Religion and Socialism

[metis]

Historically it is claimed that states and taxation was to have better armies.

Actually, the roots go much further back as we know from the fossil evidence that early HS and Neanderthal also relied on each other for help for those unable to take care of themselves, and we even see this within the ape line. Yes, they didn't use money, but money is just an IOU.

 

[F1fan]

1. If people were taxed less they would have more to give.

Nonsense. They would likley spend more on commercial products as we saw with the Covid checks. They would pay down credit card debt, or other bills. Of course this is just the lower to middle class, the wealthy have pretty low tax rates as it is and still would have plenty at the end of the year to donate. They don't donante more with their tax savings, do they? How do you explain how the wealthy increased their wealth?

Billionaires saw their wealth grow by 62% during the pandemic, while workers' wages grew by 10%

The Trump tax cuts of 2017 helped the wealthy 83%, leaving the middle class the table scraps. The republicans were clever to give the middle class something, and that way they could hel the wealthy substantially. This resulted in a higher deficit as corporations just pocketed their extra money. Trump expected the corporations to invest it, and thus increasing the gdp. But that didn't happen. No one is going to invest as an obligation to the economy. Investment is a risk, and no one will invest unless there is a good chance for returns. So now with inflationary pressures on the USA, and other nations since it is global, those who have been struggling in our economy are struggling more. The wealthy are fine, they have plenty. So if you theists are relying on charity from the middle class it will be less likely. The middle class and poor need to take care of themselves in our predatory economic system, and giving to charity is one of the first things to go when costs go up.

Want to help people? Adjust taxes so the wealthy pay vastly more. I'd like to see an income tax rate that is zero up until about $50,000, because the cost of housing and other essentials are rising too fast for wages to meet. And put higher rates on thw wealthy, because they aren't royalty and aren't owed any charity forom society.

2. if we had a healthier society we would have a lot less disability. Much of our problems are the result of Childhood trauma. https://osg.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/266/2020/12/Cost-of-ACEs_CA_OSG-Report_12092020.pdf

Yes, our lack of socialized healthcare means very little mental health care. The Uvalde school killer was said to be suffering from mentali illness by Texas governor Greg Abbott, and this statment coming a month after cutting 211 million from mental health services in Texas.

Abbott blames 'mental health' for Uvalde shooting after cutting $211 million from mental health agency

Abbott gives us a good reason to NOT vote for republicans, because this is their social and fiscal philosophy, less government, and more of human nature taking its course. That means more violence, more suffering, more of society at the household level facing hardships as if they are feral animals.

Even YOU give us a reason to vote for democrats, because republicans are not going to invest in healthcare for society, especially not mental health. Republicans care more about their political ideals than they do the society they are hired to represent. Yes many in society are selfish and greedy and don;t want their tax dollars to go towards mental health of people they dont know. Churches don't have enough money to solve the problem. So you are either left to nor care about a solution, or recognize that we can't go on living with such disparity and we need to invest and love each other.

 

[F1fan]

All "socialistic" societies in today's world use a mixture of both.

Our theist friends like to blur the lines of precise meaning. How else can they believe what they want to believe?

I'm not sure if they underestimate their debate opponents, or are truly as confused as they appear.

 

[metis]

Our theist friends like to blur the lines of precise meaning. How else can they believe what they want to believe?

I'm not sure if they underestimate their debate opponents, or are truly as confused as they appear.

Frankly, since "socialism" is widely condemned in some of the right-wing media especially, it's just an updated version of McCarthy's Red Scare "Communism" charge using of stereotyping and demonizing.

 

[F1fan]

US does have a socialized medicine program called Medicare as well as Obamacare.

The ACA is still a system that requires a person to pay for insurance, so a luxury for many families thast can't afford it. Socialized healthcare is a system without a financial barrier. The USA still has a financial barrier. Even with government aid there is still serious financial burden of families if they have serious health problems, so no, we don;t have socialized zhealthcare. We have some programs (by liberals) that hel to some degree.

This happened last week in Fl.

Citation?

No, it is your viewpoint. Maybe true for you but not a categorical "true".

Ironic given you think your verision of God exists, right? Be careful not to set a high standard for truth when you are a believer.

Definitely your opinion. Too many "wrong" to address all .

