"Religion of Peace?"

[J2hapydna]

You realize that I just did what you asked and explained the verse, right?

Don't make your mistakes my problem, I didn't make any in that explanation and don't care about the linguistic nuances of the Arabic word for sorcery, you do because you messed up and accused me of misusing a word I never used.

I wasn't serious about being interested in the difference between magic sorcerer and magician sorcerer and am not interested in you.

Not my problem, don't bother me with your nonsense. Actually do whatever you want, I am putting you on ignore.

You explained it by suggesting the word magic and sorcery doesn't exist in the verse when it obviously does. Then by suggesting Quran 28:48 says that the magic was a fraud. LOL. Are you saying the Quran says Moses and Muhammad were frauds? I don't think so. Then by suggesting that the Quran is saying Moses and Muhammad were sorcerers, but at the same time insisting that the Quran doesn't use the word sorcerer. LOL Yes that really explains a lot (NOT)

Yes putting me on ignore would be a good idea, but you should know that this doesn't mean I can't read your posts and others will not be reading my responses to your posts

 

[hughwatt]

I believe this was specifically about Christians and pagans who had openly declared war on and were committed to eradicating peaceful Muslims and other non Christians. However the psychopathic Umayyads twisted these commands to serve their own political ambitions. No?

I wonder, how did you come to such a conclusion? I can think of a few ways but I may be wrong.

Did a Muslim tell you that? If so, did you check to see if what they said was so according to Islamic sources? Here's the tafsir for both verses:

Surah 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Tafsir surah 9:5 (Then, when the sacred months have passed) then after the day of immolation when the month of Muharram passes, (slay the idolaters) whose treaty is for fifty days (wherever ye find them) whether in the Sacred Precinct or outside it, during the sacred months or at any other time, (and take them (captive)) imprison them, (and besiege them) in their homes, (and prepare for them each ambush) on every road they tread for trade. (But if they repent) from idolatry and believe in Allah (and establish worship) and acknowledge the five daily prayers (and pay the poor-due) acknowledge the payment of the poor-due, (then leave their way free) if they wish to go to the House of Allah. (Lo! Allah is Forgiving) He forgives whoever repents, (Merciful) towards whosoever dies in a state of repentance. Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
​

Here's surah 9:29 with tafsir.

Surah 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Tafsir surah 9:29 (Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture) the Jews and Christians (as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day) nor in the bliss of Paradise, (and forbid not) in the Torah (that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth) do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah's divine Oneness, (until they pay the tribute readily) standing: from hand to hand, (being brought low) abased. Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
​

 

[sun rise]

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Surah 9:5

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Surah 9:29

The Bible has much the same message in various parts of the OT.

 

[JustWondering]

I am an atheist but given a choice, I would feel much safer living in a Christian country than an Islamic country any day.

You do realize that if there wasn't oil in the middle east it'd be as peaceful as any other region on the earth. As long as you follow the rules in a country like Saudia Arabia you'd be perfectly safe. Why is it that Saudia Arabia enjoys a level of prosperity, security and stability that other middle eastern countries can only dream about? Oh, that's right, they willingly go along with anything America wants. While the countries that don't seem to be in constant turmoil. What a coincidence!

 

[hughwatt]

I don't speak any Arabic but I still properly explained the verse you asked me too, you are upset enough about that to try insulting me over a word I never even used?

You don't understand Arabic but you "..still properly explained the verse?!"

Actually:

El, Ilah, are Hebrew and Arabic words meaning deity/god.

Elohim is the proper name of the Hebrew God. From Eloha/Alah (a=e in Hebrew, drop the vowel as originally none were used and you get Alah).

In Arabic it is Al-Ilah or Allah, The God.

All are derived from the Ugaritic "Illu."

So yeah, only in your dreams are they NOT the same God. Abrahamic religions all worship the God of Abraham. You must be some powerful dude if you can decide who God is and isn't without knowing all (or any) of the facts.

And force people to not worship Him with the power of wishful thinking

Islam has the same Prophets, God and shares some stories with Judaism and Christianity both, minus Paul.

And you are just wishing it wasn't true out of bias or biggotry. Any religious scholar or theologian from the 3 religions who isn't a lying extremist will tell you the same thing.

Making you look kind of ridiculous.

You just said a fact wasn't a fact, and your reason is that is what you wish were true.

But Abrahamic means what it means, and the 3 religions acknowledge they share the same God, even if they don't agree on other things.

You have no power to change that unless you choose to be a fanatic, even then it's still a delusion.

Allah is not and was not the name of the God of Abraham. You have no proof for that.

Allah was known and worshipped by the idolatrous pagan Arabs of the day. Muhammad's father (Abdullah - "servant of Allah"), being from the same tribe as Muhammad, the Quraysh tribe, was named after the chief idol of the 360 worshipped in the Ka'ba, Muhammad knew about that god. Allah is not a name. It's two compound Arabic words, al-ilah. The al is the English for the seen in al-Koran, the Koran, recital. The ilah is god but this means nothing if you use it in a general way.

The question is, which and what was Muhammad calling god?

