit).
Made after Christ, we only find self-fulfillment when we are able to "give ourselves away" that is, when we realize that our "true self" is not found in immediate gratifications or even in an ongoing quest for the "authentic me". Rather, that this "authentic" self appears when we can set ourselves aside. The "real self" is found in the face of others, not in the mirror.
This is why Christians are most exhorted to agape , to a certain kind of love. This is the same love which the Father has for the Son, the Son for the Father and both together in the Holy Spirit proceeding from them.
I guess my point is that, in the Trinity, we see each Divine Person "setting himself aside", so to speak, and from this is constituted the well-spring of divine love on which the entire universe is graciously made.
So the idea is that if I, made after the image of this Divine life, am not self enclosed but really am an open sort of being who must pass through others and let others pass through me, then love is not some superficial thing that can be contained within my own little world, not even just between myself and my family or my beloved. Like God (in fact, coming from God) it overflows.
But if we are willing to admit that human beings are fundamentally "open", that is, not enclosed, and that the true self is not found secretly waiting inside us, but rather "out there" in the faces of others, then neither can sin be a self-contained, private affair.
When the First Parents sinned, they introduced sin into the Body of humanity, and they were unable to contain it simply within themselves- because it is not human nature that we are self-contained beings. So even when we act selfishly, its effects spill over and beyond us.
In simpler terms, we are all "in this" together, this adventure of the world. When the Islamic scriptures say that "to kill one man is akin to murdering all of humanity" , I think the Qu'ran has happened upon a Trinitarian truth. In a certain way, we all exist in each other. Just like where the Spirit is, so is the Son and, in the Son, the Father.
I think sin does not destroy this principle of our relatedness, but rather perverts it. So Christ became a human individual so that he might become diffusive and "spread", as it were, from one person to the next. In the way that sin "trickled down" from the First Parents into the whole human race, their progeny, Christ entered the Virgin and must now trickle down into the whole human race. We must become her progeny.
Thus, in baptism, we take God as our Father, Christ as our brother and the Church as our Mother. No Christian can be a Christian alone, he must enter into a family. No person can be saved alone, he must enter into a family.
Last edited:
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
So according to LDS is there any concept of atonement for mankind?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm sure you knew exactly what you meant by this question, but I'm kind of foggy on what you were getting at. Could you maybe rephrase that?
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Well, if memory serves me right, jesus died for the sins of mankind, the sins of our earliest parents. At least growing up in baptist christian church that is what was taught. So if not for mankind was Jesus' existence on earth according to LDS similar to the baptist christian view? If this is unclear tell me...sorry if it wasn't before.
I know your view on original sin I am just curious on your view on atonement.
It appears that a view of what the doctrine of Original Sin actually is would be helpful...
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall
I would explain that I don't believe God punishes people for doing nothing but being born.Katz said:
That is, essentially, the doctrine of Original Sin.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I believe that Jesus' Atonement accomplished two things. (1) It made it possible for every human being who ever lived to be resurrected and return to Heaven someday. (2) It made it possible for those who recognize their need for a Savior and who acknowledge Him to be that individual to be forgiven for their own sins without having to bear the punishment for them if they repent of them and do their best to live according to His commandments. Those who are unwilling to accept His sacrifice and acknowledge His role in God's plan will also be allowed into Heaven. They will, however, have to be punished for their sins before they can be forgiven for them. That's it in a nutshell, and I do mean a very small nutshell.
Original sin? There is but one missing of the sign of god and that is caused by the idea that you know the difference between good and evil. God is not arbitrary in judgment.
In truth good is not a variable phenomena, only god is good. Or only reality is real.
Reality does not come in different flavors of suitability. The only thing that can be threatened are our illusions. Judgment distorts our perceptions of the world that god created, causing one to react as though god were not in the world.
In truth good is not a variable phenomena, only god is good. Or only reality is real.
Reality does not come in different flavors of suitability. The only thing that can be threatened are our illusions. Judgment distorts our perceptions of the world that god created, causing one to react as though god were not in the world.
What are you interested in?
PhAA
Grand Master
Still, why should Adam's unholiness be passed to us? And if Christ died for the sins of man, why is there still an Original Sin?