Religion isn't easy!

[Quintessence]

Religion is hard: it prompts you to grapple with the big questions in life from "why am I here?" and "what is real?" to "how should I treat my kinfolk?" and "how should I live my life?" Those who are religious in the sense of pursuing truth and meaning with ardor and zeal spend a great deal of time contemplating these questions and their possible answers. We seek to find answers that work for us, perhaps through a specific tradition of thought or we forge our own road into the unknown.

In your own pursuit of truths, what has been particularly challenging for you? What hurdles did you stumble over time and again on your path, be it theistic or atheistic? How did you overcome the challenge, if you have? What are some things you are still struggling with?

Let's share some tales and perhaps the wisdom of one can help overcome the troubles for another.

 

[Awoon]

I gave up on looking for any truth. I figgered if it cant find me it aint looking.

 

[Skwim]

Religion is hard: it prompts you to grapple with the big questions in life from "why am I here?" and "what is real?" to "how should I treat my kinfolk?" and "how should I live my life?" Those who are religious in the sense of pursuing truth and meaning with ardor and zeal spend a great deal of time contemplating these questions and their possible answers. We seek to find answers that work for us, perhaps through a specific tradition of thought or we forge our own road into the unknown.

Actually, I see it as the other way around. Religions feed on your big questions, attempting to provide answers that appeal to the seeker: And, of course, "Please pass on the collection plate. Thank you. "

 

[Gui10]

I still sometimes think to myself that their might be a god. In any sense, I then tell myself that if their were to be a god, the best way for us to live our lives would be not to think there is a god anyway, so that we can live freely, without the feeling of being supervised, and god would be proud of this independance.

Like if he just had ''put life out there'' to see what would happen, for himself had some questions and we were like his experiment.

 

[Straw Dog]

In your own pursuit of truths, what has been particularly challenging for you? What hurdles did you stumble over time and again on your path, be it theistic or atheistic? How did you overcome the challenge, if you have? What are some things you are still struggling with?

Let's share some tales and perhaps the wisdom of one can help overcome the troubles for another.

Well, I consider myself both a rationalist and a mystic. In the pursuit of creating truths, I often encounter the obstacle of falling to one side or the other. I end up either hyper-rationalizing or over-mystifying my experiences. I resolve the disharmony by realizing a balance between the two that could not be reached by either process on its own. I accept the mean outcome and reject the excess produced in the spiritual art.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Religion is hard: it prompts you to grapple with the big questions in life from "why am I here?" and "what is real?" to "how should I treat my kinfolk?" and "how should I live my life?" Those who are religious in the sense of pursuing truth and meaning with ardor and zeal spend a great deal of time contemplating these questions and their possible answers. We seek to find answers that work for us, perhaps through a specific tradition of thought or we forge our own road into the unknown.

In your own pursuit of truths, what has been particularly challenging for you? What hurdles did you stumble over time and again on your path, be it theistic or atheistic? How did you overcome the challenge, if you have? What are some things you are still struggling with?

Let's share some tales and perhaps the wisdom of one can help overcome the troubles for another.

I've never been religious, and like Skwim I get the exact opposite feeling when it comes to religion.
As an atheist (in this context) I get the feeling that religion provides easy answers to the questions of 'life, the universe and everything'.

I approach these questions from a more scientific stance and while I'm no scientist, I am a science-enthusiast and also a science teacher.
Science, as opposed to religion, takes a much more difficult path in which every claim must be backed up by evidence and the answers you get are much more uncompromising.

No, we did not evolve from apes. We ARE apes, and we evolved from FISH.
No, there is no reason to think that the universe or even the earth was created for us. Rather, the earth, and most definitely the universe would in all likelihood go on perfectly well without us.
No, there does not appear to be any set destiny or 'meaning' to life, which means that you yourself have to figure out what your life is going to be about.
And so on and so forth...

To me, the restrictions put forth by most religions do not appear to have much to do with the search for truth but instead seem arbitrary or common sense (at the time).

 

[Quintessence]

Interesting. To me being religious is definitely about seeking truth, understanding, and meaning; if you're not doing it that way, you're doing it wrong. *laughs* Perhaps this is why to my eyes, many "atheists" are more religious than people who identify with a specific religion.

 

[Cassiopia]

In your own pursuit of truths, what has been particularly challenging for you? What hurdles did you stumble over time and again on your path, be it theistic or atheistic? How did you overcome the challenge, if you have? What are some things you are still struggling with?

