• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Religion and works

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
True dat. Good point.

My conversation with Mr. Cheese is over unless he can intelligently state in his own words what Buddhism is and what the four noble truths are.

You're alright Yosef :)

the four noble truths are irrelivant..as Buddha taught that we can do what we like and shove unfried shrimp into our nostrils....

I fail to see what the four noble truths have to do with a kettle of fish as a "LHP Buddhist" you feel yopu can reject or embrace them or twist them at your leisure...

LHP whatever shade of purple green and blue is all about self empowerment...
you can pretend otherwise if you like. As such...LHP and Buddhism simply arent compatible....

but heck, I've met LHP Sufis online.... at least though the sufi have a djinn tradition, so it could be feasible, although the whole premise of Sufism is to be lost.. so once again its like smoking crack and saying I am a green goblin from Mars...and a Taoist...so there...

up to you:shrug:

:sarcasticlet me guess, you arent LHP anymore?
 
the four noble truths are irrelivant..as Buddha taught that we can do what we like and shove unfried shrimp into our nostrils....


Nowhere do I state that I mix Theravada Buddhism with the lhp. All it takes is a little research on Theravada Buddhism to figure out that my apprehension of Theradava Buddhism as I have presented it in the Dharma forum does not deviate from 'orthodoxy.'

I do post in the lhp forum, but I stick to a single thread, the ONA thread where I answer people's questions. You would gain a more better account of how I see the lhp if you would actually read the thread.

But like I said, the lhp and how it relates to me has nothing to do with the ORIGINAL TOPIC. The original topic was the four noble truths, how you may have misunderstood it, and how I reject the English translations. Then you opened a debate. Now you change the subject.

"the four noble truths are irrelivant"

That's actually spelled: irrelevant. But thank you for stating your position.

"as Buddha taught that we can do what we like"

I'm sure he did in some schools of Buddhism. You fail to understand that the three Vehicles of Buddhism are very different and are based on their own different set of scriptures. Thus, what the Buddha may have said or taught in one tradition, may not be recognized in another.

Nowhere in Theravada Buddhism does Buddha teach that we can do what we like. I only speak for Theravada.


"as Buddha taught that we can do what we like" - Mr. Cheese

"Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!" - LaVey & Church of Satan

"Do What Thou Wilt..." - Crowley & Thelema
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]


[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Nowhere do I state that I mix Theravada Buddhism with the lhp. All it takes is a little research on Theravada Buddhism to figure out that my apprehension of Theradava Buddhism as I have presented it in the Dharma forum does not deviate from 'orthodoxy.'

I do post in the lhp forum, but I stick to a single thread, the ONA thread where I answer people's questions. You would gain a more better account of how I see the lhp if you would actually read the thread.

But like I said, the lhp and how it relates to me has nothing to do with the ORIGINAL TOPIC. The original topic was the four noble truths, how you may have misunderstood it, and how I reject the English translations. Then you opened a debate. Now you change the subject.

"the four noble truths are irrelivant"

That's actually spelled: irrelevant. But thank you for stating your position.

"as Buddha taught that we can do what we like"

I'm sure he did in some schools of Buddhism. You fail to understand that the three Vehicles of Buddhism are very different and are based on their own different set of scriptures. Thus, what the Buddha may have said or taught in one tradition, may not be recognized in another.

Nowhere in Theravada Buddhism does Buddha teach that we can do what we like. I only speak for Theravada.


"as Buddha taught that we can do what we like" - Mr. Cheese

"Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!" - LaVey & Church of Satan

"Do What Thou Wilt..." - Crowley & Thelema

marvellous.....

thanks for sharing....

..................

Moriarty: I should risk my life for an egg and a nest?
Officer 2: Chickens do it all the time!

--the goon show
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I don't think any school of Buddhism says the Buddha taught we can do whatever we like. The Buddha taught that one should strive to care for all living things and spend our life easing the suffering of everyone.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I don't think any school of Buddhism says the Buddha taught we can do whatever we like. The Buddha taught that one should strive to care for all living things and spend our life easing the suffering of everyone.

yet suga claimed we can reject anythign and everything...
because Buddha said so...
in effect..saying we can do what we like....

