Religion is fundamentally divisive. That's not helping!

[icehorse]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

 

[Brickjectivity]

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive.

All things connect to this issue, however religion is part of humanity. You cannot undo it. Therefore the world should not attempt to unify. When you try to unify you actually make division. It is like pulling your fingers out of a finger trap. Unity is the #1 argument used by dictators, by-the-way.

This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

This happens no matter what, so we're going to have to fix problems despite being divided.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

Make people live for 200 years instead of 40-90 years. It takes 40 years just to learn sanity.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

People do not naturally question dogma. It is more natural and more typical to go with the flow. We can ask 90% of the population to become like 5%, but they cannot. We have tried education. Everyone is being educated, yet most people are not critical thinkers. We have tried entertainments: messages through film and theater. We have tried newspapers, TV journalism and free internet news. We have Reddit and all kinds of social media. Nothing has united people or instilled critical thinking worldwide.

 

[Jimmy]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

I believe the Lord has other plans. Thank God!!! I believe all of existence will end before 2080 and begin again around 1980. However, I still do believe in keeping our planet healthy.

 

[Vee]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive.

True, but keep one thing in mind: if you eliminated all the religions in the world right now, none of those problems would disappear. The reason for all the issues you listed is not religion. Bad management of resources comes from greed and corruption and the culprits are bad governments and corporations.
It's easy to say "religion is divisive, therefore religion is the problem". But being distracted from problems far greater than religion won't fix anything.

 

[icehorse]

All things connect to this issue, however religion is part of humanity. You cannot undo it. Therefore the world should not attempt to unify. When you try to unify you actually make division. It is like pulling your fingers out of a finger trap. Unity is the #1 argument used by dictators, by-the-way.

With a few exceptions, I'm not really advocating for unity.

Nothing has united people or instilled critical thinking worldwide.

Well "united" in what ways? For example, we might shift to mostly agreeing to try to save our environment, and have thousands of different initiatives underway at the same time. There is no need to "unify" about "the correct solution", since of course there is no one, correct solution.

As for installing critical thinking, indeed it's not as common as it needs to be, but what's the alternative?

 

[icehorse]

True, but keep one thing in mind: if you eliminated all the religions in the world right now, none of those problems would disappear. The reason for all the issues you listed is not religion. Bad management of resources comes from greed and corruption and the culprits are bad governments and corporations.
It's easy to say "religion is divisive, therefore religion is the problem". But being distracted from problems far greater than religion won't fix anything.

I would agree that we cannot place all the blame at the feet of religion. It's one of many sources of our problems. And - borrowing from Hitchens - if people want to do religion at home, that's fine. But when religion is brought into policy making, problems ensue.

I TOTALLY AGREE that probably the source of MOST of the world's problems stem from greed and corruption! But the greedy and corrupt have a far easier task when the people they're ripping off are magical thinkers, not critical thinkers. They're also easier to rip off when they're involved in in-fighting. So, while religion is not the source of all infighting, it's certainly a major contributor.

 

[Jimmy]

True, but keep one thing in mind: if you eliminated all the religions in the world right now, none of those problems would disappear. The reason for all the issues you listed is not religion. Bad management of resources comes from greed and corruption and the culprits are bad governments and corporations.
It's easy to say "religion is divisive, therefore religion is the problem". But being distracted from problems far greater than religion won't fix anything.

Right. Pollution began with the industrial revolution.

 

[Vee]

I TOTALLY AGREE that probably the source of MOST of the world's problems stem from greed and corruption! But the greedy and corrupt have a far easier task when the people they're ripping off are magical thinkers, not critical thinkers. They're also easier to rip off when they're involved in in-fighting.

Fair point, but in that case we should be advocating for everyone to receive a proper education, with a focus on finance. Of course the day people understand what money really is and how the system works they will ne longer accept to be manipulated and the high powers can't have that. Keeping people ignorant is what allows the system to function. In that level, religion doesn't help, but neither does school and that, for me, is a much bigger problem.

 

[pearl]

"Question authority and question dogma".

I agree. any 'dogma' ought to be developed to meet the ongoing development of knowledge, not to be frozen, stagnant.

 

[icehorse]

Fair point, but in that case we should be advocating for everyone to receive a proper education, with a focus on finance. Of course the day people understand what money really is and how the system works they will ne longer accept to be manipulated and the high powers can't have that. Keeping people ignorant is what allows the system to function. In that level, religion doesn't help, but neither does school and that, for me, is a much bigger problem.