As if you can't refute any of it.

Just to take one. We love helping immigrants. We just want it legal and controlled to where we can actually help immigrants and certainly vet them to make sure we aren't letting in people with ulterior motives.

OK, prove it by posting the republican position on immigration. And I take it you did not support the Trump administration's treatment of migrants, yes? Let's hear you say it.

Your position is so skewed as to show blindness in your viewpoints.

I don't trust your judgment, so I don't believe you. You offer no explanation, so meaningless statement.

 

[F1fan]

Frankly, since "socialism" is widely condemned in some of the right-wing media especially, it's just an updated version of McCarthy's Red Scare "Communism" charge using of stereotyping and demonizing.

What I notice is no alternative solutions to what "socialist" programs do for society. Republicans have a bad and lazy habit of believing that society should just run some natural and feral course. They want less of an organized goverment to help manage our social affairs and think this huge responsibility will be covered by the average citizen. But the average citizen is busy with work, kid's going to soccer practice, mowing the yard, and occassional down time, etc. The republicans seem to thjink that we should remove the government agencies and management tools, and society will fill in the gas as needed. This is terribly naive. Eliminate social security? Eliminate Medicare? Cut mental health care? Reduce gun access? The chaos would explode.

What would republicans then do? They would run on policies of more authoritarian control, more police, more prisions, more us versus them. pretty smart. But who really wants to be on the front lines of that poiltical experiment? No one who has a business.

So I really don't see any coherent republican platform. I see complaints about programs even they benefit from.

 

[Stevicus]

The republicans seem to thjink that we should remove the government agencies and management tools, and society will fill in the gas as needed. This is terribly naive. Eliminate social security? Eliminate Medicare? Cut mental health care? Reduce gun access? The chaos would explode.

I think it's consistent with the general trend of Republicans, conservatives, and capitalists overall wanting to return to the 19th century. That's also part of what pushed the drive towards outsourcing and free trade, since they couldn't have sweatshops in America. So they opened sweatshops overseas. Even Democrats and liberals went along with this.

Capitalists won't be happy until America has a plantation economy which depends solely on imports for manufactured goods.

This is the America that capitalists want:

 

[metis]

Even though it was a historical-fiction book, my favorite play, and then a movie, I think "Les Misérables" captured what all too often happened with capitalism with no safety net beyond charity. If one studies what happened during the Great Depression here in the States and internationally, this point is reemphasized.

 

[Kenny]

I’ve seen it on the international news (Aljazeera) and on my own county’s news stations over the last year in particular.
Usually it’s met with, oh those are just extremists types.
But it’s getting more and more frequent all the same.

Little disconcerting to be completely honest with you.
Speaking of disconcerting, didn’t that Q conspiracist lady (Marjorie Taylor Green) get an official government seat?
That lady makes even Pauline Hanson look sane and yet she’s a US government politician?!! That’s at least worthy of a yikes! Regardless of one’s political views

I'm not familiar with Ms Green. And, yes, extremism is getting worse... but it isn't a particular group of people that fit that category.

 

[Kenny]

All "socialistic" societies in today's world use a mixture of both.

Just be careful of the hand in the pocket and how much they want to "socialize" with

 

[Kenny]

The ACA is still a system that requires a person to pay for insurance, so a luxury for many families thast can't afford it. Socialized healthcare is a system without a financial barrier. The USA still has a financial barrier. Even with government aid there is still serious financial burden of families if they have serious health problems, so no, we don;t have socialized zhealthcare. We have some programs (by liberals) that hel to some degree.

Hmmm... it is still social. The only difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that instead of me paying the difference, they take it out of one's paycheck automatically. You still pay for it (unless you are unable to have income - so you qualify for Obamacare and Medicare anyway)

Citation?

Did you read what I just said? I said "It happened to me" while I was talking to my doctor. Did you want me to get a notarized copy of said conversation?

As if you can't refute any of it.

I did...

OK, prove it by posting the republican position on immigration. And I take it you did not support the Trump administration's treatment of migrants, yes? Let's hear you say it.

Only legal immigrants, through tightly controlled borders
The Republican Party supports reforming the immigration system to ensure that it is legal, safe, orderly and humane. It also supports measures to ensure that the immigration system is structured to address the needs of national security.