For me the thing which is probably the most constant struggle is the seeming dichotomy between rationalism and science on the one hand and faith and instinct on the other.

I have a great regard for science and look for the scientific explanation for everything. Yet I have always had instinctive beliefs and abilities which cannot be accounted for by science.

After Christianity, Buddhism and many years as a pagan witch my path brought me to Satanism which perhaps bridges some of the gaps between science and spirituality better than any other belief system I have experienced so far. However my present path has challenges of it's own, not least being the way Satanism is perceived by others. I have always been very open about my beliefs and have usually found people accept me even if they find my beliefs a bit strange. With Satanism however I need to be much more private and selective in whom I speak to on the subject in order to avoid hostility that could cause significant difficulties for me.

I've never been religious, and like Skwim I get the exact opposite feeling when it comes to religion.
As an atheist (in this context) I get the feeling that religion provides easy answers to the questions of 'life, the universe and everything'.

I approach these questions from a more scientific stance and while I'm no scientist, I am a science-enthusiast and also a science teacher.
Science, as opposed to religion, takes a much more difficult path in which every claim must be backed up by evidence and the answers you get are much more uncompromising.

No, we did not evolve from apes. We ARE apes, and we evolved from FISH.
No, there is no reason to think that the universe or even the earth was created for us. Rather, the earth, and most definitely the universe would in all likelihood go on perfectly well without us.
No, there does not appear to be any set destiny or 'meaning' to life, which means that you yourself have to figure out what your life is going to be about.
And so on and so forth...

To me, the restrictions put forth by most religions do not appear to have much to do with the search for truth but instead seem arbitrary or common sense (at the time).

I respect and understand what you say here, but what if despite everything you "know" and understand through rational logic, you still had an all pervading sense that there was more to everything than science can explain right now?
That is the impulse that some of us have.

 

[Revoltingest]

I gave up on looking for any truth. I figgered if it cant find me it aint looking.

True dat!

 

[jarofthoughts]

I respect and understand what you say here, but what if despite everything you "know" and understand through rational logic, you still had an all pervading sense that there was more to everything than science can explain right now?
That is the impulse that some of us have.

Oh, I am quite certain that there is more to the universe than what we currently know, otherwise there would be no point in doing science.
But that might not have been what you had in mind.

Let me try to illustrate my answer to you with an example:
I was once asked by a theist (he was a Christian but that is of little consequence) what I would think if I personally saw with my own eyes the angel Gabriel descend from the heavens and declare to me that there is indeed a god.

I said that I would conclude either that someone was playing a rather elaborate prank on me, or that I was hallucinating, either due to some drug or poison, or because I had gone mad.
The reason is that we know that people hallucinate (both through scientific literature and personal experience), and we know that people sometimes go mad.
What we don't know is that angels exist (despite the claims of some of the religious).

So pure probability would indicate that it is a much more likely explanation that I would be hallucinating than that there was, in fact, an angel approaching me.

 

[Cassiopia]

Oh, I am quite certain that there is more to the universe than what we currently know, otherwise there would be no point in doing science.
But that might not have been what you had in mind.

Let me try to illustrate my answer to you with an example:
I was once asked by a theist (he was a Christian but that is of little consequence) what I would think if I personally saw with my own eyes the angel Gabriel descend from the heavens and declare to me that there is indeed a god.

I said that I would conclude either that someone was playing a rather elaborate prank on me, or that I was hallucinating, either due to some drug or poison, or because I had gone mad.
The reason is that we know that people hallucinate (both through scientific literature and personal experience), and we know that people sometimes go mad.
What we don't know is that angels exist (despite the claims of some of the religious).

So pure probability would indicate that it is a much more likely explanation that I would be hallucinating than that there was, in fact, an angel approaching me.

Yes I get that, but it isn't quite what I meant.
Sometimes I wonder if those of us who follow a spiritual path have something that people like you just don't. (Or, perhaps as you say, we are slightly mad)!

As I said before I do believe in science and seek scientific explanations where I can. But I always believed in a divinity of some kind, not the christian one or any other really, I just always have had the sense that something else is there. I don't pretend it is rationally explainable; it isn't. But it is as much a part of my experience of life as my own heartbeat. It is part of me.
In addition I have always had some supernatural abilities and I have learned how to practice magic that works. I can find scientific explanations for some of those things but not all.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Yes I get that, but it isn't quite what I meant.
Sometimes I wonder if those of us who follow a spiritual path have something that people like you just don't. (Or, perhaps as you say, we are slightly mad)!