:sarcastic what other conclusion can there be if we simply reject everythign when we want, because we want to....? Obviously there is more to it than that, but I would argue that is what suga was proclaiming.... I fail to see how one could mix the ideas of the LHOP with theredava buddhism in any other way
 
:p et tu brute...

still its not Theravada buddhism...which suga claimed to be and LHP, in the "why LHP" thread....

shrug..

but perhaps we should discuss the actual thread's topic? lol

Rather than present data you resort to putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting me to make yourself look right somehow.

You first said that rejecting the four noble truths is impossible for a Buddhist.

I said it is possible due to mistranslations and the misunderstandings arising from such mistranslations.

You then state that the four noble truths are irrelevant, and that the Buddha taught that we can do whatever we want.

I pointed out that the Buddha never taught that we can do whatever we want, and I showed you how your misunderstanding of Buddhism resembles the basic principle of the Church of Satan and Crowley and Thelema... which you stated earlier that Buddhism and the LHP were incompatible.

Yosef now says that no such school of Buddhism teaches that you can do what you want.

You states that the LHP and Buddhism are incompatible.

Somebody pointed out that they were, and that such lhp Buddhist sects do exist which contradicts your statement you made founded on assumptions.

You really have nothing to work with but assumptions and misunderstandings.
 
yet suga claimed we can reject anythign and everything...
because Buddha said so...
in effect..saying we can do what we like....

I said in this very same thread I reject the four noble truths on account of mistranslations and misunderstandings. Nowhere did I say or claim that "we can reject anythign[sic] and everything... because Buddha said so."

You need to stop putting words into other people's mouths.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Rather than present data you resort to putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting me to make yourself look right somehow.

You first said that rejecting the four noble truths is impossible for a Buddhist.

I said it is possible due to mistranslations and the misunderstandings arising from such mistranslations.

You then state that the four noble truths are irrelevant, and that the Buddha taught that we can do whatever we want.

I pointed out that the Buddha never taught that we can do whatever we want, and I showed you how your misunderstanding of Buddhism resembles the basic principle of the Church of Satan and Crowley and Thelema... which you stated earlier that Buddhism and the LHP were incompatible.

Yosef now says that no such school of Buddhism teaches that you can do what you want.

You states that the LHP and Buddhism are incompatible.

Somebody pointed out that they were, and that such lhp Buddhist sects do exist which contradicts your statement you made founded on assumptions.

You really have nothing to work with but assumptions and misunderstandings.

I mentioned putting shrimp in orafices too...

:p you take things too seriously
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Yes... I heard urine has many medical properties... no wonder LHP girls are sexier than RHP girls! As a person who walks a LHP I make it a daily observance to eat my Satan recommended daily serving of feces lol. But seriously.

I did not know that Theravada Buddhism had a LHP could you tell us the back ground on this path.

I will do something better and will teach you how to think for yourself instead of asking others for answers to questions you have.

You express confusion. There is a source of this confusion. That source is inside of you. The source of that confusion are your own inner convictions and interpretations of things. Such that when you encounter someone or something that do not agree with your personal apprehension of things, you become confused.

The first thing I would like you to do is to write as best as you can what exactly you BELIEVE Theravada Buddhism to be since you are an expert in such.

Secondly I would like you to write as best as you can what exactly you BELIEVE the Left Hand Path to be since you are and expert on such.

Thirdly I would like you to ask yourself the following questions and to write down the answers for me here:

1. Does SugaCubez BELIEVE as I do?
2. Does SugaCubez understand Therevada Buddhism and the LHP as I do?
3. Should SugaCubez be a Theravada Buddhist as I believe it to be?
4. Is it possible for other people outside of myself to know and understand thing different for me?
5. Is my apprehension of what Theravada Buddhism and the LHP the ONLY correct understanding of such?

Next, after you have answered your own questions, and you still desire to understand how I see things, if you are genuinely interested in me and how I believe, then I have left 59 posts here. You have the liberty at any time to begin reading ALL of them to begin to learn just how I personally see things.

When you have done all of this, and things still do not make sense to you then come to me and ask again.

Thinking for ourselves is very hard... especially when you are so used to having a religion and gurus think for you. With the steps I have provided, even you will have the rewarding experience of thinking for yourself... and perhaps even learn to empathize with other to understand them and how they see things.