To better ensure that immigrants enter the United States only through legal means that allow for verification of their identity, reconnaissance cameras, border patrol agents, and unmanned aerial flights have all been increased at the border. In addition, Border Patrol agents now have sweeping new powers to deport illegal aliens without having first to go through the cumbersome process of allowing the illegal alien to have a hearing before an immigration judge. We support these efforts to enforce the law while welcoming immigrants who enter America through legal avenues.

Republican Party on Immigration

I don't support Obama's putting children in cages.

I don't trust your judgment, so I don't believe you. You offer no explanation, so meaningless statement.

You don't have to... it is blatantly obvious.

 

[idea]

1. If people were taxed less they would have more to give.

2. if we had a healthier society we would have a lot less disability. Much of our problems are the result of Childhood trauma. https://osg.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/266/2020/12/Cost-of-ACEs_CA_OSG-Report_12092020.pdf

The childhood trauma in our family was created by abuse in church - that church leader is now in jail for the rest of their life, and we no longer attend any worship service as church is triggering for our children. Thank God for state appointed detectives, and government organizations for putting that priest in jail. Without government help, we would still be hiding from that pedophile.

I pay my taxes, consider it money well spent.

 

[Truth in love]

The childhood trauma in our family was created by abuse in church - that church leader is now in jail for the rest of their life, and we no longer attend any worship service as church is triggering for our children. Thank God for state appointed detectives, and government organizations for putting that priest in jail. Without government help, we would still be hiding from that pedophile.

And that is very much what government should do. We need a system to protect us in our rights. The rest they should stay out of.

 

[metis]

Just be careful of the hand in the pocket and how much they want to "socialize" with

That actually happened to my father when he & Mom were somewhere in Europe. He made VERY sure he told us this, btw. Hey, he was half of where my tremendously great looks came from.

 

[1213]

In Hinduism many of the kings were socialists. ....

I have heard that socialism, or should be classless society. If so, it can't have a king. But maybe my definition for socialism is outdated.

 

[1213]

First, Jesus is an absent king (note Christians are waiting for a second coming) ... ...You are referring to communism, not socialism. Even in communism people were allowed to own things, so not an accurate statement on your part.

Jesus is the king, even if he is not on earth, at least for me.

And my old dictionary from 1984 says that socialism is basically the same as communism, phase before full communism.

 

[metis]

And my old dictionary from 1984 says that socialism is basically the same as communism,

That's not how it's used today: Socialism - Wikipedia

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm not family with Ms Green. And, yes, extremism is getting worse... but it isn't a particular group of people that fit that category.

I’d argue it’s the hardcore MAGAs who do. Not all, just to make that clear. I’m not trying to generalise or point fingers. Really I’m not.
I’m talking about the very extreme subsection of them. They’re on Tik Tok begging for a civil war. I’ve been watching reactions to them lately. It’s been errr interesting, let’s just put it that way. Though I suppose I don’t know if they’ll do anything at this point. It seems it’s just a chance for them to vent all their frustrations. So eh, I guess you’re right

 

[Kenny]

I’d argue it’s the hardcore MAGAs who do. Not all, just to make that clear. I’m not trying to generalise or point fingers. Really I’m not.
I’m talking about the very extreme subsection of them. They’re on Tik Tok begging for a civil war. I’ve been watching reactions to them lately. It’s been errr interesting, let’s just put it that way. Though I suppose I don’t know if they’ll do anything at this point. It seems it’s just a chance for them to vent all their frustrations. So eh, I guess you’re right

I certainly cannot speak for them, I assume that your statement has truth. But wasn't it the left leaning that destroyed blocks and business in the name of Black Lives Matter et al?

 

[SomeRandom]

I certainly cannot speak for them, I assume that your statement has truth. But wasn't it the left leaning that destroyed blocks and business in the name of Black Lives Matter et al?

Destroying businesses is bad. But property can be rebuilt. Hopefully the owners have insurance and can be compensated.

Wanting to overturn elections and wanting civil war is quite a bit worse in my view. Not to mention that Jan 6 “incident.” I saw that live, not on the news but live-streamed by the very people storming the place
MAGA extremists still come out looking worse