As I said before I do believe in science and seek scientific explanations where I can. But I always believed in a divinity of some kind, not the christian one or any other really, I just always have had the sense that something else is there. I don't pretend it is rationally explainable; it isn't. But it is as much a part of my experience of life as my own heartbeat. It is part of me.
In addition I have always had some supernatural abilities and I have learned how to practice magic that works. I can find scientific explanations for some of those things but not all.

I'm going to refuse the knee-jerk reaction of asking you to provide evidence that your sense of the supernatural is accurate.
This isn't that kind of conversation.
So let's approach this in a different way.

Perhaps it would help if I elaborate somewhat on my view of reality:
I am first and foremost an empiricist, meaning that I only include into my view of reality those things that we have objective scientific empirical evidence for. This also means that me being an atheist is more or less just a consequence rather than a primary cause for my lack of belief in a deity.
That doesn't mean that I don't think there is more to the universe than what we currently have evidence for. Just that I don't include those things until we obtain such evidence to make these things at least probable.
And as mentioned, I have learned to not trust my own senses or emotions completely in this as I am well aware that they at times fail us, and that they are in a very real way, biased.

Currently I am researching and studying neuropsychology, mainly because I'm looking to develop a better way to teach language and mathematical concepts to kids, but along the way I am learning more and more about how our minds interpret the information gathered by our senses, and how our senses are, to a large degree, programmed by our brain.
Our mind is very adaptable and capable of reinforcing our beliefs in many ways, most of which we have little or no conscious control over, and there are good evolutionary reasons why this is so.
In short, I find it fitting to be a little vary and skeptical of both what my senses tell me, and how my brain interprets that information.

That being said, I have no intention of denying anyone the right to believe in what they want. If it works for you, by all means go ahead.
It is only when people posit truth-claims and ask others to follow suit that I have a problem with it, and in that context I have absolutely no respect for anyone's beliefs.
Religion is an idea, and like all ideas it should be treated with the utmost harshness and critique. And if an idea fails to stand up to scrutiny, then down it goes.

 

[hola!]

Religion is hard: it prompts you to grapple with the big questions in life from "why am I here?" and "what is real?" to "how should I treat my kinfolk?" and "how should I live my life?" Those who are religious in the sense of pursuing truth and meaning with ardor and zeal spend a great deal of time contemplating these questions and their possible answers. We seek to find answers that work for us, perhaps through a specific tradition of thought or we forge our own road into the unknown.

actually, i would have thought that religion was hard not because it forces you to ask and contemplate on those big questions, but because it claims to have its answers. this stops us from further contemplation or from accepting the answers of other religions and philosophies. (sorry, i'm not anti-religion, but i just can't deny that religion has that potential.)

i tried finding the truth, and realized the world is our truth; life is the truth, whatever the truth is. i no longer try to search for the truth, i just accept life as it is, warts and all. maybe it just got boring. i don't know. i just try my best to keep an open mind now for whatever life brings. that sounded cheesy, i know.

 

[Quintessence]

actually, i would have thought that religion was hard not because it forces you to ask and contemplate on those big questions, but because it claims to have its answers. this stops us from further contemplation or from accepting the answers of other religions and philosophies. (sorry, i'm not anti-religion, but i just can't deny that religion has that potential.)

Naw, that's okay, I just don't come from a religion that claims to have "the answers" so thinking of things in this way is very strange to me. Dogmatic religions tend more towards this way of thinking, but all the other religions of the world do not. Even those who claim to have "the answers" aren't easy. Having "the answer" and actually understanding it are two completely different things.

 

[Cassiopia]

Perhaps it would help if I elaborate somewhat on my view of reality:
I am first and foremost an empiricist, meaning that I only include into my view of reality those things that we have objective scientific empirical evidence for. This also means that me being an atheist is more or less just a consequence rather than a primary cause for my lack of belief in a deity.

I can't disagree with you. There is absolutely no empirical evidence for the existence of deity that I can think of. Logically atheism makes sense. Perhaps that is one of the reasons I am drawn to Satanism. A lot, if not most Satanists are atheists, or see the divine as an element of one's own potential. This is a position close to my own, it's just that I feel there is something else there as well...

That doesn't mean that I don't think there is more to the universe than what we currently have evidence for.

Okay, while some still believe in a sky daddy, or something similar; many of us who consider ourselves theists have much more complicated ideas of what deity actually is. In that sense, our deity may equate to those parts of the universe (or multiverse) that are not understood at present. So while you may tend to ignore it because empirical science can't describe it yet, we see it as the most fascinating aspect of reality.