:facepalm: I just made this up....:sarcastic
 
:facepalm: I just made this up....:sarcastic

You're really fixated on this aren't you? You are just determined to change the subject aren't you?

We were talking about me rejecting the four noble truths.

You said that it was impossible.

I said it was possible on account of mistranslations and misunderstandings in English.

After that you have been playing games.

My first statement you quoted was me being sarcastic. I actually don't eat feces. I was making fun of assumptions people have of the Aghori (a lhp sect).

My second quote you quoted still stands. I asked you (and others) questions which you never answered. The answered would have helped you understand things better on your own.

The lhp and Theravada is NOT what me and you were debating on. Stop changing the subject and try to stick with one. Nowhere in those quote did I state that I mix what I understand to be the lhp with my Buddhism. I already pointed out that if you would just learn to google that my Theravada is very orthodox.

Being knowledgeable in two different subjects/fields does not imply or mean that the two fields are merged and mixed.

We are talking about your - now apparent - grossly misunderstood apprehension of Buddhism due to you depending solely on inaccurate English translations of the original Pali.
 
Last edited:

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I have never known any school that says you can go through life wrecklessly, not caring about how your actions effect others. In Buddhism there is no, "let the pieces fall where they may", you are supposed to be ever mindful. Mindfulness is a universal virtue of Buddhism
 

LoTrobador

Active Member
:p et tu brute...

Me paenitet. ;)

still its not Theravada buddhism...which suga claimed to be and LHP, in the "why LHP" thread....

Well, I don't see such claim (that Theravada is LHP) made by her; on the other hand, I don't think it would be impossible or inconsistent for Theravadin groups or individuals to adapt LHP (as understood in pre-XIXth century Asian cultures) practices (thus effectively creating LHP Theravada). But that could be a discussion for another thread. :)
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
You're really fixated on this aren't you? You are just determined to change the subject aren't you?

We were talking about me rejecting the four noble truths.

You said that it was impossible.

I said it was possible on account of mistranslations and misunderstandings in English.

After that you have been playing games.

My first statement you quoted was me being sarcastic. I actually don't eat feces. I was making fun of assumptions people have of the Aghori (a lhp sect).

My second quote you quoted still stands. I asked you (and others) questions which you never answered. The answered would have helped you understand things better on your own.

The lhp and Theravada is NOT what me and you were debating on. Stop changing the subject and try to stick with one. Nowhere in those quote did I state that I mix what I understand to be the lhp with my Buddhism. I already pointed out that if you would just learn to google that my Theravada is very orthodox.

Being knowledgeable in two different subjects/fields does not imply or mean that the two fields are merged and mixed.

We are talking about your - now apparent - grossly misunderstood apprehension of Buddhism due to you depending solely on inaccurate English translations of the original Pali.

I wasnt debating anything...

for some reason you assumed we were

I'm just waiting till I can go home and stroke my cat

If you want a fight...fight away....

I could care less.

Shockingly this thread is actually about works and faith...
not prove who has the bigger Buddhist penis or stick....

So you dont mix lhp and buddhism or you do...who cares at this point....?
not I......you seem very angry and upset, so I'll say "I'm stoooooopid"

and there magically you have won

T%20-%20Anyone%20for%20tennis.jpg


anyone for tennis?
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I for one don't think Buddhism and LHP are compatable. I'm not even sure Buddhism and RHP are entirely compatable. Buddhism doesn't have these dualistic notions of one way or the other, it's a lot more of what's appropriate at the present moment. There is no sin in Buddhism, there is right actions and wrongful actions, and these can change based on the situation.
 

LoTrobador

Active Member
I said it was possible on account of mistranslations and misunderstandings in English.

I'm currently learning Pāli, but until I'm able to read and comprehend the original writings - are there some English translations of Tipitaka that you personally could recommend as highly accurate?
 
I'm currently learning Pāli, but until I'm able to read and comprehend the original writings - are there some English translations of Tipitaka that you personally could recommend as highly accurate?

Hi Lo,

There are a lot of very good translations of the Tipitikas in English. Most of the good ones are actually translated by Westerners. I think this is partly because when an Asian person (even if they are Bhikkhus) translates certain Pali words into English, that they might not always understand or grasp the idiomatic quality/feel of English words.