 

[hughwatt]

The Bible has much the same message in various parts of the OT.

That's just being lazy.

 

[Aberamentho]

You do realize that if there wasn't oil in the middle east it'd be as peaceful as any other region on the earth. As long as you follow the rules in a country like Saudia Arabia you'd be perfectly safe. Why is it that Saudia Arabia enjoys a level of prosperity, security and stability that other middle eastern countries can only dream about? Oh, that's right, they willingly go along with anything America wants. While the countries that don't seem to be in constant turmoil. What a coincidence!

I wonder what the difference is between people like us, religious affilations aside, who understand the obvious reasons for the Middle East conflicts and people who think it is actually about "Radical Islamic terrorism?"

It's not even classified that the Bush administration had information ahead of time which they ignored and punished the provider of the information by outing his CIA covert operative wife, that Saddam Hussein didn't have the capability of even acquiring the material to manufacture the (imaginary) wmd's.

Bush joked about it like it was nothing that he duped America into believing Saddam Hussein was a threat by creating a myth about wmd's (or the administration).

Yet people just ignore this. Am I biased myself in thinking they just want justification for their biggotry, or is it a generally logical deduction?

Do they lack the capacity to think for themselves?

I don't know any Islamaphobes personally so I really am curious what they don't get about this obviously corrupt and bogus war on "Terror."

 

[JustWondering]

I wonder what the difference is between people like us, religious affilations aside, who understand the obvious reasons for the Middle East conflicts and people who think it is actually about "Radical Islamic terrorism?"

It's not even classified that the Bush administration had information ahead of time which they ignored and punished the provider of the information by outing his CIA covert operative wife, that Saddam Hussein didn't have the capability of even acquiring the material to manufacture the (imaginary) wmd's.

Bush joked about it like it was nothing that he duped America into believing Saddam Hussein was a threat by creating a myth about wmd's (or the administration).

Yet people just ignore this. Am I biased myself in thinking they just want justification for their biggotry, or is it a generally logical deduction?

Do they lack the capacity to think for themselves?

I don't know any Islamaphobes personally so I really am curious what they don't get about this obviously corrupt and bogus war on "Terror."

The media in America is owned by the same people who profit from these wars. Couple that with the fact that most people (this has been proven by multiple psychological studies) are hardwired to go with the flow. If someone is submerged in a society/environment where a group of people is constantly being called bad and the enemy, 99% of them will just go along with it. The internet can provide information to see through the propaganda, unfortunately you have to go out of your way to actually educate yourself in this manner. Most people are too lazy to do that. Most will just go with the flow. So it boils down to ignorance and the natural inclination of human beings to believe that their tribe is better, stronger, and more righteous than any other tribe.

 

[Aberamentho]

The Bible has much the same message in various parts of the OT.

If you compare the Qur'an to the Bible, a good analogy is the Bible is NC-17 rated, the Qur'an PG.

The truth is the Bible is a very disturbing book with infanticide, genocide, regicide, matricide, patricide, fratricide and incest (Lot's daughters) ethnic cleansing (Joshua at Canaan) rape (Dinah) and disproportionate revenge (at Schechem).

It portrays God as jealous, vindictive, not omniscient (where are you Adam?), unforgiving more than merciful, accepting of human sacrifice (Jepthah's daughter) as a condition of victory in battle, boasting about and reminiscing about forcing the Hebrews to sacrifice their first born (Ezekiel) incites the Babylonians and Persians to war just to redeem Israel despite the atrocities commited by both.

The Qur'an has nothing like any of this, unless a reflection of Moses and Pharoah and the plagues, but that is justified by the enslavement of the Hebrews, even though Pharaoh was not allowed to relent or repent as God hardened his heart whenever he did, which is a serious flaw in the story.

In a flawed book.

The Qur'an is definitely PG to the Bible's rated NC-17

 

[Aberamentho]

The media in America is owned by the same people who profit from these wars. Couple that with the fact that most people (this has been proven by multiple psychological studies) are hardwired to go with the flow. If someone is submerged in a society/environment where a group of people is constantly being called bad and the enemy, 99% of them will just go along with it. The internet can provide information to see through the propaganda, unfortunately you have to go out of your way to actually educate yourself in this manner. Most people are too lazy to do that. Most will just go with the flow. So it boils down to ignorance and the natural inclination of human beings to believe that their tribe is better, stronger, and more righteous than any other tribe.

Ignorance was my guess too, I agree with what you are saying totally and it is not really new information so much as confirmation that I am not insane.

Thanks!!!

I knew I wasn't crazy but I am just trying to be humorous. It actually sux hearing people slander 1.5 billion people, even before I converted it sucked, was part of my decision to convert.

If you beat someone for no reason I will help and join them if possible. And I actually agree with Islam theologically over all other religions too.

But I concur. Salaam. It also might have to do with the decline in quality of education, possibly deliberately.