I'm a teacher, I totally agree that our education system is in disarray. But notice that more and more, the religious are trying to even further subvert our education system by skewing it towards dubious religious ideas.

So I'm not claiming that religion is the only source of problems, of course not. This thread is simply claiming that religion is one, important source of our problems.

 

[icehorse]

I agree. any 'dogma' ought to be developed to meet the ongoing development of knowledge, not to be frozen, stagnant.

That feels self-contradictory, can you rephrase that?

 

[icehorse]

I believe the Lord has other plans. Thank God!!! I believe all of existence will end before 2080 and begin again around 1980. However, I still do believe in keeping our planet healthy.

Okay, there's a good example of magical thinking. So what's your advice about how to solve these huge problems?

 

[Jimmy]

Okay, there's a good example of magical thinking. So what's your advice about how to solve these huge problems?

To me it's sooooo far from magical. It is the truth but anyway as far as advice well, just keep on advancing technology to find other ways of transportation etc.

 

[pearl]

That feels self-contradictory, can you rephrase that?

I would not agree that all dogma, as it presents a particular belief system should be tossed out, as the purpose is to define a belief.
But when a current dogma no longer speaks to a new understanding, while it may have been appropriate for one epic of time, may not be meaningful for today.

 

[icehorse]

To me it's sooooo far from magical. It is the truth but anyway as far as advice well, just keep on advancing technology to find other ways of transportation etc.

Okay, how would you compare and contrast your thinking with magical thinking?

 

[icehorse]

I would not agree that all dogma, as it presents a particular belief system should be tossed out, as the purpose is to define a belief.
But when a current dogma no longer speaks to a new understanding, while it may have been appropriate for one epic of time, may not be meaningful for today.

Fair enough. That said, I think it's wise to be skeptical of any new dogma when it shows up.

And that said, I like your idea that dogma is a way for people to define a belief. I think asking people to define their beliefs without using their dogma is a powerful practice.

 

[Brickjectivity]

With a few exceptions, I'm not really advocating for unity.

Well "united" in what ways? For example, we might shift to mostly agreeing to try to save our environment, and have thousands of different initiatives underway at the same time. There is no need to "unify" about "the correct solution", since of course there is no one, correct solution.

As for installing critical thinking, indeed it's not as common as it needs to be, but what's the alternative?

I don't like it, but the most unifying thing in our world today is money. Its the economy. A good economy goes far towards unifying people. It is an elusive target but one worth pursuing.

I don't disagree about there being no alternative to critical thinking. Critical thinking is an affliction that few possess but that all imagine for themselves. It is like we are all little boys born thinking that we are great martial artists.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

A final thought on the above is that the Pauline letters attempt to unify humanity, but people don't read them critically. 1 Corinthians chapters 1 through 4 condemn just about everything churches do today. If you can get people to notice that, you'll be performing a miracle. Do it, and I'll start believing in miracles.

 

[Jimmy]

Okay, how would you compare and contrast your thinking with magical thinking?

Magical thinking is an insult to my beliefs.

 

[Valjean]

All things connect to this issue, however religion is part of humanity. You cannot undo it. Therefore the world should not attempt to unify. When you try to unify you actually make division. It is like pulling your fingers out of a finger trap. Unity is the #1 argument used by dictators, by-the-way.

Dictatorial unity tends to be an us vs them variety. Make people aware of a common enemy, like climate change, and you'll likely get an all-in-this-together response.
The 'natural' tribalism of religion often discourages a dispassionate understanding of our common humanity and interests.

People do not naturally question dogma. It is more natural and more typical to go with the flow. We can ask 90% of the population to become like 5%, but they cannot. We have tried education. Everyone is being educated, yet most people are not critical thinkers. We have tried entertainments: messages through film and theater. We have tried newspapers, TV journalism and free internet news. We have Reddit and all kinds of social media. Nothing has united people or instilled critical thinking worldwide.

We have not tried very hard, and, in many cases, we've actively contributed to propaganda by special interests.
We've scrapped the fairness doctrine. News outlets have been bought up by a handful of large corporations, and tow the corporate line. Network news is no longer a mandated loss-leader, but an entertainment show. Social media pander to users' individual bias. Schools aren't teaching critical thinking skills, logic, or media literacy. Our population is poorly informed on issues, knows not where to find relevant, unbiased information, and is turning to "team spirit" as a facile, decision making modality.

 

[Augustus]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

What is the better unifying category that we all can belong to (and don’t just say human as this is not a unifying category absent an alien invasion)?

We all need markers of identity, and religions are actually far more inclusive than most of the alternatives.

So what is the better and more inclusive marker of identity?