I’ll give you two links which has vast libraries of books from the Tipikas. One of the links presents these books side by side with various other translations. I don’t want you or other to think that I am some linguistic expert on Pali and Buddhist text translations. I know some Pali, and if I come across a word or a phrase or teaching that I find confusing I am fortunate enough to have elders in my family who are Bhikkhus and Bhikkunis to help me out.

The translations of words in itself is not the biggest cause of misunderstandings of Buddhism as Buddhism is generically apprehended as in the West though. My biggest contention is how Buddhism is presented.

Generically in the West, Buddhism is initially presented completely out of memetic context to 99% of the rest of Buddhism. By this I mean that when we in the West try to learn about Buddhism we often encounter this:

The Four Noble Truths
1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

Taking a meme or set of memes out of its memetic matrix causes confusion, and misunderstanding in the same sense that a detective or forensics specialist won’t know crap about a crime if they take evidence out of the crime scene and just look at the evidence outside of its environmental matrix. Everything goes together and must be apprehended in context together.


By matrix I mean it in a paleontological use of the word. A matrix is the dirt, matter, and artifacts that surrounds a bone. When you as a paleontologist are digging up a dinosaur, you can’t remove the bone and study it separately without considering the dirty, matter, and artifacts around the bone… which contains 90% of the actual data of how the dinosaur lived, what environment it lived in, what it ate, and so on.


For example, if we dug a dinosaur out of the ground, and completely disregarded and dirty and ground it came from, and we just admired our reconstructed dinosaur in some museum, our Minds would be prone to creating illusions about how the dinosaur looked, lived, ate, and stuff. The same thing can happen to Buddhism and any religion. It must be apprehended in context to its native space-time matrix (~500BC for Buddhism), its lingual matrix, and the social matrix it evolved in (Asia for Buddhism)… if we are to fully understand Buddhism and its worldview. The worldview is important, because the Buddha, and Buddhism did not develop in our modern 21st century. The world of 500BC, and concepts of “suffering” of people during those times and in those places cannot be assumed to be the “suffering” we today are experiencing.


For example, back then if the monsoons did not come, you would suffer from Dukkha (unpleasantness) because you worried (Dukkha) about what you and your family will eat, and if conditions are really bad, you will suffer Papa (misery) and die of starvation. Today (in the West at least) we can buy a burger or a taco for a dollar at a fast food joint. The worries of Buddhists today is more sophisticated. Such as the Dukkha Buddhists are experiencing in Burma and Tibet due to political oppression, you see? Things must be always apprehended in context.


When Buddhism is generically presented in such a watered down condition as to be a meager 4 power points as opposed to the 24,000 pages of the Tipitikas… there will be misunderstandings arising.


For example from those four noble truths. The first noble truth seems pessimistic. Suffering bunches up misery, death, famine, war, and breaking up with your boyfriends all into some Abstract word: “Suffering.” The last noble truth makes it seem as if Buddhism is the answer to destroy this Abstract Suffering. And from this people will begin to construct a picture of Buddhism in their mind, such that what a Westerner eventually believes to be Buddhism… is not what Buddhism is in the Orient.


Buddhism is not the answer to the world’s suffering or to your own suffering in life. You/we are the cause and the answer. The Buddha is not a religious prophet. He is not honored because he teaches quaint moral precepts. He is honored as the Enlightened One because he achieved Sama Sambudhi – Self Enlightenment – and that he presented a workable Methodology for others to achieve the same Sama Sambudhi – Self Enlightenment – if we followed his foots steps and example by trying to duplicate his efforts.


The Buddha did not read the Tipitikas to gain Sama Sambudhi. Sama Sambudhi is actually redundant, it basically means “The Self Enlightening itSelf,” or “The Selfenlightened Self.” Therefore, if we assume that by studying the written word that we will also achieve Sambudhi, we are wrong. This will only cause our Minds to be lost in the written word which itself is a distraction from one Self and the foundation of Sambudhi: Life and Nature… Vibhajjavada, the apprehension of insights from direct exposure to life and experience. And Vipassana – the insightful meditation whereby we extract insight from within our own Self based on such experiences in Life, and such direct observations of Nature and Life. The Tipitikas should only be a road map of sorts, and not made into the essence of Sambudhi. Learning Pali is a great endeavor, but understanding Pali words should only be a guide to help understand certain things better.