 

[Aberamentho]

The media in America is owned by the same people who profit from these wars. Couple that with the fact that most people (this has been proven by multiple psychological studies) are hardwired to go with the flow. If someone is submerged in a society/environment where a group of people is constantly being called bad and the enemy, 99% of them will just go along with it. The internet can provide information to see through the propaganda, unfortunately you have to go out of your way to actually educate yourself in this manner. Most people are too lazy to do that. Most will just go with the flow. So it boils down to ignorance and the natural inclination of human beings to believe that their tribe is better, stronger, and more righteous than any other tribe.

But the media is definitely the key to all this. Everyone watches tv and then goes on the internet and in both cases is bombarded with propaganda, forced to sift through garbage just to get a clear picture of reality.

I believe it's the parents responsibility to educate the children, but grown people have no excuse, just because their parents didn't school them to the corruption that exists doesn't grant them immunity from the consequences of ignorance and personal responsibility for their unjustified biggotry.

The news has all but stopped and is leaving it to the internet to spread the most effective propaganda because too many Muslims are on the news to get away with it. Politics pander to fears they invented, nothing new about that.

I would be willing to bet some of the links supplied in this thread are websites run by the intelligence community. If not Zionist or Christian Zionist or radical fundamental Christianity.

Jewish civilians I do not hold responsible as I have received some of the most comforting support from the Jewish community. Same goes for civilian Christians.

It's their leadership that leads them astray if and when.

 

[Aberamentho]

There is a wealth of information here for the avid readers among us.

https://counterjihad.com/women

I am about to see about this one, will report back what I think.

 

[Aberamentho]

There is a wealth of information here for the avid readers among us.

https://counterjihad.com/women

This is from an anti Islamic source using IS as an excuse to, yes, slander all Muslims.

It cites ahistorical references as factual and calls them "the most reliable" and doesn't even explain the definition of Jihad, just plain slanders it like good propaganda does.

Luckily I have provided the correct definition. It's a few pages back but I will put it up again.

 

[Aberamentho]

Here is the definition of Jihad according to the Arabic-English Lexicon of E.W. Lane and Raghib, great scholar of Islam:

The use of or exerting of one's utmost powers, efforts, endeavors or ability in contending with an object of dissaprobation, and this is of THREE KINDS, a visible enemy, the devil, and against one's own self.

The phony definition used by the west, "Holy War" is unknown to the Arabic language and fundamental Islamic teachings.

So absolutely any website that claims this definition of "Holy War" is either deceptive propaganda or the work of a radical fundamentalist Christian or Christian Zionist or just Zionist. If not the intelligence community or even just some nut with no life, no brains.

It doesn't require an in depth investigation, if they don't provide the definition of the word according to the Arabic language or Islam in any language, it's lies.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

taqqiya has been adopted across the board by moslems, and it is more than lying about one's religion. I am not ignorant of islam. I hate a stone age convention that suppresses and brutalizes women, produced a brutal legal system, glorifies discrimination, and is inherently violent. Have YOU read the hadith and koran ?

And yet, you're a Christian.

Oh I'm sorry, you don't believe that the bible is just as brutal, suppresses and brutalizes women, glorifies discrimination and is inherently violent. My mistake. I guess only Christians can interpret their bible as being more of the bronze age crap written in its pages, not Muslims.

 

[shmogie]

Blatant lying now, Shmogie?

Have you not already been proven to be a liar, by me, or do I need to quote and present once more the proof.

Actually he said this before I did that and hasn't been back since. I just have to expose every lie and liar, call me obsessed.

LOL, you are the one who doesn't know what the word coercion means, when used by your prophet, not I. Lets see, stoning women to death for adultery, (not men), chopping hands off, making women wear garbage sacks over them selves, drinking camel pee, halal meat meaning extreme cruelty, you are obsessed, by dark spirits I suspect. You think calling someone a liar actually will make what they said untrue, but it doesn't, the evidence makes it true regardless of your sniveling. You are fooling no one, but yourself. Your "religion" displays itself every day for all to behold. BTW, I warned you, you will be hearing from Facebook. Either act civilized, no matter how difficult for you, or you will no longer be able to use this forum for your crudity, ignorance, and childishness

 

[shmogie]

And yet, you're a Christian.

Oh I'm sorry, you don't believe that the bible is just as brutal, suppresses and brutalizes women, glorifies discrimination and is inherently violent. My mistake. I guess only Christians can interpret their bible as being more of the bronze age crap written in its pages, not Muslims.

Obviously you are speaking of the Old Testament. Well, instead of spewing generalities which mean squat, produce specifics. Your opinion is like a rectum, we all have one

 

[icehorse]

You do realize that if there wasn't oil in the middle east it'd be as peaceful as any other region on the earth. As long as you follow the rules in a country like Saudia Arabia you'd be perfectly safe. Why is it that Saudia Arabia enjoys a level of prosperity, security and stability that other middle eastern countries can only dream about? Oh, that's right, they willingly go along with anything America wants. While the countries that don't seem to be in constant turmoil. What a coincidence!

Unless you're a woman.

 

[icehorse]

Which is what makes them morons.

I'm just wondering how other RFers feel about @Aberamentho 's constant barrage of ad hominems? I'd ask him directly, but I cannot.

 

[shmogie]

I am about to see about this one, will report back what I think.

Do you think anyone really cares what you think ?