Just that I don't include those things until we obtain such evidence to make these things at least probable.
And as mentioned, I have learned to not trust my own senses or emotions completely in this as I am well aware that they at times fail us, and that they are in a very real way, biased.

And yet I have learned by experience exactly the opposite lesson. I have learned that when I trust my instincts, no matter how crazy they seem, things work out much better than when I don't.

Currently I am researching and studying neuropsychology, mainly because I'm looking to develop a better way to teach language and mathematical concepts to kids, but along the way I am learning more and more about how our minds interpret the information gathered by our senses, and how our senses are, to a large degree, programmed by our brain.
Our mind is very adaptable and capable of reinforcing our beliefs in many ways, most of which we have little or no conscious control over, and there are good evolutionary reasons why this is so.
In short, I find it fitting to be a little vary and skeptical of both what my senses tell me, and how my brain interprets that information.

I am willing to accept that maybe 90% of my ideas about deity and maybe 50% of my other spiritual beliefs are internal psychological constructs. The thing is, they work for me.

That being said, I have no intention of denying anyone the right to believe in what they want. If it works for you, by all means go ahead.
It is only when people posit truth-claims and ask others to follow suit that I have a problem with it, and in that context I have absolutely no respect for anyone's beliefs.

I respect that viewpoint. For myself I think I rarely make truth claims unless I can back it up with evidence. I do however make belief or faith claims and try to be honest about the limits of those claims.

 

[Quintessence]

For me the thing which is probably the most constant struggle is the seeming dichotomy between rationalism and science on the one hand and faith and instinct on the other.

That is an interesting one. As someone who is a scientist and quite religious, it's something I've had to deal with as well. I think it works for me because I don't see them as a dichotomy, but simply as different ways of knowing that are not as distinct as it might appear. The one supports the other and vice versa. Scientists aren't like Vulcans from Star Trek. Nobody gets into science without having passion for what they do, and passion relates more to faith and instinct than it does to reason and logic. Just something to think about.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Okay, while some still believe in a sky daddy, or something similar; many of us who consider ourselves theists have much more complicated ideas of what deity actually is. In that sense, our deity may equate to those parts of the universe (or multiverse) that are not understood at present. So while you may tend to ignore it because empirical science can't describe it yet, we see it as the most fascinating aspect of reality.

And when we have empirical reasons to think that such a thing, call it the supernatural or whatever people choose to call it, exists, I will be happy to change my position.
The same goes for any number of things that people believe in; ghosts, souls, faeries, homeopathy, whatever...
That is why my first impulse is usually to ask for evidence when people claim such things are real because when they come up empty the conversation is pretty much over on my part.
But, to paraphrase Tim Minchin; 'You show me that it works and how it works. And when I’ve recovered from the shock I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my...err...thingie'.

And yet I have learned by experience exactly the opposite lesson. I have learned that when I trust my instincts, no matter how crazy they seem, things work out much better than when I don't.

Instincts are good a lot of the time, otherwise they wouldn't be instincts.
Gut feelings are useful when deciding whether to trust someone, for instance, because that is one of the things we've evolved instincts for.
They are, however, somewhat lacking when trying to figure out Cosmology, Quantum Physics and things that take place over deep time.

I am willing to accept that maybe 90% of my ideas about deity and maybe 50% of my other spiritual beliefs are internal psychological constructs. The thing is, they work for me.

Then I think you should ignore my skeptical rantings and keep doing what works for you.
As long as you don't demand that other people believe the same things you do or try to run society based on those beliefs, we won't have a problem.

I respect that viewpoint. For myself I think I rarely make truth claims unless I can back it up with evidence. I do however make belief or faith claims and try to be honest about the limits of those claims.

And how much easier the world would be to live in if everyone did the same.

 

[Cassiopia]

But, to paraphrase Tim Minchin; 'You show me that it works and how it works. And when I’ve recovered from the shock I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my...err...thingie'.

I will have to work on that because that might be worth watching!

And how much easier the world would be to live in if everyone did the same.

Oh yes I agree. Nice chatting with you.

 

[Falvlun]

Religion definitely doesn't have a monopoly on the "seeking answers to the big questions" front. Not religious, but I'm still enthralled with the universe in which I find myself.

Some religions simply spoon-feed the answers, encourage complacency, and definitely discourage further seeking. They almost make those questions, and this universe, boring.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

It's not hard once you realize the answers are relative and don't objectively exist.