***part1***
 
Last edited:
***part2***

The way the “four noble truths” are originally presented in the Tipitikas is more better. The book (I’ll provide a link) first does not power point. You will see that first the book speaks of the Middle Path being in between two extremes. Then each of the noble truths is presented in Context to the idea/meme of the Middle Path. Which in other parts of the Tipitikas, it is explained that the Middle Path is a path of Moderation and Intelligent Control, not one of extreme abstinence or extreme wreckless indulgence.


The four noble truths truth; or rather mortal existence; in Buddhism is not just dependent on the four noble truths. In context, mortal existence is a mere aspect of the Whole Bhavachakka (Wheel of Becoming), in which our own world/cosmos is but one of 31 other realms.


Our world is the lowest of 7 Bhumis called collectively the Kamasugati. Kama meaning Sensual Delight, and Sugati (Sukkhati) meaning Pleasentness or Happiness. Sukkha being the etymological opposite of the word Dukkha. Life, as Buddhism is seen in context to the Bhavachakka, for we Manussa in this Kamasugati was Intended to be somewhat pleasurable. Therefore, if you/we are experiencing Dukkha (Unpleasantness) in Life, then we are not Living life correctly.


Thus the Buddha explains what causes Dukkha in our lives, with the intent on helping us learn to experience Life as it was intended to be experienced. Not as a realm of woe, misery, and suffering (this belongs in the Apayabhumis); but as a delightful experience.


The way Buddhism is presented, in such power point format, and with such use of words as “Life is Suffering” with out explanation makes Buddhism feel gloomy and pessimistic. Suffering seems abstract like “sin” is to Christianity; when the word Dukkha merely describes everyday unpleasantness of mind and heart. People begin to assume that the Buddha is some religious prophet, as Muhammad or Christ was, and that following his “Word” and moral teachings is how to be a Buddhist.


This is not what Buddhism is. There is no such thing as “Buddh-ism.” There is Sasana Buddha (Teachings/Instructions of Buddha) or Dhamma Buddha (The “Way” of Buddha). The –ism itself causes a misunderstanding of Sasana Pribhut. It implies someone who adheres to a certain doctrine. There is no real doctrine to be followed in Sasana Pribhut. The Buddha challenged us to question even his doctrine with our own sense of reason and common sense. What the Buddha instructed or the Way that he presented was the Way for each of us to experience a more pleasant life, to achieve Sambudhi by our own merits during life, and perhaps to experience Nibbana by our own merits after life.


I don’t mean to dictate what Buddhism is to you. I probably know as much about Buddhism as you do. I just might have slightly different perspective… which is all I really have to share.

Buddhanet has a large arsenal of books from the Tipitikas, and other writings that i personally was referred to, which I read. It's better then Wikipedia and generic stuff off of the internet: BuddhaNet - Worldwide Buddhist Information and Education Network

"A Theravada Library" is a site I really like. They mostly have books from the Tipitikas in English. But the reason why I like this site is because they offer different translations by different people. You don't really have to know Pali when you read different translations, because then you get the feel that certain words (such as "Dukkha") are not always apprehended as "Suffering," and based on what other things you know about Dhamma, you can then gain a feel as to which translation expresses the Essence the best on your own: A Theravada Library

The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is a good place to start off. The link gives you various translations.

Ultimately the word only obscures the Essence. Don't get too lost in words. Buddhism, as the Buddha implicates, is best a Praxis and Methodology rather than a belief. Words don't Enlighten. In Theravada, Vibhajjavada, Vipassana, Sila, Samadhi, and Pan~n~a, are the methodology to achieve Sambudhi... besides the Three Jewels, of course :)

Lastly, this is a pretty nice Pali dictionary I use as a secondary reference: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/

Good Luck!
 
Last edited:

billalise

Willie D.
As a teacher for 64 years I have learned that nobody cares what I think or what any other person thinks. What is important is fact. When one is speaking about Biblical items such as Religion, then one should go to the source for a definition. James 1:27 “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” This is what is important
 
Top